Optimal Regional Phenotypes

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RyanChandler

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I personally like the second bull.  That third bull is going to have all the limitations of your typical show bull. He's wedge shaped in the wrong direction and as a result, he's restricted in his heart which makes those shoulders setting outside his rib cage that much more pronounced.
 

librarian

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That second one is out of an Australian program.  These cattle were developed with functionality foremost and I'd like to get some of the genetics that maintain that direction before it's too late. Thanks for the instructional comments. Maybe you could post a bull that has optimal proportions, for functionality, to compliment the cow diagram.
 

librarian

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How about this one?
From http://www.powellangus.com/GardensFortune100.html
"Fortune 100 has been as influential, at this point in time, as any sire we have used.  He has three of the basic essential foundation sires for superior type, functional angus  in his pedigree including: Schearbrook Shoshone, Emulation 31, and Rito 707 with Emulous influence as well.  He has worked well on all lines we work with and is used as a binder bull to bring their attributes together.  He really did it all very well.  The ultimate optimum sire.  A calving ease bull that will produce thick agressive bulls and fertile functional females that excel  in an all forage environment.  His disposition was exquisite, and he was a pleasure to work with every day he was at work here.  He spent his last year , 2002-2003, with John Fisher in Havensville, Kansas."

 

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cowboy_nyk

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Librarian,
That's definitely the type you should be going after if you want to target the forage based, easy fleshing types.  Here's a bull from Argentina I used to inject some forage based genetics into my program.  The females out of him look awesome.  Bulls are thick enough, but could use a little more growth.

 

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FriedgesCharolais

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cowboy_nyk I am glad you brought this bull up because he has interested me quite a bit. I know he doesnt have the best growth epds but they arent they worst i have seen either. I was thinking about using him to try and get away from some of the Lut influced lines that are in my cattle. Would like to see some pictures of some of his calves if you have any.
 

cowboy_nyk

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XBAR, we decided to buy a semen package on this bull because we admired the muscle shape, body width, and width of chest when we saw him as a yearling.  I think he has a lot to offer the North American Angus genepool.  Pictures of some progeny below at varying ages.  Not show type pictures but it'll give you an idea.  I will say the performance of his calves has shocked me.  The two heaviest heifers at weaning were both Patron calves.  Bulls look to easily make 1200lb YW with some pushing 1300lb.

HiddenCreekCattle,
If you want any further info, feel free to message me.  I can give you more detail on performance, BW, scrotal, and some more anecdotal evidence, etc.!
 

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RyanChandler

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I do not care for that bull at all.  He is very restricted in his heart- he's passed this on to each of those calves- though, it isn't as noticeable in the bottom calf.  Notice how EXT's bottom line starts to come up from the navel and then breaks back down to his chest floor between his front legs.  This other bull's just keeps going upwards.  This is the very first thing I look at in a bull:  Do they have adequate heart girth. EXT does, this other bull does not.  This is absolutely not a bull who excels on a forage ration. 
And then his topline: I want to see no part of a bulls rear third higher than he is at the withers.  Imagine a level line that starts at the withers and extends to the rear. The bull's top line should follow this line. Not only does the Argentine bull's hips sit much higher than this line, but the center of his back is likely 6" beneath it.  This is reflected in these calves as well.  Their top lines aren't nearly as bad but in every one of them, you see the hips setting up higher than they are at the withers. 
 

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cowboy_nyk

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XBAR,
I appreciate what you are saying.  The picture maybe accentuates those characteristics.  About 3/4 of my cowherd is related to EXT so I'm glad that you like him so much.  I like them all year, except calving time.

I disagree with your assertion that he would not do well in a forage based environment.  The calves are exceptionally feed efficient.  The heifer calves are by far the easiest fleshing group and the bull calves eat noticeably less than their peers yet are gaining the same.  A profile picture leaves a lot to the imagination.  His width of chest is truly remarkable for an Angus.

Attached a different picture.  Heart girth looks better, tail-head...meh.  I still like the progeny and I am glad we used him some.  I don't think he is a breed changer, just a useful breeding piece.  I also attached a pic of his Dam.
 

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RyanChandler

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You're a good enough cattlemen to recognize why they chose to picture them how they did in those two pictures. It looks like a profile pic until you look at the elevation of his front feet relative to his rear. They have created a picture angle that conceals his top line.  I agree his chest looks MUCH better in this pic- though, at least to me, chest DEPTH is substantially more important than width. 

The cow, that is one of the most awkward picture angles I've ever seen.  It's my inclination that they chose this angle because of how much higher her hips set than her withers.
 

cowboy_nyk

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I don't want to hijack Librarian's thread so this is my last post on this. 

I stalled beside Patron at Agribition two years ago for eight days.  I walked him up and down the alley a number of times.  I saw him wet, fitted and everything in between.  I am fully aware of his limitations and his good qualities.  With that information, I decided that as an outcross sire, with exceptional muscle and width, he was a breeding piece that could help my program.  I fully realize the second picture is staged, but so is the picture of EXT. 

