Outsider vs. Firewater vs. Turton

Help Support Steer Planet:

phil4615

Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Messages
19
I just recently bought a purebred char female. Just wondering what the pros and cons are between these bulls they seem to be the most popular to produce purebred calves. I’m also wondering if outsider is really worth the 500+ per straw.

Thanks in advance.
 

CAB

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
5,607
Location
Corning,Iowa
JMO on the Outsider semen, if you are doing an IVF flush possibly but otherwise not worth that kind of money. You may also want to take a look at CML Diablo 2X. I don't think any of those bulls would be a good choice for a first calf heifer.
 

Mark H

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
645
I would like to know what this female is (pedigree, production record etc.) and where you want to take her before talking about bull recommendations.  I don't think Outsider warrants a comparison to Firewater or Turton yet since they only have registered 93 calves out of  him yet. CML Diablo is a heifer bull that is available by purchasing semen packages from Bovine Elite.  Cedardale Zeal is in the same class of bull as CML Diablo with good calves.  Outsider's  is basically a calving ease bull out of  LT Long Distance.  For my money LT Ledger is more proven than Outsider and not hard to get semen on.
I can also tell you about some truly outstanding outcross cattle that work and aren't shown (Rawes Ranches).  They had the top selling bull Charolaais calf in Canada with no promotion or showing.  A real powerhouse (Rawes Duke 401C).
 

cbest

New member
Joined
May 1, 2017
Messages
4
I agree with Mark H, would like to see some pics of the heifer and know some pedigree info. But if just talking bulls I have seen many Firewater and Turton calves and have liked most of them, think they are both good bulls on the right kind of cow. I myself am planning on breeding a few to Firewater this next year
 

Mark H

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
645
I actually like the heifers out of Firewater better than his bull calves despite the negative milk EPD.  I think you have to watch the kind of cow you use Firewater on.  I would like to see more performance out of Firewater calves sincet hey can be  harder to sell to commercial bull buyers.
 

Bradenh

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
Messages
2,646
Location
Central Texas
Mark h not to derail a topic but since you brought him up I'll ask can you elaborate a little more on zeal? Saw some out of him at abribition 2015 when they first hit the scene and have always been very intrigued by him I currently have a hoodoo influence heifer bred to him calf coming in march. Do you think the zeals can win banners or more just the type to get the first calf out of the way
 

Bradenh

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
Messages
2,646
Location
Central Texas
And a couple of you guys talk about using Fw on the "right kind of cow", curious to see if you guys could share in your mind what type of cow this Is, draw me a picture of the ideal cow for him. Questions coming from someone very interested in charolais breeding
 

Mark H

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
645
Zeal is the best negative Birth Weight EPD sire for confirmation i have seen for consistency and confirmation.  He isn't as easy calving as many extreme calving ease bulls. He does put quality calves on the ground and the calves are not going to be automatic culls come fall time  I believe he is more consistent than Hoo Doo Slasher.  He has similar performance to Firewater once the calves are on the ground. 
The other Cedardale bull is Abracadabra.  He is easier calving than Zeal and is more impressive in the flesh.  I haven't seen any calves out of him yet but he would be one to experiment with  due to the better calving ease potential and appearance.
By the way when i mean the right kind of cow I mean one with out high birth weight and some performance in her to compensate for the lower performance the bull brings. He is similar to a Full french bull in this way and part of the reason he will add guts, fleahing ability and muscle to domestic narrower cattle that need substance.
 

phil4615

Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Messages
19
Sorry guys I haven’t checked for a couple days! This is the heifers registration number: F1223370


I attached a picture of her. I bought her out of the Western Elite Sale in Denver.  She’s bred to a bull named Prince.

Like I said I’m very new to the Char business so I value your input!

Thanks!
 

Attachments

  • 63406662-8198-4A43-8DD9-0EE567EE3386.jpeg
    63406662-8198-4A43-8DD9-0EE567EE3386.jpeg
    684.9 KB · Views: 308

Mark H

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
645
Your heifer ha-s some of the best calving ease show genetics going right now.  Her sire KAYR Patent 748Bis -2.1 on BWT EPD and around 81 for yearling weight on the Canadian Charolais EPDs.  His EPDs are very similar to KCM Prowlers. Her own AICA EPDs and her sire don't mean much because KAYR Patent 748B has american few calves on the ground to collect data from.  Her dam is out of Wyoming Wind need I say more?  Here is a link to KAYR on her sire: http://www.kayrcharolais.com/herd-sire/kayr-patent-748b. Here is lnl to McLoeds and the KAYR bull sale: http://mcleodlivestock.com/sales.html  Another Charolais show stock sale: https://prairiecovecharolais.com/for-sale/
I also noticed that the owner is still listed as the breeder.  Have they transfered the papers yet?
Also what do you know about the bull she is bred to?
 

phil4615

Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Messages
19
Yes we have started the paper work to get her transferred. She’s bred to a bull called SCC Prince I believe. I wasn’t able to find any info online about him, but the breeder told me they have used him on their heifers with great success. I think he came from, Schmidt Cattle Co in Nebraska. I don’t have a registration number on him currently.

