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Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Polled Durhams and Shorthorns at 1904 Worlds Fair
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2015, 03:43:37 PM »
And speaking of Leader 21 and resonating phenotypes, I always thought this one looked a lot like Leader 21.
From the same book, 50 Years Among Shorthorns.
C.I.V. (80707), white, calved 1900, was bred by J. Deane Willis, and was in service in the Bapton herd for three seasons, during which time he was largely shown with much success. He was an exceptionally deep, wide-backed bull, with a rather short neck and plain-set horns. His crops were so wide that they made his ribs look less well sprung than they actually were. His flanks were full, and thighs deep and strong. He was shipped to the Argentine. He was by Brave Archer (70018), from Carnation, by Count Lavender (60545), her dam, Catchfly, by Gondomar (55821).
I think Count Lavender is the Bates cross in Bapton Sultan. I did have a photo of him, but can't find it.
How did senator Harris happen to scoop up the Sittydon females. He had a very eventful life.
//// I HAVE AN AUTOGRAPHED COPY of this book-and agree that the white bull looks like 21st-and is probably one of the better looking animals of all the photos.The book: 50 years Amongst Shorthorns by Robert Bruce. I found it in a used bookstore in London: way back in my brazen youth.-ITs signed by the author to Lord so and so (hard to read) Also have an original Alvin Sanders book SHORT-HORN CATTLE:1918-which I found at the same store. O0
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 03:48:36 PM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline r.n.reed

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Re: Polled Durhams and Shorthorns at 1904 Worlds Fair
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2015, 05:55:07 PM »
 Mark, that was quite a find,I think that is the only Shorthorn book I haven't read yet.There is a lot of insight and common sense in those old books and also a lot examples of pure foolishness as well.As Oakview has pointed out there is a lot of history in the old Shorthorn magazines as well.I feel sorry for breeders in the future who want to piece together the history of the breed from the 80's on.
 Librarian,Mr.Harris was on a bull buying trip through Kentucky visiting what was then the elite herds of the breed.These cattle were mainly Bates type and had been bred for pedigree alone and were self destructing.Harris was at his last stop and while walking through the persons Library he happened to see a catalog of Sittyton Cattle published by the Cruikshanks and instantly knew these were the cattle he needed for his new Kansas herd.The Sittyton boys saw him as an up and coming leader and for a period of 7 years 1883-1890 he received first pick of the cattle offered for sale from Sittyton.Here again a very condensed version.
Gary Kaper

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Polled Durhams and Shorthorns at 1904 Worlds Fair
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2015, 06:34:25 PM »
I wish I could put these books in better hands-Id trade them both for a couple 3 embryos or some semen-and maybe a few bucks. The Dark roan bull that looks like Teegardins (Oakwood) owned in the 30s MUST BE an early genetic contributer to the UNIQUE "popeyes" the Oakwood cattle had. You could spot them a mile away.CB Teegardin was MY IDOL-at the VA State Fair and at the Eastern National in Timonium MD.At that time-no one could touch thier polled Shorthorns-very unique-and dominated the show circuit-He brought a really good roan steer that won over all breeds at VA in about 1962-3. The Angus people werent pleased but also werent even CLOSE-I remember him being pretty good sized as well. I had a white steer there sired by one of his bulls (calf was from VA) that was only a senior calf but alot of people liked him-Teegardins helper came back to see him and I froze-deer in the headlights that a god of the industry would talk to me LOL.JMO-the Haumont bull is as good as it GOT-and right up there today-he seems to be more level along the rear of his topline than every decendent Ive seen other than the long yearling in your avatar-they all seem to roll in the same area:if that picture was in the 50s early 60s-I almost feel that the cattle were closer to a peak in terms of phenotype-you can correct at will tho-Im just going from pictures.O0
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 06:44:22 PM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline librarian