The cow pic was a cellphone pic that a friend sent to me.  No nefarious intentions.  He was in Argentina helping Tres Marias and sent me a cell phone pic because I asked for one.  She was a National Champion female that year so I doubt she's as bad as you insinuate.
 

aj

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The milk level is a Major part of stayability......in say a .........sawdust and sand diet.
 

Mill Iron A

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I guess I couldn't disagree more with being deep chested on the side relating to foraging ability, overall capacity is what you are after and last time I checked that was L X W X H. Wide chested cattle (not because the are open topped and blown out in the shoulder) but truly wide chested cattle have an advantage on forage. Obviously they can't be hound gutted but couple that chest width with upper rib shape and ADEQUATE depth you have a winner. In general too many people are going after really sappy bellied cattle and it is merely a looks thing, if you watch those cattle walk you can tell they weren't built to be that way.
 

librarian

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Cowboy, don't worry, I am learning a lot from your post and appreciate the conversation.  I have always been confused about heart girth and that restriction between naval and chest floor.  where does a pinched heart girth show itself?
I am trying to learn how to sort bull calves from calves that should be steered, so seeing what I am looking at is pretty important.
This is a calf I liked because he was very straight across the top and seemed to have plenty of heart girth and rump.  Am I reading that right? I am used to looking at his sire, who has very little restriction, so I have thought that there should be none or none other than what the gut causes.
Also I have had a hard time differentiating pinched heart girth from wedge in heifers.  I culled some Devon crosses for looking pinched, but perhaps it was just wedge. In those days I thought a cow should be shaped like a refrigerator.  The pictures really help--one can get only so far on intuition.
 

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RyanChandler

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Mill Iron A said:
I guess I couldn't disagree more with being deep chested on the side relating to foraging ability, overall capacity is what you are after and last time I checked that was L X W X H. Wide chested cattle (not because the are open topped and blown out in the shoulder) but truly wide chested cattle have an advantage on forage. Obviously they can't be hound gutted but couple that chest width with upper rib shape and ADEQUATE depth you have a winner. In general too many people are going after really sappy bellied cattle and it is merely a looks thing, if you watch those cattle walk you can tell they weren't built to be that way.

5 x 3 x 4 , 10 x 3 x 2, 12 x 5 x 1.. etc.. all equal 60 and mathematically all may have the same volume but you know that doesn't translate to all of them having the same foraging ability.  I will agree, in general, wide chested cattle have an advantage on forage.. but that's not an absolute.  I can post picture after picture of cattle who are bulldog chested but are so tight and restricted in the heart and gut that they are worthless.  Take the classic picture of CF Trump for example.  That bull is the poster child for wide chested, tubular shaped, hard doing cattle.  In terms of importance, Depth is by far the most important.  Followed by width, and then length.  No amount of width or length can compensate for a shallow bodied animal.  If you disagree with me, post some representative examples of cattle that are deep chested but also tight hearted and gutted.  I don't think you can do it.  I know I can post picture after picture of cattle that are wide chested but tight hearted and tight gutted thus making them terrible forage converters. 


I think you've hit the nail on the head w/ upper rib shape. If you or anyone else knows anything about measuring circles (the chest barrel), you know you cannot increase the central angle (upper rib shape) without also increasing the diameter of the circle.  When you increase upper rib shape, it is implicit that you increase depth of body.  If you cut a circle in half, obviously the bottom must match the top. 

I agree with you about the sappie bellied cattle and I've commented on this before.  People, in the show ring specifically, are breeding cattle that are deep bellied but shallow chested.  When you increase the gut depth relative to the chest floor depth, it creates the illusion that the cattle have much more guts than they really do.  Look at the bottom line of the "Armada" bull over to your left above the cattleMax ad. Perfect example. Relative to his chest floor, he looks HUGE gutted, but I guarantee you if you put a tape on him, you'll see that the circumference of his belly isn't all that big; its the shallowness of his chest floor RELATIVE to the depth of his barrel that creates this illusion.
 

cowboy_nyk

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I think Mill Iron sees what I was getting at.  The true forage types that I have seen have that wide base and wide chest floor that is lacking in many of the popular bloodlines in North America.  Just look at any OCC bred cows.  Granted, the animal must have adequate depth and rib shape as well, but that is more commonly accessible with "run-of-the-mill" bloodlines.  Something like SAV Bismarck comes to mind.  Exceptional depth and rib, not so wide in base or chest.

Librarian, from what I can tell, that bull looks fine behind the shoulder.  Trust your eye.  If he looks thick, he probably is thick. 
 

Mill Iron A

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I don't mean to pick on herefords but here are two that are "deep chested" and really tight in their heart girth.
 

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