Planned C-sections

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Doc

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. Any female that throws a 100lber out of JPJ has terminal bw issue of her own .  The JPJ son I've used had a 73lb bw. Hes out of a dunbeacon venture daughter that had a 102lb bw.  The bulls never thrown over 89.  And that was from a +4bw heifer.

Where did you get 90lb? The OP said vet called it as 100lbs- which is actually 42.29% larger than 70lbs.  If it were 90lbs, you're right it be almost 30% larger.
[/quote]

My bad on the 100 lbs. I thought I had read 90.

As far as the 100 lber calves by JPJ , I know of several people that have had 95 lb up to 110 lbs by him. They were out of different bred cows & out of cows on pasture , not out of show fed heifers.
 
C

cornish

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yes, these were heifers- only have done 3 sheep c- sections and a goat.

one year had left a bull calf in with a bunch of heifer calves to grow out-- ended up getting a bunch of them bred for 18 month old calvings.. 18 month old jersey heifers-- don't calve so well to a holstein bull.  that was 4 c- sections in a matter of no time-- the other was a prolapse with twins-- and we couldn't do anything.  it was basically the same as the sheep ones- but different all together.  when you do as much butchering as we do-- the insides of an animal aren't that hard to figure out. 

the 1-2-and 3 were a bloody mess.  by 4 we had a good idea of what to do- and on number 5--looking back we should have tried to save her-- it went pretty danged smooth. 

the person who suggested a different vet- really has no clue that vets aren't on every street corner just waiting around to do a c-section...
 

Showin a Shorty

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feed grass said:
yes, these were heifers- only have done 3 sheep c- sections and a goat.

one year had left a bull calf in with a bunch of heifer calves to grow out-- ended up getting a bunch of them bred for 18 month old calvings.. 18 month old jersey heifers-- don't calve so well to a holstein bull.  that was 4 c- sections in a matter of no time-- the other was a prolapse with twins-- and we couldn't do anything.  it was basically the same as the sheep ones- but different all together.  when you do as much butchering as we do-- the insides of an animal aren't that hard to figure out. 

the 1-2-and 3 were a bloody mess.  by 4 we had a good idea of what to do- and on number 5--looking back we should have tried to save her-- it went pretty danged smooth. 

the person who suggested a different vet- really has no clue that vets aren't on every street corner just waiting around to do a c-section...

No vets are not on every street corner waiting. Ours has about a 45 min drive without traffic. That is why it is being planned in the first place. We don't want to have to call the vet at 3 in the morning when she has been pushing for 2 hours and have to wait another hour or so for the vet to get there. I'm sure that you knew you were going to have 18 month old heifers calving you could have planned the same way instead of being hard headed. You could have also terminated the pregs in the first place, although that seems to be a lil too easy for your taste.  JMHO
 

OH Breeder

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feed grass said:
yes, these were heifers- only have done 3 sheep c- sections and a goat.

one year had left a bull calf in with a bunch of heifer calves to grow out-- ended up getting a bunch of them bred for 18 month old calvings.. 18 month old jersey heifers-- don't calve so well to a holstein bull.  that was 4 c- sections in a matter of no time-- the other was a prolapse with twins-- and we couldn't do anything.  it was basically the same as the sheep ones- but different all together.  when you do as much butchering as we do-- the insides of an animal aren't that hard to figure out. 

the 1-2-and 3 were a bloody mess.  by 4 we had a good idea of what to do- and on number 5--looking back we should have tried to save her-- it went pretty danged smooth. 

the person who suggested a different vet- really has no clue that vets aren't on every street corner just waiting around to do a c-section...


I am sitting here trying to figure out if that story is real. It is wrong on so many levels. You preformed surgery on cattle you had no training to do and without any anesthetic or even a local. You of all people run others down for "not planning" At some point before these heifers calved you had to know they were bred by the bull. So no attempt to have a vet come out and check them and set something up? They all 4 calved at same time? I don't think butchering and c-sections take the same skill for some reason they DEFINITELY have a different outcome. What you did was cruel. Next time just shoot them and don't cut them up alive so they can bleed out.
 

hamburgman

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I thought you the heifers were shot in the head and the calves taken out alive, which is what our local meat locker does.  However that last statement about trying to save the last one because it went smoothly makes me think otherwise.  Honestly if you did cut those cows without blocks or anything you are lucky to not be in jail or fined.  If I was your local vet, I believe if I knew this to be the case ethically I would have to turn you into authorities.
 

