Opinions on this bull

Just wanted to know what you thought about this Simmental bull.. Included a sale picture and a promotional picture that just came out. 3 months in between pictures.

LinZ

I'm diggin that second pic of him for sure.  Nice dude.

I like his looks too. I'm considering using him next fall, his EPDs are ok, but I sure do like him phenotypically.

Also, did you see the pic of NLC Upgrade in this month's issue of The Register. He sold for $50,000 in the NLC & 3C sale. I really really like him.

The second picture has been digitally edited. I know most photos are now a days. They cleaned up his neck a tick if you look close you will see it. The first picture he looks deep sided but shorter bodied. Plenty of flesh in the throat latch but that is common for the Simmi's (as you know LinZ).

Can someone possibly post up a pic of Upgrade's sire? They sold shares of Upgrade, so I was wondering what his sire looked like. Sire is nicknamed "Ollie". Brent

I don't think I'm going to use him b/c of breeder and the enhancement is pretty bad...I'm not  a fan of neck leather in the least. I do like the Upgrade bull's picture alot. Also, does anyone know why they change this bull's name from Guarantee to Movin Forward?

LinZ

Good eye on the bad photoshop.

Actually, not a bad photo shop job.  It's simply a fabulous example of using the right lighting, correct angle, a good fit job and putting on some body condition.  Or more simply put, it's a picture taken by a true professional.  I would say that there is more than three months difference between the pictures but the biggest difference is the lighting and angle!  If you take many cattle pictures you would know what the difference in the lighting on the neck and the front end will do.  Also it will make a world of difference on the appearence of the body depth/length. Until you have taken about a 5000 professional pictures, which would be a fraction of what Sneed has taken over the years, I don't think that you should condemn a bull owner and his or her photographer for unethical practices.

Here's a pic of Olie from the ABS global.

I'm not condemning the breeder based on the picture...another story. However..even though I realize 3 months can change a bull alot and lighting can also..the nearside rear leg doesn't look right..can anyone point out why? I really just want to know..not trying to be a smarty.

LinZ

Sorry but my paint graphics aren't the best. However, if you look especially in the second picture at his hock and then his pastern you will see the pastern UNDER the hock. Below in red is the fault and then in yellow is what I would like to see with him. That bend or curviture will not be an advantage when he stands to breed with his weight on his back two legs. And if he passes it on to his progeny (which likely could be the case) That will not be anything good for the cows getting bred. Sickle hocked. Either way if I was the owner I'd trash that first picture. I probably would have called Sneed the first time around though.




EDIT for bad grammar and picture problems

Last I knew you couldn't get Ollie semen from ABS they were out and 3C didn't have enough for themselves and Ollie was out on pasture.

Trust me, that bull's hind leg was not "photo-shopped" to make it look that way.  That blame goes EITHER to the fitter who didn't really have much hair to work with and maybe wanted the bull to appear like he had some angle to his pasterns OR that is simply how the bull is made.  Nobody with the experience that Mark Sneed has would deliberately photoshop a leg to look like that.  I know for a fact that photo was NOT photo shopped by Mark Sneed.  That is simply the best picture you could possibly get of that bull and you can credit that to the fitter, ear person, photographer and the perfect angle of the sun at that moment in time.

The bull was not fitted in the picture.

Juli N a/k/a common sense said:

Trust me, that bull's hind leg was not "photo-shopped" to make it look that way.  That blame goes EITHER to the fitter who didn't really have much hair to work with and maybe wanted the bull to appear like he had some angle to his pasterns OR that is simply how the bull is made.  Nobody with the experience that Mark Sneed has would deliberately photoshop a leg to look like that.  I know for a fact that photo was NOT photo shopped by Mark Sneed.  That is simply the best picture you could possibly get of that bull and you can credit that to the fitter, ear person, photographer and the perfect angle of the sun at that moment in time.

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I never claimed the leg was photoshopped. I was just responding to this post:

..the nearside rear leg doesn't look right...can anyone point out why?

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Mark Sneed is probably one of the better photographers with maybe the exception of Don Birk I know. Not saying anything bad about his work.

First of all let me say that this is Mark Sneed, I do not hide behind phony names so you will know who is writing this and I am not afraid to say my name. Second of all this might be the most enlightened group of evaluaters I have ever seen or heard,  I have been in this business for 30 years and every time I come on one of these forums, I seem to learn a great deal about things that I have never heard.  I am certainly not sure that I have the intelegence to join this group, but as my name and work seems to get thrown around here a great deal by people afraid to sign their name, I thought I should say something at this point. 

