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Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: CAB on April 07, 2013, 07:25:28 AM

Title: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: CAB on April 07, 2013, 07:25:28 AM
I am going to help set up & breed some cows for a friend and he is wanting to use this program, and here's the question, Do we have to run the cows through the 2nd time for the 2nd shot of PG or can we give 2 shots @ 2 different locations the first time through the chute? I have been told that if you don't give the 2nd shot that you can just as well use the 7-day program and have also been told/heard that you can go through the chute once with the 2 shots at 2 different locations. Please discuss your opinions & results. Thanks in advance. Brent
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: RAWANGUS on April 07, 2013, 07:33:40 AM
IMO, I would run the cows through a second time.  that is what I do and seems to work fine.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: dhs on April 07, 2013, 09:24:15 AM
I am going to help set up & breed some cows for a friend and he is wanting to use this program, and here's the question, Do we have to run the cows through the 2ND time for the 2ND shot of PG or can we give 2 shots @ 2 different locations the first time through the chute? I have been told that if you don't give the 2ND shot that you can just as well use the 7-day program and have also been told/heard that you can go through the chute once with the 2 shots at 2 different locations. Please discuss your opinions & results. Thanks in advance. Brent
I would be sure to run them through the second time. The timing of the 2 shots is what really makes this protocol work. We started using the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR protocol last fall and have seen significant improvement in conception rates (about 20% higher than the 7-day CO-Synch + CIDR protocol).

Thanks, dhs
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: ai er on April 07, 2013, 09:26:31 PM
Give both injections at the same time, works just fine.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: ejoe326 on April 08, 2013, 08:38:26 AM
I can't remember the specifics but we were told by our vet and the vet running an embryo program the shots need to be given on two different days.  They did not say it would not work but why take the chance when dealing with expensive drugs, etc.  A place running about 300 cows is using the same protocol and they do the extra trip through the chute as well and had incredible conception rates.

When I talk to either vet I will try and remember to ask why.

Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: kccowman on April 08, 2013, 09:16:19 AM
What is the protocol for this 5 day program?
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: CAB on April 08, 2013, 09:39:56 AM
What is the protocol for this 5 day program?



Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: rackranch on April 08, 2013, 10:35:31 AM
It is important to follow the protocol, the 2nd shot is to ensure regression of the corpus luteum allowing proper release of the follicle and thus ovulation.  If you don't, your conception rates will decrease.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: Gargan on April 08, 2013, 10:41:25 AM
What GnRH drug do most of you use?
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: BLRanch on April 15, 2013, 05:25:01 PM
I talked to my professor about this today and she said that she just heard results on a test of this. She said that the results didn't show a noticeable difference in a conception rates in relation to giving the shots at the same time (different injection sites) vs giving the shots 8 hours later (plus or minus 2 hours). She also said it was a multi-state test.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: hntwhitetail on March 19, 2014, 11:53:16 AM
Anymore information on this?  I am thinking of setting a group up in the coming weeks.  Is everyone breeding on 12 hours after standing heat, or just breeding on time??  Has anyone else had expreience w/ giving just the 2 shots of PG in 2 different areas (different sides) vs. running them back in 8+/- 2hrs? 

Also, if I want to be able to breed the cows on the weekend w/ a heavy workload during the week what day am I looking @ starting the CIDR and the first shot to have everything come in on a Saturday / Sunday?

Thanks for any information.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: nativeman on March 19, 2014, 06:01:47 PM
If you give first shot ,what do you do if cow comes in heat day 2 to 6,breed,continue ,forget program.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: CAB on March 19, 2014, 06:26:59 PM
She won't come in heat with the cidr in.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: DakotaCow on March 19, 2014, 08:20:27 PM
I have had the best success with this protocol, we use estrumate exclusivley and usually whatever GnRH is the cheapest per dose. Give a double dose of estrumate when you pull the CIDR, breed heifers 69 hours later and cows at 72. Its off protocol but it works.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: Davidsonranch on March 20, 2014, 09:48:45 AM
When using the 5 day program, is the time you AI at 69-72 hours from the first shot of PG or the second shot 8 hours later?  Per the diagram its after the first shot?

