PETA is at it again!!

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kfacres

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Simmgal said:
I recently heard that an activist group was trying to pass a bill to stop the A.Iing of cattle. Do they not understand how much the cattle industry relies on AI? Well I guess we are talking about PETA..

disregarding PETA: I wonder what this would do the the cattle industry? 

Create more of an interest for walking bulls in bull sales (+)
Raise the nationwide cattle numbers (+)
Do away with the ridiculous AI Certs (+)
Create genetic evolution and change (+)/ (-)
Reduce the lined pockets of the AI Company's (+)
Broaden our genetic options (+)
 

brs5

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If vegitarians and PETA love animals, why do they eat their food?? (clapping)
 

knabe

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Cut the BS said:
Simmgal said:
I recently heard that an activist group was trying to pass a bill to stop the A.Iing of cattle. Do they not understand how much the cattle industry relies on AI? Well I guess we are talking about PETA..

disregarding PETA: I wonder what this would do the the cattle industry? 

Create more of an interest for walking bulls in bull sales (+)
Raise the nationwide cattle numbers (+)
Do away with the ridiculous AI Certs (+)
Create genetic evolution and change (+)/ (-)
Reduce the lined pockets of the AI Company's (+)
Broaden our genetic options (+)

Do it yourself. No one is stopping anyone.
 

knabe

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How do pronounce th when talking out of both sides of your mouth without a forked tongue?

In the animal kingdom, we must impose monogamous pairings in all organisms to maximize genetic diversity.  Any narrowing of the gene pool is evil.
 

KSanburg

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The people involved in these groups have nothing better to do than interfear with ours, just because someone once told them that we were evil. They have little bases for their message other than the propaganda that they have been given from head quarters. They may not have read beyond the first page and believe that they know it all, while they may not have fully interpreted the original message. It is a feel good message for them and by enlarge they really know nothing more than it feels good to tell someone else how they should treat their animals and live there lives. These are the same people that will vote in November and we wonder why our country is in trouble?
 

kfacres

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Wright-Way Simmental said:
How will no use of a.i. broaden genetic options? If you can't a.i. then there will be no e.t. work either.

Purely the opposite on both accounts. 

how do you figure that a bull- which normally would be limited to naturally mating 100 or so cows each year- and then his genetics be limited to that calf crop- and it's purchasers---  would have less genetic influence on a breed than say a bull who is collected weekly and mated to a couple thousand cows each month via AI? 

Is no ET work a bad thing?  Wouldn't that improve the quality of the nationwide cow herd?  Wouldn't that be a result of everyone trying to make every cow better-- instead of just trying to make every cow have a calf from another cow-- and 20 cows having genetically identical calves?  How does one donor cow- who's flushed monthly- owned by 10 breeders- have less influence on a breed than say one 10 year old cow who's calved every year, twins once- and only has 9 calves registered to her name-- as opposed to the above cow who might have 20 calves registered a month.?

When you have a breed, with each group of producers doing their own little thing-- you have tons and tons of options to choose from- you just have to go out and find them at a sale somewhere.  When you AI- every body and their brother can use the same bull... 

Because I have a cattle visions book laying next to my chair- and this is a show steer website- I just counted the number of club calf sires that have Heatwave and/ or Who Made Who- in 3 generations---  79 do, 35 don't.  That doesn't sound like much diversity to me- even though I have the option of choosing from just over 100 bulls-- does it matter if 80% of them are nearly the same genetically?  That basically limits me 20 genetics to choose from-- or I would guess the same number I could travel to check out bulls in a sale- within a day's drive of my house.
 

WWS

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Cut the BS I do get what you mean in terms of genetic diversity on a national level in terms of breed as a whole, I was referring to the opportunity to use different genetics on producer level in being able to access genetics that in alot of cases you wouldn't be able to afford to get your hands on.  I believe we are both correct it just depends which angle your looking at, breed as a whole versus individual producer.
 

Limiman12

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On a micro level, AIing leads to MORE genetic diversity.    When i go to a production sale, one farm may have calves siredby a dozen different bulls in the twenty some offered at a seed stock production sale.

If I wanted to I could ai every cow to a different bull. 

Genetic diversity and improving quality across they breed are balancing acts.  I don't think that a  bull such as heat wave and all his clones has that much impact on genetic diversity in seed stock production for commercial cattlemen.  First, a tremendously high percentage of his calves are terminal.  Second, no one other the a steer jock would use him with the calving  issues that are likely to present themselves.  When a small percentage of cattle being raised are for such a different purpose then the other cattle, it makes since that within that small percentage bulls proven to produce the desired look will hold a prominent place in the gene pool.
 

kfacres

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Limiman12 said:
On a micro level, AIing leads to MORE genetic diversity.    When i go to a production sale, one farm may have calves siredby a dozen different bulls in the twenty some offered at a seed stock production sale.

If I wanted to I could ai every cow to a different bull. 

Genetic diversity and improving quality across they breed are balancing acts.  I don't think that a  bull such as heat wave and all his clones has that much impact on genetic diversity in seed stock production for commercial cattlemen.  First, a tremendously high percentage of his calves are terminal.  Second, no one other the a steer jock would use him with the calving  issues that are likely to present themselves.  When a small percentage of cattle being raised are for such a different purpose then the other cattle, it makes since that within that small percentage bulls proven to produce the desired look will hold a prominent place in the gene pool.

Now, you are taking my very tiny- one example-- and throwing it way out of proportion- and acting like this is something I believe gospel truth- for every breed- every reason- every body...

