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Offline nate53

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Re: PETA is at it again!!
« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2012, 10:29:58 PM »
Chandler - many large companies are steering away from farrowing pens (mainly because of these groups).   My point is the industry hasn't and will never benefit from these groups,


 ??? ??? ???
  I guess you missed the part where I said that the mortality rate is quite a bit higher for these open pens, which leads to higher prices for the consumer.  These big companies are not changing because the open pen is better or more econimical, they are doing it because a picture has been painted that leads to the idea of farrowing crates being bad.  So not good for the industry.  Does the ag industry need these groups to tell them how to do their business?????
My post are just my opinion.

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: PETA is at it again!!
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2012, 11:25:27 PM »
Chandler - many large companies are steering away from farrowing pens (mainly because of these groups).  My point is the industry hasn't and will never benefit from these groups,


 ??? ??? ???
  I guess you missed the part where I said that the mortality rate is quite a bit higher for these open pens, which leads to higher prices for the consumer.  These big companies are not changing because the open pen is better or more economical, they are doing it because a picture has been painted that leads to the idea of farrowing crates being bad.  So not good for the industry.  Does the Ag industry need these groups to tell them how to do their business?????
I'm not concerned with higher consumer prices, I'm concerned with the ethical treatment of animals in general. Make no mistake, farrowing crates ARE bad and the **** should be outlawed immediately.  That type of confinement makes me sick...especially when one of the MOST INTELLIGENT animals species are the ones being subjected to it. The mortality rates are higher in open pens only because farrowing crates have been used for so long, many of the natural instincts have been bred out of the animals.  You don't see this problem in wild hogs and once the industry rids farrowing crates, and only animals are retained that wean a large % of their litter, the mortality rates in open pens will decline drastically.    You proved my point- because of these extremist groups- these large companies are now having to reconsider their industry practices and are now being forced to operate in a more humane fashion.  Too many like you are more concerned with the success of the "industry" and totally disregard the well being of the animals that enable those industries.

Offline nate53

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Re: PETA is at it again!!
« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2012, 03:22:05 AM »
Chandler - many large companies are steering away from farrowing pens (mainly because of these groups).  My point is the industry hasn't and will never benefit from these groups,


 ??? ??? ???
 I guess you missed the part where I said that the mortality rate is quite a bit higher for these open pens, which leads to higher prices for the consumer.  These big companies are not changing because the open pen is better or more economical, they are doing it because a picture has been painted that leads to the idea of farrowing crates being bad.  So not good for the industry.  Does the Ag industry need these groups to tell them how to do their business?????
I'm not concerned with higher consumer prices, I'm concerned with the ethical treatment of animals in general. Make no mistake, farrowing crates ARE bad and the **** should be outlawed immediately.  That type of confinement makes me sick...especially when one of the MOST INTELLIGENT animals species are the ones being subjected to it. The mortality rates are higher in open pens only because farrowing crates have been used for so long, many of the natural instincts have been bred out of the animals.  You don't see this problem in wild hogs and once the industry rids farrowing crates, and only animals are retained that wean a large % of their litter, the mortality rates in open pens will decline drastically.    You proved my point- because of these extremist groups- these large companies are now having to reconsider their industry practices and are now being forced to operate in a more humane fashion.  Too many like you are more concerned with the success of the "industry" and totally disregard the well being of the animals that enable those industries.
Chandler, really people like me???

I'm sure the oil companies aren't concerned with higher consumer prices either.

If you would like you can PM me your obvious negative experience with farrowing crates and maybe I'll understand your viewpoint?  In my experience which was a brief period, 15 - 20 years ago we went from pigging outside to farrowing crates ( but I have seen operations in the past few years that use this - yes I went inside and looked).  We didn't have a lot of sows but we had a few hundred head (approximately)  Here are some of my conclusions after that brief period.

The sows and guilts would average an extra 3 pigs per litter.  
Momma would not hear one pig squeal just to spin around and step on (kill) a couple (by spinning around).  Yes we went from outdoor farrowing to crates (so the natural instincts weren't bred out they were still there).
The sows were kept comfortable (no weather, near constant temp.fans and heaters would ventiliate and provide heat, no manure runoff when it rains)
Some sows are down right mean when they pig (kinda like some cows), the crate helped protect the producer and the baby pigs.
So economically it was a better deal, but guess what IMO it was all more humane, ethical whatever you would like to call it (for a 4 week period a sow would come inside and pig and then out she would go)
The one drawback was the pigs needed iron shots.  How many pigs per litter do wild hogs raise (if I was to guess 5 - 6)???
I guess I'm glad we don't have to deal with this anymore!