Also for a "normal" sized cow what dosages are people using for the 5 day sync?  2cc of GnRH when putting in CIDRS, and 5-7 cc's at each of the two PG shots, and another 2cc of GnRH at breeding?
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: nativeman on March 20, 2014, 07:01:55 PM
how many days after calving do you start,45 days?
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: Davidsonranch on March 20, 2014, 07:16:27 PM
I'm super intersted in trying the 5 day instead of the 7 day, but running the cows through the chute yet another time worries me.  Super intersted to hear if the two shots at once method is working.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: hntwhitetail on March 20, 2014, 08:01:38 PM
Does anyone see any difference in using Estrumate vs. Lutalyse?
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: HGC on March 20, 2014, 10:21:38 PM
I have used a 5.5 day CIDR sync for 12 years.  I did it out of necessity because of work.  I would put CIDR's in Saturday morning, pull them Thursday after work and then breed off of standing heat all weekend.  I only ever gave 1 shot of lutylase when I pulled the CIDR's.  Has worked great for years.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: ai er on March 21, 2014, 11:17:25 PM
This will be my fourth year doing the 5 day protocol. I give 10 ml of prostaglandin (Lutalyse) at time of pulling CIDR. It works awesome. I breed off heats, any not bred by 72hours, gets bred with an injection of GnRH. Averaging about 75% bred to AI. I can set up the cows for one weekend. Don't have time to heat check with kids activities. I've been impressed.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: ejoe326 on March 21, 2014, 11:52:36 PM
We do not see the strength of heats with Lutalyse. More importantly a few years ago we tried them side by side and the Estrumate cows settled better.  I can't remember the percentages but it was enough for me.

I haven't googled it yet but do you have the information on the study? 

Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: nativeman on March 25, 2014, 05:20:10 PM
Cant believe after the winter we have all had that I am getting ready to sync. cattle but think I will try 5 day, I have always done just gnrh and 7 day later lut.with mixed results.will trust u guys.Will do anything that has calved 45 plus days.If take that should be calves say MIDDLE OF JANUARY.We must all be die hard cattle guys/gals.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: Davidsonranch on March 25, 2014, 06:49:25 PM
ai er, do you give everything a 2cc shot of GnRh at time of AI, both the natural heats and the ones that go the full 72?  Last year I gave everything the 2cc shot of GnRh both ones I saw come in heat and the ones I just bred between 66-72 hours. Am I just wasting it on the ones I actually see in standing heat?
As a working man, consumed by kids activities, sports, etc.  I like the idea of the 5.5 day mentioned above.  CIDR's on a Sat.  Pull them on a Thurs night and breed most likely on the weekend if I read it right.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: ai er on March 25, 2014, 07:09:28 PM
ai er, do you give everything a 2cc shot of GnRh at time of AI, both the natural heats and the ones that go the full 72?  Last year I gave everything the 2cc shot of GnRh both ones I saw come in heat and the ones I just bred between 66-72 hours. Am I just wasting it on the ones I actually see in standing heat?
As a working man, consumed by kids activities, sports, etc.  I like the idea of the 5.5 day mentioned above.  CIDR's on a Sat.  Pull them on a Thurs night and breed most likely on the weekend if I read it right.


Dr. Mike Day, reproductive physiologist at Ohio State has done lots of research with this method. He was the one who told me about it. He said that giving the 10 ml dose of prostaglandin was not statistically different than the two separate injections. Now back to your question. I posed the same question to him about the GnRH. He said if I saw a good standing heat, I could probably skip the GnRH injection at breeding. He said it won't hurt to give it, but can save  you a little money.  I go by the "if in doubt, give it" method.  The GnRH will force an ovulation.

Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: hntwhitetail on March 25, 2014, 07:18:48 PM
Wow, lots of good information.  Thanks guys!   <rock>  Now I'm wondering what is everyone's cost per cow not including the semen for the 5.5 day protocol.  Thanks again in advance.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: pweaver on March 26, 2014, 09:43:32 AM
I have tried different protocols and can't really say one is noticeably better than another.  But maybe I don't give them enough chances or repetitions.  From what I am hearing, I think this is going to my protocol this year:
Saturday a.m. - GnRH and CIDR
Thursday p.m. - Remove CIDR, 4 cc Estrumate
Breed on standing heat or 72 hrs. after removing CIDR w/ GnRH at each breeding.
I have taken a little bit from several protocols.  So how does it sound?  Has anyone incorporated a shot of Lute or Estrumate 3 days before CIDR implant?
What about giving a shot of Lute a month or so before scheduled breeding, maybe when vaccinating and deworming, to get the uterus cleaned up and everything started?  I have always wondered if jumping in and using any of the CIDR protocols was trying to get cows bred when they weren't cycling yet.  Like trying to breed on a first cycle non-fertile heat.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: Davidsonranch on March 26, 2014, 09:49:44 AM
Yes, thanks everyone for the great info.  I'm going for it this year. 
This will be my plan (to help with my work schedule)

NOTE:  I FIXED THE DOSES PER MY ORIGINAL POST!

Saturday morning put in CIDRS and 2cc of Cystorellin (GnRh)
Thursday evening pull CIDRS and 4cc of Estrumate (Pg) Maybe 2cc's in two locations
Watch for standing heat Friday-Sunday and breed accordingly (am/pm rule)
If no heat noticed will breed everything else between 66-72 hours (Sunday afternoon)
Will also give 2cc of Cystorellin (GnRh) at time of AI
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: ai er on March 26, 2014, 11:09:02 AM
Yes, thanks everyone for the great info.  I'm going for it this year. 
This will be my plan (to help with my work schedule)

Saturday morning put in CIDRS and 2cc of Cystorellin (GnRh)
Thursday evening pull CIDRS and 10cc of Estrumate (Pg)
Watch for standing heat Friday-Sunday and breed accordingly (am/pm rule)
If no heat noticed will breed everything else between 66-72 hours (Sunday afternoon)
Will also give 2cc of Cystorellin (GnRh) at time of AI


Estrumate's normal dosage is 2 cc, I think.  If it is, you only want 4 cc.

Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: Davidsonranch on March 26, 2014, 07:18:09 PM
Thanks I will check.  I was just assuming it was the same as Lute. 
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: bigby535 on March 26, 2014, 09:58:53 PM
 Estrumate box says 2ml IM.   Lutalyse insert says 5ml IM.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: DakotaCow on March 26, 2014, 11:09:24 PM
The key to any program is the attention to detail. Keep CIDRs as clean as possible going in, use 1.5 inch needle for GnRH. Switch needles when they get dull. Also keep your GnRH cold, I have seen places that have a cooler for beer and neglect the hundreds of dollars worth of drugs. Yes the multi dose syringes are handy but at what cost? We have gone to using single dose lure locks for our hormones. Hint, theres 11 doses in a 10 dose bottle usually as its adjusted for a certain margin of error and I can load 5 syringes and hit cows in the alley. As with many things slow is smooth, smooth is fast.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: Davidsonranch on March 27, 2014, 09:12:41 AM
Thanks everyone for the heads up on the doses for Estrumate vs. Lute.  I might have screwed that up. 
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: nativeman on April 13, 2014, 05:44:01 PM
Just bred four cows on five day program.Two had patches off at the five day mark when pulled cidr,put new on cause didn't know what that was about. when bred at 70 hours all cows had get feel heat with one cow in heat heavily previous night,two not showing no heat and one coming in,bred all with GNRH shot.will do some more next weekend so ill update in 283 days.Still cant believe im breeding for calving in February again after this past winter.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: cpubarn on April 13, 2014, 06:39:46 PM
My calculator says your breeding for January, but Good luck anyway!
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: Barry Farms on April 13, 2014, 08:57:51 PM
Just bred four cows on five day program.Two had patches off at the five day mark when pulled cidr,put new on cause didn't know what that was about. when bred at 70 hours all cows had get feel heat with one cow in heat heavily previous night,two not showing no heat and one coming in,bred all with GNRH shot.will do some more next weekend so ill update in 283 days.Still cant believe im breeding for calving in February again after this past winter.