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Re: Polled Durhams and Shorthorns at 1904 Worlds Fair
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2015, 11:13:25 AM »
Maybe this guy, r.n.? I don't have a name with the picture, but he has that white spot on his chest.
And a picture of Oakwood Predictor, nabbed from okotoks thread on Meriwong Royal Grant, in relation to Australia.
Who is Commander in Chief?
http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/meriwong-royal-grant-pedigree/
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 11:14:49 AM by librarian »
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Offline librarian

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Re: Polled Durhams and Shorthorns at 1904 Worlds Fair
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2015, 11:21:35 AM »
And with all respect to Mark, if I could pick a bull from Bruce's book, I would choose Pearl King.
He is a grandson of one of my favorites and he reminds me of these others that are hard to beat.
Pearl King (79531), roan, calved 1900, was bred by Mr. T. Thompson, Prospect House, Lancaster, and largely exhibited by Mr. John Handley. As a two-year-old, he was first at the Royal, and in 1903 he won first and champion at the Royal Dublin Society and the Royal, and was exported to the Argentine. He was a long, level-fleshed bull, with beautiful hind quarters and good hair. He was got by Pro- spect Harold (75337), whose grandsire was Pride of Morning (64546), and from Dolly Pearl, by Pearl Eoyal (67584), a son of Mr. E. Thompson's Crown Pearl (58708).
First picture, Pearl King.
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Offline oakview

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Re: Polled Durhams and Shorthorns at 1904 Worlds Fair
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2015, 11:50:47 AM »
The top picture is almost a dead ringer for the photo of Oakwood Royal King from Teegardin's ad in the 1935 Shorthorn World I have.  Right down to the white spot on the brisket.  The photo in my magazine has been retouched, as was often the case for accenting the rear quarter.  The backgrounds are slightly different, but the bulls are extremely similar. 

It is interesting to note that in the descriptions of almost all of the bulls noted in this thread, they seem to all be held in high regard because of their show ring record.  Not unlike today.  In Bert Hanson's ad in the '35 Shorthorn World, he claims that his herd bull, Shadybrook Monarch x, was "69 times champion in America's largest shows."  Not a lot of breeders have been to 69 shows in their lifetime, let alone taking a bull to that many shows.    Bert says in his ad that they have followed the "center of the road" in their breeding program.  He still used that slogan in the 60's.  Mike Studer and Steve Torgerson "discovered" Bert's Shadybrook farm in the late 60's and were quite successful with their purchases. 

Offline r.n.reed

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Re: Polled Durhams and Shorthorns at 1904 Worlds Fair
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2015, 12:56:44 PM »
 The top bull is King Collynie Jr.Oakwood Royal King has good reason to look like JR. as they both are strong in the Marshall influence.Royal King was sired by Royal Count Jr.and out of a Count Jr.daughter.Royal King also happens to be the sire of Oakwood Emperor whose dam was sired by a Count Jr. son.Move over Frank Haumont.
 The Shadybrook herd was also very strong in the Marshall influence and they never strayed towards the pony type like many of the other herds did.Thiemans put their herd on the map with a paternal half brother to Royal Count Jr.
They added a line of ponys when they became popular but culled them when they realized their bull customers did not want them.
Gary Kaper

Offline oakview

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Re: Polled Durhams and Shorthorns at 1904 Worlds Fair
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2015, 02:23:07 PM »
You're right about King Collynie, Jr.  Had I turned 2 pages ahead in my magazine, I'd have seen the same picture posted on the thread.  I noticed it just after I posted earlier.  It was in Albert Hulstine's Gray Gables farm ad.  If I'd only taken the time to flip a page!  There is a striking resemblance between the two bulls.

Thieman's ad features their herd bull, Count Coronet, and what they call the "greatest Polled Shorthorn female." Vanity Queen.  She was three times champion at the International and never defeated in 1932, 33, 34, and 35. 

