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Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Optimal Regional Phenotypes
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2014, 03:19:50 PM »
I do not care for that bull at all.  He is very restricted in his heart- he's passed this on to each of those calves- though, it isn't as noticeable in the bottom calf.   Notice how EXT's bottom line starts to come up from the navel and then breaks back down to his chest floor between his front legs.  This other bull's just keeps going upwards.  This is the very first thing I look at in a bull:  Do they have adequate heart girth. EXT does, this other bull does not.   This is absolutely not a bull who excels on a forage ration. 
And then his topline: I want to see no part of a bulls rear third higher than he is at the withers.  Imagine a level line that starts at the withers and extends to the rear. The bull's top line should follow this line. Not only does the Argentine bull's hips sit much higher than this line, but the center of his back is likely 6" beneath it.  This is reflected in these calves as well.  Their top lines aren't nearly as bad but in every one of them, you see the hips setting up higher than they are at the withers. 
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Offline cowboy_nyk

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Re: Optimal Regional Phenotypes
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2014, 03:33:07 PM »
XBAR,
I appreciate what you are saying.  The picture maybe accentuates those characteristics.  About 3/4 of my cowherd is related to EXT so I'm glad that you like him so much.  I like them all year, except calving time.

I disagree with your assertion that he would not do well in a forage based environment.  The calves are exceptionally feed efficient.  The heifer calves are by far the easiest fleshing group and the bull calves eat noticeably less than their peers yet are gaining the same.  A profile picture leaves a lot to the imagination.  His width of chest is truly remarkable for an Angus.

Attached a different picture.  Heart girth looks better, tail-head...meh.  I still like the progeny and I am glad we used him some.  I don't think he is a breed changer, just a useful breeding piece.  I also attached a pic of his Dam.

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Optimal Regional Phenotypes
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2014, 04:25:02 PM »
You're a good enough cattlemen to recognize why they chose to picture them how they did in those two pictures. It looks like a profile pic until you look at the elevation of his front feet relative to his rear. They have created a picture angle that conceals his top line.  I agree his chest looks MUCH better in this pic- though, at least to me, chest DEPTH is substantially more important than width. 

The cow, that is one of the most awkward picture angles I've ever seen.  It's my inclination that they chose this angle because of how much higher her hips set than her withers.
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Offline cowboy_nyk

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Re: Optimal Regional Phenotypes
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2014, 08:15:23 AM »
I don't want to hijack Librarian's thread so this is my last post on this. 

I stalled beside Patron at Agribition two years ago for eight days.  I walked him up and down the alley a number of times.  I saw him wet, fitted and everything in between.  I am fully aware of his limitations and his good qualities.  With that information, I decided that as an outcross sire, with exceptional muscle and width, he was a breeding piece that could help my program.  I fully realize the second picture is staged, but so is the picture of EXT. 

The cow pic was a cellphone pic that a friend sent to me.  No nefarious intentions.  He was in Argentina helping Tres Marias and sent me a cell phone pic because I asked for one.  She was a National Champion female that year so I doubt she's as bad as you insinuate.

Offline aj

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Re: Optimal Regional Phenotypes
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2014, 08:48:37 AM »
The milk level is a Major part of stayability......in say a .........sawdust and sand diet.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline Stockman Genetics

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Re: Optimal Regional Phenotypes
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2014, 01:28:58 PM »
I guess I couldn't disagree more with being deep chested on the side relating to foraging ability, overall capacity is what you are after and last time I checked that was L X W X H. Wide chested cattle (not because the are open topped and blown out in the shoulder) but truly wide chested cattle have an advantage on forage. Obviously they can't be hound gutted but couple that chest width with upper rib shape and ADEQUATE depth you have a winner. In general too many people are going after really sappy bellied cattle and it is merely a looks thing, if you watch those cattle walk you can tell they weren't built to be that way.

Offline librarian

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Re: Optimal Regional Phenotypes
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2014, 01:30:08 PM »
Cowboy, don't worry, I am learning a lot from your post and appreciate the conversation.  I have always been confused about heart girth and that restriction between naval and chest floor.  where does a pinched heart girth show itself?
I am trying to learn how to sort bull calves from calves that should be steered, so seeing what I am looking at is pretty important.
This is a calf I liked because he was very straight across the top and seemed to have plenty of heart girth and rump.  Am I reading that right? I am used to looking at his sire, who has very little restriction, so I have thought that there should be none or none other than what the gut causes.
Also I have had a hard time differentiating pinched heart girth from wedge in heifers.  I culled some Devon crosses for looking pinched, but perhaps it was just wedge. In those days I thought a cow should be shaped like a refrigerator.  The pictures really help--one can get only so far on intuition.
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Optimal Regional Phenotypes
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2014, 03:17:05 PM »
I guess I couldn't disagree more with being deep chested on the side relating to foraging ability, overall capacity is what you are after and last time I checked that was L X W X H. Wide chested cattle (not because the are open topped and blown out in the shoulder) but truly wide chested cattle have an advantage on forage. Obviously they can't be hound gutted but couple that chest width with upper rib shape and ADEQUATE depth you have a winner. In general too many people are going after really sappy bellied cattle and it is merely a looks thing, if you watch those cattle walk you can tell they weren't built to be that way.