I bred some Saturday and they are due January 19, 2015. Next group will be AI'd for February 2, 2015 calves. Decided to breed three separate groups of cows this year so that we have 'insurance' .If group 1 calves in a blizzard its better than having all of them in a blizzard.... Two groups of about 8 cows and 1 group of 13 heifers.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: pweaver on May 12, 2014, 09:35:36 PM
Used the 5 1/2 day this past week like I had planned and here are the results.  Pulled Cidr's with 4 cc. Estrumate Thurs. evening on five cows.  Nothing till Sun. at 2 p.m. (about 66 hours post Cidr) with one cow standing in pretty hot heat.  We TAI Sun. eve. about 7 (72 hrs. post Cidr) two cows that were showing nothing at all and two others that were wanting to mount but neither stood.  And we watched till dark plus had patches on them.  This morning, Mon. at 7, we bred the one in heat Sun. p.m. and rebred the two showing some activity.  My wife is our AI tech and she said four of them felt good with the fifth a hard breed, but she always is.  Crooked cervix.  Does this scenario sound like the norm?  Anything you would have done different?
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: hntwhitetail on May 12, 2015, 01:28:19 PM
So.. what is everyone's thoughts 1 year later?  I'll be setting up some heifers and cows in the upcoming weeks for a few people. 
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: cowpoke1977 on November 06, 2019, 11:58:00 PM
We wanted to set up some cows for this protocol on Saturday. One of them got in with the herd bull and got bred about 3 weeks ago. Should I give her a shot of Lute tommorow before we put CIDR in Saturday?
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: shortybreeder on November 07, 2019, 05:52:35 AM
We wanted to set up some cows for this protocol on Saturday. One of them got in with the herd bull and got bred about 3 weeks ago. Should I give her a shot of Lute tommorow before we put CIDR in Saturday?
You're going to need more then 48 hours between the Lut and CIDR. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but here's the general idea behind how the products work: the female develops a CL every 3 weeks. It goes through its growth cycle, and when she isn't pregnant she goes through Estrus ~3 days after the CL "matures." If she becomes pregnant, she maintains the CL (but now it has a different name that escapes me). The idea behind a CIDR is that it provides the hormone (prostaglandin F-2alpha) which mimics pregnancy and maintains the CL in the state just before estrus would occur. By hitting the pause button, you can synchronize a group of heifers at different phases because they will still develop their follicles to that point without going further. The Lutalyse causes the CL to lyse (think of a pimple popping), and then a non-pregnant female will be in estrus 3 days later ready to breed--or it will terminate the pregnancy that was being maintained.

Now for why your plan won't work: if you Lut her 2 days before the CIDR goes in, you'll have 2 things working against you. The less likely--maybe the Lut isn't active enough and the CIDR presents PGF2A which maintains the pregnancy anyways (unlikely but possible). Or, the most likely, she will be at the wrong point in her cycle for the CIDR to work. It will take her more than just the 5 days of the CIDR to develop a follicle that will be ready to be bred.

Now before anyone rips me apart on semantics, I'm sure some of the terminology (when it's a CL vs follicle) above isn't 100% on the mark because it's been a long while since I've researched this, but that's my best shot at conveying the general concepts.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: cowpoke1977 on November 07, 2019, 06:24:44 AM
Thank you for the reply. I thought that was the case. I might just leave her alone and see if she comes back in heat again. If she doesn’t, score one for the herd bull.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: Steve123 on November 07, 2019, 11:58:00 AM
You have to be at about day 11 before you get a CL that will regress.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: CAB on November 07, 2019, 12:34:40 PM
Here's what I would do, give the bred a shot of Lute, ( I actually prefer Estrumate ), I think that the cow will come in approximately 3 days laters. I would breed her on that heat cycle as I normally would. I don't think that the embryo has attached itself to the uterine wall yet. If you stop to think about it, the pregnancy has taken the place of the cidr.
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: shortybreeder on November 07, 2019, 12:59:09 PM
Here's what I would do, give the bred a shot of Lute, ( I actually prefer Estrumate ), I think that the cow will come in approximately 3 days laters. I would breed her on that heat cycle as I normally would. I don't think that the embryo has attached itself to the uterine wall yet. If you stop to think about it, the pregnancy has taken the place of the cidr.
This could very well work.. worst case you're out 1 unit of semen and the cost of the Technician but you saved the cost of a CIDR/shots
Title: Re: Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program
Post by: CAB on November 07, 2019, 06:07:47 PM
It'll work very well if the pregnancy is not too far along. 3 weeks will have a very good chance of working. I've done it in the past and it worked well.