DLD

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I've had vets palpate cows within 30 days of calving, and give dire predictions of huge calves.  None of those ever had a 100+ lb calf or had any trouble calving.  Not saying they're always wrong by any means, just that it doesn't seem to me that palpation is an extremely accurate way to predict birth weight. 

If your vet is competent at c-sections and got to your cow soon enough, there's no reason to expect anything less than a live cow and calf.  My biggest concern is with the possibility of the cow not rebreeding afterward due to scarring and adhesions, but that's not a given.  We had a show heifer that had to have a c-section on her first calf (at 2) just because she didn't dilate.  I sold her last fall, because she didn't rebreed in last summers extreme heat and drought. She had just turned 14 and has raised a calf (and had one un-assissted) every year since she was 3.
 
C

cornish

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believe what you want.  our heifers fend for themselves- no preg checking- no AI'ing- no checking on in general.. Just show up and take them with a their calf when it happens-- or load a big bunch of them up and take them home as they get big bags.  can't terminate a preg you don't know about it. 

It's not as bloody of a mess as you would think, if you cut the right spots. 

They didn't calve at the same time-- but it was within a month of each other.  nothing abnormal from a normal calving season.

I guess I have nothing more to say on this thread- it seems childish that someone with experience would not tell others to avoid it so strongly-- and everyone else wants to promote it...  We live in a cruel environment-- fend for yourself- and if you can't-- it's survival of the fittest... O wait- show cattle people don't know what that's about-- it's all dolls and panty hoses. 
 

LostFarmer

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We have done a number of c-sections over the years.  The vet we have now that has been the vet for the last 20 years had always gotten a live calf out of the situation.  We have lost a couple of cows down the line with infection or just did not rebreed.  Nothing surprising about that.  I have had better luck getting one to rebreed after a c-section than after a real hard pull. 

I would start her and then see where it goes from there.  Be prepared either way. 
 

husker1

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Gotta throw in my 2 cents....

We've had several unplanned zippers through the years...We don't take chances; if it looks like it's gonna be tough coming out the natural way, they come out the side...especially on heifers or ET's.  

Past experience...have never had an issue with a C-Section.  This year, we had two C-sections.  1 out of my son's former bucket calf that had a pelvic issue (I know, she should've went to town anyway), and the other out of a purchased recipient cow that had a very small pelvis.  No problems at all, two lively, healty calves.  

Our vets (4 different ones) always comment that a C-Section is much easier on a calf than even a moderate pull...I agree with another post that most times the calf is up looking for lunch even before the stitching is done!

Birthweights...another of my pet peeves.  We all, myself included, always point a finger at the bull.  Who has more control of the equation in determining birthweight...the cow, without doubt!  Through the years, we've had a big one out of many of the most proven calving ease bulls in the Angus, Red Angus and Simmental breeds....at times we'd like to blame it on the bull...but it's the female's call...this stuff happens in the cattle business.

Best of luck on what should be a good outcome.
 

CAB

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It's Friday the 13th for sure now. I just got back in the house from having a vet recommended C-section on a 2nd calf Double Stuff cow. Just talked to a neighbor that had been having some tough luck with mal-presentations lately and must have cursed myself. Hadn't had a backwards calf for 2 years and this morning @ 1:30am pulled a backwards Rock Solid x Freestyle x EXT blazed faced bull calf. It went cool. Was a little later than normal cking cows this morning mostly B/C I was tried and it was raining. When I did get out, I saw this DS cow off to herself & went to grab a feed pan & feed to feed her thinking that she would have a calf laying beside her. No just 2 larger looking back feet sticking out, so I got her in and cked her out. Pretty good room, but big feet and the calf was laying on it's left side & was not wanting to move up into a better position so I decided to call in the experts and after discussing our options decided that a c-section was probably the best way to go. BTW, I thought that calf was dead B4 we started, but it is sometimes hard to tell with a backwards one. I could not get him to pull his back feet away from me.Got into the c-section and when the vet got a hold of a front leg she could tell it was still alive, ( she also thought that it was dead B4 we started, but hadn't wanted to say), so she kicked it in to another speed. It was time to get him out. A little Dopamine and some stimulation and he is doing well. Trying to get up and Mom was cooing to him. Sired by Show Business. I'm guessing 100 to 105lbs. Cow is a double carrier and smaller framed but did have  unassisted as a 1st calf heifer out of Northern Improvement. We'll watch her closely for a couple of weeks and follow up with antibiotics. I anticipate a very good outcome on this c-section, but we'll feel better a week from now more than likely. We have a half sib, Double Stuff, double carrier to her that is bred the same way and looks like she'll go over due date. She's due today also. All of my synced cows are. I'll watch due  dates in the future to avoid Friday the 13th.
 

