Optimal Regional Phenotypes

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Mill Iron A

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I know you could just list a couple of exotic cattle breed websites and show countless photos of wide chested cattle that are poor forage converters, I agree 100%. That is why I quantified my statement with the hound gutted part. A lot of this goes back to production as well, they do not have to be wide chested if they are small and have no muscle. They  could just be deep and get a long just fine.
 

RyanChandler

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Maybe there's where the confusion lies: Bismark doesn't come close to what I would consider exceptional rib.  Not to mention he's wedge shaped the wrong way. (Like most show bulls) His son Brilliance is even worse in this regard.

Librarian's white bull has the ideal phenotype. He is extremely deep chested and has good shape to his rib.  He is not a wide based bull and is average boned at best.  Undoubtedly, when you increase base width, you're going to get into cattle w/ more bone.  With the exception of cows that don't milk enough to feed a cat, when you add bone you create a harder doing animal.  The easiest fleshing cattle I've been around are actually a little narrow based. They're finer boned but have a huge barrel on them w/ exceptional upper rib.  The cow in the bottom picture is a perfect example of this.  Notice her bottom line and her exceptionally well laid shoulder. She has a nice wedge shape and because her shoulders are laid so smoothly, the transition from her ribcage is almost unnoticeable. 
 

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RyanChandler

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Mill Iron A said:
I don't mean to pick on herefords but here are two that are "deep chested" and really tight in their heart girth.

Neither of those bulls are deep chested.  That's the dewlap you're seeing there buddy.
 

Mill Iron A

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They both have a lot of dewlap but the actual part of their chest comes down to about their knee, which is about where ext is, difference is ext has forerib to go with it.
 

librarian

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These are the things that confound me.  This thread started with a photo of my all around best performing cow, 496.  She is a daughter of 96, pictured here. 96 is an old cow, born in 1999, the last calf of a 17 year old cow.  96 was AI sired by Landmark Bando 912, a born in 1989.  I really don't like the looks of the Bando 912 bull, or his sire Tehamo Bando 155. Tehama Bando was sired by Band 234 of Ideal 3163, a bull that I do like.
96 is a great cow and I have from her 3 daughters, and several grand daughters and great grand daughters. They are always good.  496 sire goes to Scotch Cap and all her daughters are fancier than those of 96.  Most commercial Angus go somehow to some of these bulls through AI over the years.
Anyway, those Bando bulls look suspicious to me in terms of Angus character, but I have this very robust cow from their genetics.  Who knows who her dam was, old #6, a commercial cow that was bought with a farm.
The confounding part is how these phenotypes sort themselves out.
 

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RyanChandler

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That cow is almost identical in type to the one I posted above. No wonder she's so productive in your program.  Band 234 is another bull w/ just unbelievable phenotype.  It really is sad that we have individuals and even breeders who are so far removed from applying a selection protocol based on functional beef cattle characteristics that they genuinely believe bulls like Bismarck and his sons are superior in type. 

I'd absolutely agree w/ your speculation of some of those bulls.  Especially the landmark 912 bull.  I could tell you nearly every breed of cattle and their defining characteristics since I was 4 years old- there is only 1 breed that has a head like that.
 

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librarian

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Thanks, this is how far I have gotten on intuition.  I fished 96 out of a herd of 200 commercial cows that I help sort calves on and vaccinate every year.  I have culled every commercial Angus cow I owned except her and her family.  That Band 105 bull must have been a prepotent rascal.
Here are daughter, grand daughter and great grand daughter.  And daughter, 496, with Galloway cross grand daughter.  The type comes through regardless of sire, but I have to say I think the Shorthorn crosses are better. 
I also believe that a lot, maybe most, of what goes into an optimal regional phenotype is history in the environment.  These genes go back 33 years in this locale, so the forage adaptation is deep.  I think using home bred sons of the best bulls available is probably the way to keep that going.
 

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