Like I said though this was along time ago, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that this production method is not still better for the sow and pigs.  Again there are always a few producers that don't treat there animals with good care, but I disagree with banning a practice because of the lazy, inhumane people (which are few).   I did see a video of a downer cow getting hit by a forklift a while back ( couple years ago?) yes still alive (that made me sick).

Why does everyone think that more regulation, laws, red tape is always needed to fix something.  Whatever happened to common sense and fixing or adjusting something just because you think it needs to be fixed not because a law says.  Why is it that animals have so many rights and yet unborn babies have none?  Why is that everyone is more concerned with their neighbors kids or pets than they are with raising and teaching their own kids.  Why are people willing to go hurt, kill people over what they believe to be animal abuse (I am using this term loosely), really alot of people care more about animals than human life even there own kids. ???

Chandler- I don't totally disagree with your post, but feel that it is your opinion instead of fact (I've seen too much that makes me believe otherwise).  This is just my opinon and now I know yours! ;)
You got a nice set of heifers in the other thread :)!


« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 03:25:36 AM by nate53 »
My post are just my opinion.

Offline bruiser

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Re: PETA is at it again!!
« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2012, 04:37:20 AM »
I understand both points of view mentioned before in this thread. We can all understand where both you guys are coming from. I don't believe that any animal rights groups opinions are based on any of the arguments that we can bring up and discuss on any forum. Our arguemen ts are based on either benefits of the producer or the animal in question. IMO the a.r. group doesn't give a rip if you treat your animals like your own kids. They don't want anyone to raise, eat or disturb any animals. IMO they want all the cute little fuzzy critters to live like Winnie the pooh. Never mind that they eat half their young and destroy everything around them.

Offline bruiser

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Re: PETA is at it again!!
« Reply #64 on: March 07, 2012, 04:42:22 AM »
The fact that I made the last post at 4:30 in the morning ( 3:30 my time) after checking the heifers in the calving pen, would really blow their mind. Come to think of it, I'm kind of wondering about myself!?!

Offline commercialfarmer

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Re: PETA is at it again!!
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2012, 06:16:56 AM »
Chandler - many large companies are steering away from farrowing pens (mainly because of these groups).  My point is the industry hasn't and will never benefit from these groups,



 ??? ??? ???
  I guess you missed the part where I said that the mortality rate is quite a bit higher for these open pens, which leads to higher prices for the consumer.  These big companies are not changing because the open pen is better or more economical, they are doing it because a picture has been painted that leads to the idea of farrowing crates being bad.  So not good for the industry.  Does the Ag industry need these groups to tell them how to do their business?????

I'm not concerned with higher consumer prices, I'm concerned with the ethical treatment of animals in general. Make no mistake, farrowing crates ARE bad and the **** should be outlawed immediately.  That type of confinement makes me sick...especially when one of the MOST INTELLIGENT animals species are the ones being subjected to it. The mortality rates are higher in open pens only because farrowing crates have been used for so long, many of the natural instincts have been bred out of the animals.  You don't see this problem in wild hogs and once the industry rids farrowing crates, and only animals are retained that wean a large % of their litter, the mortality rates in open pens will decline drastically.    You proved my point- because of these extremist groups- these large companies are now having to reconsider their industry practices and are now being forced to operate in a more humane fashion.  Too many like you are more concerned with the success of the "industry" and totally disregard the well being of the animals that enable those industries.


Actually it seems that many like Nate are more concerned with the success of the "industry" and trying to produce protein for the rising world population in an efficient as means as possible.  People are starving.  People are hurting here.  If your not, great.  But too many are.  Many agricultural practices have been instituted due to increased production.  Animal health is actually important to production.  I can find many instances where protocols have been altered to increase the health of the animals, which is financially beneficial to the producers.  I will bet that 70% of the animals in the US have better health care than over half of the worlds population. 

Your statements sound a whole lot like HSUS philosophy/propaganda.  They are a little different from PETA in that they claim to not be radical and try hard to distance themselves.  But their agenda is change through legislation.   And their purpose is to promote increased regulations of the agricultural industry ultimately leading to no housed or fenced animals.  Your cattle will no longer be your cattle. 

Anyone can twist things around enough to fit their agenda.  And by the way, the question I posed to you about bashing your calves head in for fun....I assume it is false and unfounded or I would have already contacted your local authorities using the laws and regulations currently on the books advocating for the humane treatment of livestock.  However, unfortunately for you, I and everyone else, this is propaganda that the extremist groups are already portraying to the uniformed public about the agriculture industry. 