cpubarn

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CAB,

I'm glad things went well on your calf.  Hopefully the planned C section will also go well. I will admit not wanting to comment as we have 1 heifer yet to calf.  A nice maine from Green Valley and didn't want to Jinx her either.

Good luck on your calving to all!

Mark
 

CAB

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Thanks Mark. I knew that when we bred the cows that we were looking @ the 13th of April but did not look @ whether it would be a Friday. Hopefully we're done with the curse now. About half done with calving. Hope everyone else is having a good day and got a nice rain today.
 

aj

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I think the club deal and show ring cattle have really screwed up calving ease. On this board its just part of the deal. I talked to a old guy a year ago who runs 200 cows for I don't know how many years. He told me he has heard of c-sections but has never seen one done.
 

DL

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I have glanced through these replies and some of them are way out of line  IMHO - if you own cattle you are responsible for them - this "fend for themselves" BS is not applicable to domesticated animals that we raise for food - cattle are domesticated animals (no matter their temperament - the last wild Auroch was poached in Poland in the 1600s - there are no truly wild cattle today) - if you are not taking care of your animals  you should not own them. If you want to do the "survival of the fittest" BS sit in the wood and watch the wild white tailed deer

C-sections - a surgical procedure performed on multiple species for multiple reasons. Like all surgical procedures the skill of the surgeon is important to the outcome.

A planned C-section has very little risk associated with it - the chance that the calf will be born alive and the heifer / cow will be fine is very good -
A well done CS will leave little in the way of scar tissue although it may affect re breeding it is not a major concern

An unplanned CS can be a disaster -  a dead and rotting  calf is a set up for infection for the dam and decreases your odds that the female will survive and if she does survive that she will not re breed 

An unplanned CS on a sick cow is also a set up for trouble as is a CS on a torsion with a dead calf

An unplanned CS on a cow that has been carefully watched  by a good  stockperson (ie the problem is recognized and dealt with early) often results in a good outcome for  the cow and may result in a good outcome for both the cow and  the calf -

it is when people do not pay attention, when they are not good observers, when they don't understand husbandry, when they fail in their role as care takers that cows and calves end up dead -

CAB - sounds like a good choice - glad it worked out

 

Doc

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feed grass said:
believe what you want.  our heifers fend for themselves- no preg checking- no AI'ing- no checking on in general.. Just show up and take them with a their calf when it happens-- or load a big bunch of them up and take them home as they get big bags.  can't terminate a preg you don't know about it. 

  We live in a cruel environment-- fend for yourself- and if you can't-- it's survival of the fittest... O wait- show cattle people don't know what that's about-- it's all dolls and panty hoses. 

no preg-checking? So you carry a hfr for 8,9,10 months open before you decide to ship her?