5 x 3 x 4 , 10 x 3 x 2, 12 x 5 x 1.. etc.. all equal 60 and mathematically all may have the same volume but you know that doesn't translate to all of them having the same foraging ability.   I will agree, in general, wide chested cattle have an advantage on forage.. but that's not an absolute.  I can post picture after picture of cattle who are bulldog chested but are so tight and restricted in the heart and gut that they are worthless.  Take the classic picture of CF Trump for example.  That bull is the poster child for wide chested, tubular shaped, hard doing cattle.  In terms of importance, Depth is by far the most important.  Followed by width, and then length.  No amount of width or length can compensate for a shallow bodied animal.  If you disagree with me, post some representative examples of cattle that are deep chested but also tight hearted and gutted.  I don't think you can do it.  I know I can post picture after picture of cattle that are wide chested but tight hearted and tight gutted thus making them terrible forage converters. 


I think you've hit the nail on the head w/ upper rib shape. If you or anyone else knows anything about measuring circles (the chest barrel), you know you cannot increase the central angle (upper rib shape) without also increasing the diameter of the circle.  When you increase upper rib shape, it is implicit that you increase depth of body.   If you cut a circle in half, obviously the bottom must match the top. 

I agree with you about the sappie bellied cattle and I've commented on this before.  People, in the show ring specifically, are breeding cattle that are deep bellied but shallow chested.  When you increase the gut depth relative to the chest floor depth, it creates the illusion that the cattle have much more guts than they really do.  Look at the bottom line of the "Armada" bull over to your left above the cattleMax ad. Perfect example. Relative to his chest floor, he looks HUGE gutted, but I guarantee you if you put a tape on him, you'll see that the circumference of his belly isn't all that big; its the shallowness of his chest floor RELATIVE to the depth of his barrel that creates this illusion.
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Offline cowboy_nyk

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Re: Optimal Regional Phenotypes
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2014, 03:38:46 PM »
I think Mill Iron sees what I was getting at.  The true forage types that I have seen have that wide base and wide chest floor that is lacking in many of the popular bloodlines in North America.  Just look at any OCC bred cows.  Granted, the animal must have adequate depth and rib shape as well, but that is more commonly accessible with "run-of-the-mill" bloodlines.  Something like SAV Bismarck comes to mind.  Exceptional depth and rib, not so wide in base or chest.

Librarian, from what I can tell, that bull looks fine behind the shoulder.  Trust your eye.  If he looks thick, he probably is thick. 

Offline Stockman Genetics

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Re: Optimal Regional Phenotypes
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2014, 03:58:31 PM »
I don't mean to pick on herefords but here are two that are "deep chested" and really tight in their heart girth.

Offline Stockman Genetics

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Re: Optimal Regional Phenotypes
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2014, 04:04:02 PM »
I know you could just list a couple of exotic cattle breed websites and show countless photos of wide chested cattle that are poor forage converters, I agree 100%. That is why I quantified my statement with the hound gutted part. A lot of this goes back to production as well, they do not have to be wide chested if they are small and have no muscle. They  could just be deep and get a long just fine.

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Optimal Regional Phenotypes
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2014, 04:19:30 PM »
Maybe there's where the confusion lies: Bismark doesn't come close to what I would consider exceptional rib.  Not to mention he's wedge shaped the wrong way. (Like most show bulls) His son Brilliance is even worse in this regard.

Librarian's white bull has the ideal phenotype. He is extremely deep chested and has good shape to his rib.  He is not a wide based bull and is average boned at best.  Undoubtedly, when you increase base width, you're going to get into cattle w/ more bone.  With the exception of cows that don't milk enough to feed a cat, when you add bone you create a harder doing animal.  The easiest fleshing cattle I've been around are actually a little narrow based. They're finer boned but have a huge barrel on them w/ exceptional upper rib.  The cow in the bottom picture is a perfect example of this.  Notice her bottom line and her exceptionally well laid shoulder. She has a nice wedge shape and because her shoulders are laid so smoothly, the transition from her ribcage is almost unnoticeable. 
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Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Optimal Regional Phenotypes
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2014, 04:22:22 PM »
I don't mean to pick on herefords but here are two that are "deep chested" and really tight in their heart girth.

Neither of those bulls are deep chested.  That's the dewlap you're seeing there buddy.
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Offline Stockman Genetics

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Re: Optimal Regional Phenotypes
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2014, 05:16:43 PM »
They both have a lot of dewlap but the actual part of their chest comes down to about their knee, which is about where ext is, difference is ext has forerib to go with it.

Offline librarian

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Re: Optimal Regional Phenotypes
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2014, 06:56:16 PM »
These are the things that confound me.  This thread started with a photo of my all around best performing cow, 496.  She is a daughter of 96, pictured here. 96 is an old cow, born in 1999, the last calf of a 17 year old cow.  96 was AI sired by Landmark Bando 912, a born in 1989.  I really don't like the looks of the Bando 912 bull, or his sire Tehamo Bando 155. Tehama Bando was sired by Band 234 of Ideal 3163, a bull that I do like.
96 is a great cow and I have from her 3 daughters, and several grand daughters and great grand daughters. They are always good.  496 sire goes to Scotch Cap and all her daughters are fancier than those of 96.  Most commercial Angus go somehow to some of these bulls through AI over the years.
Anyway, those Bando bulls look suspicious to me in terms of Angus character, but I have this very robust cow from their genetics.  Who knows who her dam was, old #6, a commercial cow that was bought with a farm.
The confounding part is how these phenotypes sort themselves out.
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

 

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