The following story does not identify individuals as being guilty of animal neglect/abuse, the story identifies "America's Sadistic Dairy Industry".    Who is going to let a few facts get in the way, when you have an agenda to take care of right? 

http://www.13point7billion.org/2011/04/shocking-undercover-video-baby-calves.html
America's Sadistic Dairy Industry: Baby Calves Bludgeoned to Death with Hammers
When you drink or use milk from a factory farm, you are supporting an industry that includes this baby calf, one of many whose skulls were bashed in by hammers and pickaxes

So again, I fail to see how misrepresenting the truth does anything for the industry.  And those aren't my unfounded words above. 

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: PETA is at it again!!
« Reply #66 on: March 07, 2012, 07:46:40 AM »
Really?

Offline outspoken

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Re: PETA is at it again!!
« Reply #67 on: March 07, 2012, 07:55:56 AM »
Really?
Ryan, I have to disagree with you on this one: and I know being a grazing cattleman- things in the swine world just don't make sense all couped up like they do-- that I agree with.  But without you ever being involved with swine production first hand- one just doesn't understand.

Swine or some of the most ineficient convertors of forage- if they even convert it at all.  The enviromental defects that they cause on the landscape if allowed on dirt-- far out weigh any cosmetic downfalls from being in buildings and stalls.  Sure one can argue put them outside on concrete slabs and drylots- but being on concrete outside- really is no different than on concrete inside-- both against a grazing cattleman's senses.  The digestive system of a swine- is geared for grain and concentrate: not forage.

I just don't get these people raising pastured pork--  why waste your pasture? get a steer calf to actually convert that grass into an edible product. 

Here are two pictures that show what happens when you take pigs off concrete--- does this appeal to you more as a grazer?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 07:57:09 AM by kfacres »

Offline SIMMGAL

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Re: PETA is at it again!!
« Reply #68 on: March 07, 2012, 08:19:43 AM »
 

Your statements sound a whole lot like HSUS philosophy/propaganda.  They are a little different from PETA in that they claim to not be radical and try hard to distance themselves.  But their agenda is change through legislation.   And their purpose is to promote increased regulations of the agricultural industry ultimately leading to no housed or fenced animals.  Your cattle will no longer be your cattle.  
  
No fencing of animals? Hmm...so what happens when a person in PETA has a child get ran over by an unfenced cow? What happens then? And what happens when momma cow calves in the road and a PETA person goes speeding by and hits and kills it? They really think that fencing in animals is bad for them?

No housing of animals? So what happens when a sick down cow lays for days in the field in the middle of winter? If we can't give them shelter aren't we then doing what they wanted us to not do?

If they took the time to know the WHOLE industry, what we stand for and what we are doing then I would understand if they found problems with it. Instead they take the actions of the extremist few and use them to ruin the image (among other things) of the law-abiding and ethical many. I could go on for PAGES and PAGES about my complaints and experiences, but as producers we have to stick together. In the end, treating your animal ethically gives it the opportunity to make you more money and give you more offspring, so many producers see no other way to do things. It's a wonder that there are not more videos out there that show how happy the other animals on farms are. Only the negative side is shown. The hard truth is that many animals in the US are treated better than actual human beings in other countries.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 08:21:50 AM by Simmgal »
Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cattle and that's pretty much the same thing as far as I'm concerned!

Simmental and SimAngus bulls available year-round!

Offline lowann

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Re: PETA is at it again!!
« Reply #69 on: March 07, 2012, 11:04:47 AM »
http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/24/documents-peta-kills-more-than-95-percent-of-pets-in-its-care/#ixzz1nP1mXYuv

They seem more successful per capita than planned parenthood.

Amazing anyone gives them money.


You are right on Mark! 95% of adoptable dogs, and cats were euthanized by PETA in 2011 alone. Maybe instead of pointing fingers at everyone else, they need to sweep off their own porch. Hypocrites!!

Offline hamburgman

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Re: PETA is at it again!!
« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2012, 12:26:06 PM »
Fail to see what is wrong with gestation crates.  Sows seems very content in them most of the time.  She is protected from others abusing her and her individual care is much more easily accessed and handled.   Lots of situations have shown when given a choice many sows going into the crates instead of lay around in the open to get away from boss sows.