If I was going to make a reference towards the commercial breeder-- of which I have done to the millionth degree on here- and simple truth---been had my ass to me every single time--- for the simple truth of this is a SHOW CATTLE website-

I would have.

Now, for the AI to the commercial producer- I'll use the shorthorn breed and what they are doing right now, but any breed will work.  There are a half of catalog full of bulls being promoted for commercial use- with numbers that would make that cattleman jump on board like you wouldn't believe-- that aren't any more commercially geared than the damn 'roo posted and poked fun at on another post.  So don't go there.  For one that tops the list IMO is Mytty in Focus... that bull has been  used by more people worldwide than any other I can think of right now... I've seen tons of In Focus daughters-- and I can truthfully say they have been the most inconsistent sire group I've ever seen in my life- even sets of a dozen flushmate sisters.  and they're brothers:: they didn't cut worth a damn when hung upside down.
 

Limiman12

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My point was the eighty twenty is the extreme because the show world is extreme in the type they want.

If a bull is being promoted thatheavy, and used that heavy and is not improving the breed then those that use him are going to find out the hard way.  I do see the problem with the disconnect between the rail and the pasture they come from.  The guy that feeds them the last ninety days may not be the guy that backgrounded them, and very likely is not the guy that bred and raised them.  Therefore,  if the feedlot guy does know what breeding is behind the calves that didn't or I'd cut well, it is far from the norm.    Any black. Cattle that go through the sale barn at local sale barns are called angus cross.  We raise limis.  Most of our herd would be at least three fourth limi, but last year when they went through the auctioneer said, look at these thick made angus steers!  We corrected him, but how many people really follow there calves to the rail.  As a feeder calf producer, weaning weight is what you are after,  If they don't cut, that is the next guys problem. 

That is the problem, like I said genetic diversity is tempered with improving the breed.  I don't want to see every pos bull calf sire twenty calves. But with the  ability for several bulls to be marketed so heavy, care needs to be taken that the ones being chosen are right.  Lack of uniformity in cutability, gain, grading etc is what the market place is calling for.  A commercial cow calf guy being able to sync all his cows, get seventy five percent bred the same day to the same bull is going to have a much more uniform product to sell, then the. Same guy taking three hundred calves sired by ten different bulls spread out over five weeks to the market.  If he picked the wrong bull, then that is a problem, but that is not because of gentic diversity, it is picking a bull that does not produce what was promoted.
 

bruiser

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We can cuss and discuss the genetic issues of the AI question for days and never come to an agreement. But the issue of PETA and their cronies needs our undivided attention. Just like the woman hiring hitmen I  mentioned in a thread a few days ago, these people think they're doing God's work on earth and are truly committed to it. The best thing we can do is talk to people we meet in our everyday life. Our  county Farm Bureau has an
Ag in the classroom day on the farm serving up to 450 kids in 4Th grade. I have helped for several years leading groups thru it. I get the usual questions from the kids, but every year I'm amazed at the questions from the teachers and their aids. Some of these teachers are from small rural towns and they still have misconceptions about farming and agriculture in general. Whenever we talk to someone like this we need to use that moment wisely. Remember that person will have a different view of our world than we do. The average city dweller doesn't know that corn in those endless Fields they drive by , mostlikly won't end up directly on their plate. Keep in mind you have the opportunity to " win them over to our side" in that short conversation.
 

Simmgal

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bruiser said:
We can cuss and discuss the genetic issues of the AI question for days and never come to an agreement.
Sorry to open that can...save 'em for fishin'!


bruiser said:
But the issue of PETA and their cronies needs our undivided attention. Just like the woman hiring hitmen I  mentioned in a thread a few days ago,these people think they're doing God's work on earth and are truly committed to it. The best thing we can do is talk to people we meet in our everyday life. Our  county Farm Bureau has an
Ag in the classroom day on the farm serving up to 450 kids in 4Th grade. I have helped for several years leading groups thru it. I get the usual questions from the kids, but every year I'm amazed at the questions from the teachers and their aids. Some of these teachers are from small rural towns and they still have misconceptions about farming and agriculture in general. Whenever we talk to someone like this we need to use that moment wisely. Remember that person will have a different view of our world than we do. The average city dweller doesn't know that corn in those endless Fields they drive by , mostlikly won't end up directly on their plate. Keep in mind you have the opportunity to " win them over to our side" in that short conversation.

Don't drink the kool-aid!

In all seriousness, the young population is the most at risk for corruption by those involved in organization such as PETA. Good post.
 

bruiser

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My point is (sorry about the soapbox again) the PETA folks have their agenda down pat. They have enough members and dollars to make the politicians sit up and beg. They also have leadership that knows how to use their money and numbers to get their message out. This fight isn't about whether we use cages for chickens, crates for sows , confinement buildings or anything like that. THEY WANT US OUT OF BUSINESS- PERIOD- END OF DISCUSION  And I truly believe they think the government will provide for them.
 

Simmgal

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bruiser said:
My point is (sorry about the soapbox again) the PETA folks have their agenda down pat. They have enough members and dollars to make the politicians sit up and beg. They also have leadership that knows how to use their money and numbers to get their message out. This fight isn't about whether we use cages for chickens, crates for sows , confinement buildings or anything like that. THEY WANT US OUT OF BUSINESS- PERIOD- END OF DISCUSION  And I truly believe they think the government will provide for them.
The question that we, as animal stewards, have to ask is WILL the Government provide for them. At our expense.
 

RidinHeifer

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