Boy, I'm glad I'm not an animal at your place. It's survival of the fittest, bullet in the head if a c-section, if they get sick do you give them any medicine or once again is it survival of the fittest?
 

twistedhshowstock

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I have to agree with the masses on here.  Yes there are C-Sections that are disasters, and many many people are scared of them or just shoot the cow instead of trying to save her because they believe it is most likely goin to end up that way anyway.  The problem is that they believe this only because they only ever here the horror stories.  Just like the news on television, the good outcomes very rarely ever get talked about.  I dont know what the vets exact game plan is, but the fact that they are scheduling for Monday and saying to induce on Sunday leads me to believe that they are going to reevaluate before they cut into the cow, and may possibly let her try it on her own.  But just like everyone said, well planned and well carried out C-Sections most often have good outcomes.  The ones that generally have bad outcomes are the ones when nobody was anticipating any trouble, then after watching the cow struggle spend more time trying to pull, which puts more stress on the cow and uterus and possibly causes tearing, then they realize its time to call the vet for a C-Section.  Having worked for vets and done a number of these, my personal opinion is that in the C-Sections that are complete disasters the most damage is often done before the section ever begins.  When you start in a bad scenario like that, its a lot more likely to end with a bad result.  I dont see any major reason for concern with this one, they caught the potential for trouble in advance, and they seem very well prepared to deal with it. 
As far as commercial cattleman not doing them and show producers doing them, it comes down to economics.  While there are some people who are fortunate enough to make a living with show cattle, for the majority of us it is a hobby. Whereas you are much more likely to see people earning their livin with commercial cattle, and they view ther commerical cattle operations much more as a business.  In there point of view the cost of doing a C-Section, and definately doing one in a manner to save the cow, the cost does not allow them to profit, therefor they dont do it. 
I am also glad that others have pointed out that the female plays just as big of a roll in calving ease as the bull.  A bull can only do so much for calving ease if the cow is full of genetics that throw half grown calves.  Also there are a lot weights being thrown around, but bw isnt all there is to calvin ease, yes it plays a roll but there are other factors as well.
Never the less, everyone is not oing to agree on this topic, or any topic for that matter.  It sounds to me like showin shorties did everythin possible to have a good outcome, and their planning started when they picked a calving ease bull that had worked in the past.  Its just part of the industry that things dont always go as planned.  So I think the only friendly and neihborly thing to do at this point is wish them luck and hope that they have a good outcome.
 

Pleasant Grove Farms

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Where do you get the idea that commercial guys don't do C-sections?
We live in South Dakota and in the midst of cattle country; our vets do LOTS of sections each year for commercial guys; our vets do them for economic reasons... salvage value on a cow is now about $1000; but even when it wasn't,
a live cow is worth a whole lot more than a dead cow is at the salebarn.
Also, a live calf is worth more; if the calf is already dead, the vets here don't do a section....instead they cut the calf up and deliver them that way, foregoing the section; morbid, but the calf is beyond salvaging anymore and you don't have the cost or trauma on the cow of the section.
I also would say that cattlemen and women by the most part here are caring of their livestock, opting for life instead of death and truthfully, I have never heard of anyone just shooting a cow because she could not deliver and they didn't want the cost of a section....but we are blessed with 4 excellent cattle vets in our small town right now so help is readily available when we need it.

BTW, you can tell if a backwards calf is alive by feeling a large vein on the inside of their leg; if there is a pulse then of course, the calf is alive.
 
C

cornish

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I did a herd tour, not more than a month ago in MO-- a place that gets spoke of on here time to time, and has really begun getting their peice of the pie in the last 2 or 3 years in terms of selling bulls...

and I quote;  'Oops, I shouldn't have brought you down to this corner of the pasture- there lies our last cow who was delivering a backwards calf.  B/c of the distance from any corner of the pasture to the corral, and the lack of a chute in every corral- we don't worry about those cows that are having trouble calving-- if they can't do it-- we'd just as soon shoot the cow as opposed to pull that calf...  but then again- I'm sure you have seen dead cows before"    and on went the tour.

This is not the only case of such an incident-- this is just the only case of a incident that anyone on here would recognize the producer's name.  I bet less than 10% of the cattle people in the county I grew up in- have ever heard of a c-section- let alone thought of doing one.  I think last time i checked- that county ranked in the top 10 in our state for number of cattle. 

Maybe the great show folk of steerplanet need to wake up and realize the cattle industry isn't all pampering and roses and doing 'what's right'.  The cost of a lead slug is far cheaper and easier than that of a vet call, c-Section, or the time it's going to take to round that wild ass cow up from a 200 acre pasture.  So what if you can't sell her- it's going to be forever before the weight loss from stress, stitches, and withdrawl times- heal up and clear away anyways.  To most people, it's about profit-- and dollars and cents.
 

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