Offline oakie

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Re: PETA is at it again!!
« Reply #71 on: March 08, 2012, 12:57:31 PM »
My husband worked on a smaller pig raising farm (about 100 head) and when we were in college discussing farrowing crates in a lecture he told me that without the crates the pigs would eat every baby they had. They just don't know better. I see nothing wrong with, and neither did he, leaving them in the farrowing crate until the babies are able to fend for themselves and mom has figured out exactly what they are. Kind of like leaving sheep in a jug or heifers in a calving pen, or your wife in the hospital. Every species has a certain allotment of time in the birthing pen (sheep 3-7 days, cows 3-7 days, wife 2-3 days etc depending on weather) I don't see the problem with protecting mom and her babies from the elements until they are able to withstand them on their own. Your counter attack will probably be (I'm not a pig producer so I don't know weaning ages) "but they wean the piglets at x age so mom doesn't see them "(I don't know if that's true), if they in fact do wean the babies, it's probably best for the pigs longevity. Along with numerous reasons. One question before I continue, besides what you have read/heard of, what kind of experience do you have that qualifies you to argue this topic? Not saying I am an expert, but at least I have first hand information and have spent some time watching pigs in crates (that college thing).

Offline nate53

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Re: PETA is at it again!!
« Reply #72 on: March 08, 2012, 07:34:51 PM »
Chandler - many large companies are steering away from farrowing pens (mainly because of these groups).   My point is the industry hasn't and will never benefit from these groups,


 ??? ??? ???
The information I stated here was incorrect (my bad), these big companies are not steering away from farrowing crates they are steering away from gestational crates.  Basically they stay in a crate while they pig and until they are confirmed rebred, then get turned into a group pen.  The place I was told about today actually has group pens but the sows have to go back into a particular crate to eat (some identifaction system that only allows a certain animal to go in a certain crate to eat a certain amount of feed), and they can move freely from that crate to the group pen during this time.  From what I was told like 38 out of every 40 head spend basically all of there time in the crates (it must not be to bad).  Hogs have a social order and any time new animals are introduced or animals are taken away there can be intense fighting between the animals in the pen (which can lead to death).  In finishing  facilities lets say you have 200 pig pens, if one of these gets into another pen 8 times out of 10 they well severly injure the pig that got into the pen (how do they know which pig got into it - I have ideas but don't really know).  The finishing side is first hand experience over the past 15 years.

Oakie- I've seen sows eat their young a few times a long time ago but it was somewhat of a rare event in my limited experience.

How did we get started talking about pigs isn't this a cattle site?? ;D
My post are just my opinion.

Offline firesweepranch

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Re: PETA is at it again!!
« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2012, 10:25:22 AM »
I have tons of experience in breeding and farrowing pigs, more than 30 years. We moved to beef cattle when we moved to Missouri because the lack of pork market out here in the SW. With that said, farrowing crates are a life saver for pigs. When I was in college, I lived at the swine unit where we farrowed out more than 50 litters a quarter. Each swine science class was assigned pigs to follow farrowing to weaning, and I had to supervise. At 7 days, sows and litters were placed on pasture (two sows/litters per pasture). We lost several piglets the first few weeks. They get laid on or stepped on. If the sows were left in the crates until weaning (4 weeks), we would have had more live pigs but we did not have enough crates and had to rotate sows through for space. The pasture was the best option, but the scar on my rump from a sow chasing me out of the pasture one time would not agree!  ;) They get mean when someone (or another sow) steps on a piglet and it screams!!!  :o
Now, fast forward several years, I was a high school ag teacher in CA. We were fortunate enough to have a high school farm, and I got several sows donated so I could teach my students how to AI, farrow, and take those pigs to fairs and show. We made several farrowing crates and would farrow the sows under the overhang out by the shop. We had a horrific experience while all the students were there watching the piglets while the sow was farrowing. The sow became agitated, jumped up (normally they are in a trance when farrowing), grabbed a newborn piglet, and proceeded to fling it left to right until pieces and blood when flying everywhere! I have NEVER had a sow attack her young like that before, and we had to devise a board to put up near her neck to keep the piglets behind her head. Once they were about 5 days old, she stopped trying to kill them. She was shipped when she was weaned.
So, long story short, farrowing crates are a necessity if we want to wean off big litters. In the wild they might have two or four pigs, but the litter sizes we have (usually 12 or more) is next to impossible to prevent the sow from laying on them. The farrowing crate prevents her from turning in a circle before she lays down to feed, and the piglets learn to get out of the way when she goes down. We never used gestation stalls, so I can not comment there. However, if the sows are going in there free choice, it can not be that bad! They have a definite pecking order, and will fight to the death if order is disrupted.
God, family, and Simmental cattle;  that's what makes life worth living!

Offline knabe

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Re: PETA is at it again!!
« Reply #74 on: March 09, 2012, 11:03:16 AM »
They have a definite pecking order, and will fight to the death if order is disrupted.

Sounds like PETA
"The generation that told us to question authority, has now become the Authority we cannot question!"

 

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