 

phil4615

Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Messages
19
So for the purpose of producing Char Show heifers, what would be your breeding recommendations? We plan on flushing her this spring. We have access to IVF, I’m still undecided on rather I like it better than conventional flushing or not but it’s certainly an option.
 

Charguy

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2011
Messages
68
Nice heifer. She is bred to a heifer bull so you can go for some performance on the 2nd calf. If you want show females I think u can't go wrong with Turton on her. I do like those Outsider females that were in Denver. Just concerned the bulls might not have enough to them. But an IVF cycle to Turton or Outsider should work in my opinion. Lots of FW and Turton around though so that may limit marketability. The other good CDN bull u might want to look at is the Double Vision bull that sold US rights in Denver. Polzin bought him. He isn't the most powerful bull in the world but he is correct and put together nicely. And it's something a little different. Not sure how available he will be though.
 

Mark H

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
645
Since she will no longer be a heifer when you breed her  I wouldn't be so concerned avout calving ease.  I would look at is working on similar breeding in a show contex and Kayr and PCC both run very similar breeding to what your heifer is.  Both these operations have good show sucess in the United States and have access to bulls that will power this little cow up since she has all the calving ease she will need.  I am thinking Gerrards Pastor, PCC Rome, Rawes Duke, or Rawes Sir T as an outcross to Firwater breeding.  This way you can maintain showability, improve powe rand performance along with something unique.
By the way isn't double vision a Zeal son? 
 

Mark H

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
645
Is the bull she is bred to SCC Prince 127B?  If so then she is bred to a performance spread bull not a dedicated heifer bull.  If the Schmidt's ares saying he is calving good on heifers with  a +1.6 BWT EPD and a +102 Yearling Wt EPD I would tend agree with them as they know the bull.  This mating will correct any performance issues in a hurry as this bull has more performance than any Charolais  bull available for commercial sale on AI now.  The two only bulls I know of that are available private treaty are both  from Pleasant Dawn (Chisum and MVP).  If this works out at calving time then the bulls i told you about would work out just great for creating show stock and practical beef cattle.
 

Charguy

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2011
Messages
68
Pretry sure most of those bulls you mentioned Mark are not exportable  (the Rawe bulls for sure). Rome you may get a hold of but from experience they aren't very showy. Lots of performance - bulls better then females. Double Vision is a Zeal. Haven't used any Zeal (thought he didn't have enough hair) so I cant comment on him. Have seen some decent progeny. Progeny seem to have hair. Pleasant Dawn Chisum pretty sure is not exportable either. Grandson of this bull in AB this year (off a high selling son named Pleasant Dawn Classic) won Farmfair and the AB Select this fall. (His name is CEE RETZ Class Act 57E). Real good calf off a Turton daughter. Good Genetics in that Pleasant Dawn herd. Turton daughter are hard to beat too
 

Mark H

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
645
I found Chisum on the Alta Beef U.S. website along with Sparrows Kingston: http://search.altabeef.com/Search/Breed/15  Chisum has been sold in semen packages to Australia so I think he can be exported to the U. S. .  The real problem is that most cutting edge bulls in Canada are sold in semen packages  in large amounts of semen for 4h or FFA people.  Once you start selling semen packages for around 2- 50 vials then you can handle the costs of collecting for export markets.  See how CML Diablo is being marketed in the U. S. now.  If I wanted to get some of the Rawes bulls that is how i would approach.  I think Orrin hatch may still have some Rawes Duke after his dispersal.
 

RyanChandler

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 6, 2011
Messages
3,457
Location
Pottsboro, TX
Mark H said:
By the way when i mean the right kind of cow I mean one with out high birth weight and some performance in her to compensate for the lower performance the bull brings. He is similar to a Full french bull in this way and part of the reason he will add guts, fleahing ability and muscle to domestic narrower cattle that need substance.

Interesting.  I see him as the exact opposite as you describe.  The cow I would recommend would be exceptional deep and capacious. Every Firewater offspring I have seen has had the guts sucked right out of them, built long and tubular like a paper towel role. 
 

Mark H

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
645
XBAR,  Just exactly where did you see firewater calves that had "the guts sucked out of them"?  I want to see them in the flesh.  Having seen plenty of pencil gutted cattle in the 1980's that is not how I would describe Firewater calves to say the least-  unless they didn't have much to eat in order to develop in the first place.  Under what environmental conditions did you see these cattle?
 

RyanChandler

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 6, 2011
Messages
3,457
Location
Pottsboro, TX
Well most recently at ft worth but I regularly exhaust the depths of the internets looking at cattle pictures people has posted.  There’s several pictures on this site here.  I guess it’s all relative if cattle from the 80s are your reference, I just had a big ground sow type in mind when I heard the question posed then your response was in the opposite direction.  Not saying you’re wrong -as again, it’s all relative, I just prefer cattle with some guts. 
 

Attachments

  • A899DCE9-4821-4324-B8CA-0FE3224F863B.jpeg
    A899DCE9-4821-4324-B8CA-0FE3224F863B.jpeg
    137.1 KB · Views: 251
Top