First of all when you start comparing the two pictures, you need to use a little common sense.  I was contacted to photo the bull after ABS had been involved in the purchase of him.  They wanted to wait a couple of months to re picture him so that he would gain some maturity and weight, as any yearling bull should be expected to do.  They felt that would be a much more accurate representation of him than the original picture.  Second, I believe Chris Mitchell is one of the best photographers in the business, I love his work, but we take two different styles of photos.  Chris gets lower and takes more of an upshot angle than I do and his look a little taller and growthier from that standpoint.  I take a little more straight on angle as I believe that shows more volume and capacity, maybe not as much testicle developement as Chris's do though.  Neither one is wrong, and neither one is right, just different styles. Chris's photos will also show them to be a little deeper necked from that angle.  When Chris took his photo of this bull, he was in a bull sale along with probably 60 other bulls and he got no special treatment.  When I photoed the bull he was at Hawkeye, I had hired JR Spears, one of the better clipper/fitters in the business to come in for two days to work on a few bulls to get them washed, clipped and presented properly for the pictures.  He was also there to properly feed and hay this bull to get him as full as possible for the picture.  Before the bull was photoed by me he was washed, blown out, and though he was not fitted as for a show, the bottoms of his legs were pulled back to accent the bone structure which was done from the back side so that it did not show up in the picture.  As for this definition of what you are talking about his hock to pastern set and all, I guess I am not smart enough to understand all of that, all I can tell you is that that is how he was standing and that is what his back leg looked like, and that is about it.  Chris did not have the advantage that I did of presentation, as they were working on a large group of bulls with time restraints I am sure.  It took about 45 minutes for me to get this picture of this bull to get him angled in the light properly and to the right slope in the pen, Chris probably had ten minutes and I know where he would have been doing the photo work on the bull and it certainly is not as nice a pen to work in as what I had.

You can set and analyze these photos all you want, I don't really care.  If you would ask, you are more than welcome to come watch me process these photos anytime you want, but then I guess you would have to lose your disguise and admit who you are and I doubt that is going to happen.  It is easy to be brave and bold in your statements when you are hiding like a little girl, huh, maybe you are though, on here there is no way of telling.  I really believe you just need to find something to do with your life that might be more worthwhile.

I am not sure there is much more that I can say about this, but if you have any other questions, i would be glad to answer them for you with the ability that I have.

Thanks and have a great day.

Mark

Thank you for responding. I am not trying to hide who I am, my name is my name and I also have everything listed including website and contact info under my profile. I realize the bull can change alot with more feed  and time. I also understand you had better conditions for taking the photo. I was however questioning his picture especially the back legs and you have helped to answer those questions. I also don't know you personally as I wish I did but I think any time someone in involved in this business and especially with technology being how it is and some having the ability to enhance pictures it's just natural that people question. I meant nothing as a dig at you personally but I was at one time looking at the bull to use...and was wanting opinions...this I do not consider a waste of time.

Lindsey Ives.

I dont think anyone was trying to take a shot at you or your work, people always are going to question 2 different pics of a bull, donor, calf, etc., even if the pics are taken at different times under different circumstances. With todays technology photoshopping is not uncommon. But when it comes down to it when people see the calf in real life they will know wether or not they like it. Oh by the way totally of topic, thanks for donating to the druckenmillers, I've been trying to thank everyone I know who donated to the auction, because personally I think they deserve a thank you from everyone for going above and beyond!!!  (clapping)
                                                                                                      Chris Cummings

The real point is this, that in America anymore, just as in this case it is assumed guilty until proven innocent.  I am not naive to the fact of what goes on in my profession by any means.  It is a real issue.  Just as in fitting at shows though the ones making the accuasations are quite often but not always the ones actually doing what they are talking about.  There are times, and I am not speaking of this bull, that people will walk a bull, cow, whatever in front of me wanting a promotional shot of their cattle and the only shot they need is one between the eyes of the one to be pictured in all reality.  These people are not realistic enough to know that all they have is just a bovine, but when they hire me, they pay me good money to come do a job.  The Bulls did not pay Micheal millions to try to score 15 pts per night, they expected 40 pts per night.  Much the same is expected of me when I show up.  If people wanted a family snap shot of their cattle, I would be out of work.  God has given me some talent and ability to do something that is not an easy profession.  It is much like clipping.  There is a huge reason that the Tracy Goretska, Travis Otterstad, Brandon Jones, and so many other great clippers/fitters are so good, they do it every day of their lives.  This is all I do, I have not had a home for over four years.  I take photos somewhere every day and hopefully you get better from doing that. It takes a great deal of understanding of what angles, slopes, lighting and cameras and camera lens to use in each situation to enhance the individual as much as possible.  I don't get hired to take "fair" pictures of animals, but to capture the best three seconds of their life.  That is my goal for my customers in every case that I have.  My company will not be based on anything else and that is the way we are going to do our work so it would be nice if many of you would appreciate effort and ability and not throw stones as soon as you see something that you don't fully understand.  Many are guilty, but certainly not everyone is.

Mark

cwbyup62 said:

  It is easy to be brave and bold in your statements when you are hiding like a little girl, huh, maybe you are though, on here there is no way of telling.  I really believe you just need to find something to do with your life that might be more worthwhile.

I am not sure there is much more that I can say about this, but if you have any other questions, i would be glad to answer them for you with the ability that I have.

Thanks and have a great day.

Mark

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You get offended over people bashing your work, but in your rebuttal you manage to offend an entire gender.

I'm just sayin...

Ellen Tom
Formerly a little girl