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Polled Durhams and Shorthorns at 1904 Worlds Fair
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2015, 02:43:35 PM »
That last bull , Thomas Leader 13C has always been one of my favorites from this time.  Looks to have carried quite a bit more muscle than his modern half bro, Coalpit Creek Leader 6th. 
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Offline librarian

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Re: Polled Durhams and Shorthorns at 1904 Worlds Fair
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2015, 12:55:59 PM »
I don't know, CCL6th is no slouch.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 12:59:28 PM by librarian »
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Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Polled Durhams and Shorthorns at 1904 Worlds Fair
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2015, 01:22:39 PM »
There's a lot to him, no doubt. It's the composition of these types that have always concerned me. How much of it is muscle I'm not so sure. 




It's a common theme to see the type of bulls in this topic presented w/ such a high level of conditioning that I don't know how anyone can accurately assess their composition.   I'd like to see the bulls in this topic in working condition at the end of the summer in a bcs 4-5 and see, once they lose all that fat, what's really left of them. 
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Offline r.n.reed

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Re: Polled Durhams and Shorthorns at 1904 Worlds Fair
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2015, 06:54:46 PM »
 Not much new under the Sun is there Ryan.Thats what strikes me when I read these old magazines,maybe a little more respect for the pedigree back then.It is still the one line pitch today and breeding cattle have to be fat to sell, you just have to find the line that melts the least and then hope that it produces in your environment.I just scanned my 2014 heifers which have some of this old breeding blended in their pedigree.They all exceeded 1'' rea/100,averaged under .10 fat and all but one had imf scores that would put them in the low choice range.Best of all the range of performance was narrow.A daughter of Frontline out of his dam had .05 rump fat,.06 rib fat and a 4.42 imf score at 379 days of age.I wintered these heifers for .68 cents a day.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 07:28:33 PM by r.n.reed »
Gary Kaper

Offline Okotoks

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Re: Polled Durhams and Shorthorns at 1904 Worlds Fair
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2015, 10:57:58 AM »
There's a lot to him, no doubt. It's the composition of these types that have always concerned me. How much of it is muscle I'm not so sure. 

http://youtu.be/r3WwRUyfiP4


It's a common theme to see the type of bulls in this topic presented w/ such a high level of conditioning that I don't know how anyone can accurately assess their composition.   I'd like to see the bulls in this topic in working condition at the end of the summer in a bcs 4-5 and see, once they lose all that fat, what's really left of them.

I worked in the program that had Thomas Leader 13C and have been to Y Lazy Y and saw Coalpit Creek Leader 6th. Although half brothers and very good bulls they were quite different in some ways. I do not believe Coalpitt Creek Leader 6th was ever pushed or saw much supplemental feeding so his high body condition is a testament to his ability to convert feed. He was a massive masculine bull with depth and a good fat cover when I saw him. Xbar you are correct in that Leader 13C carried more natural muscling. 13C was a smoother longer bull and is pictured on a pasture in eastern Alberta in an area that is considered semi desert. There actually is cacti and rattlesnakes at that pasture! The grass is a hard grass and cattle do well on it but they need to be able to travel and cover some ground.

Offline librarian

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Re: Polled Durhams and Shorthorns at 1904 Worlds Fair
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2015, 01:31:47 PM »
I found the picture of Count Lavender,who I thought was the Bates cross in Bapton Sultan.
Described by Robert Bruce in http://books.google.com/books?id=sFEMAAAAYAAJ&dq=robert%20bruce%20ireland%20agriculture%20shorthorns&pg=PA39#v=onepage&q=robert%20bruce%20ireland%20agriculture%20shorthorns&f=false
Shorthorn Bull "Booth and"Cruickshank"  "Count Lavender" (60,545).
Bred by William Duthie, Collynie, Tarves, N.B.  property of J. Deane Wills., Bapton

So I don't know who the Bates cross was.
Also another bull, described as "Cruckshank on a Bates foundation". This bull reminds me of Columbus.
What this thread has helped me understand is the usefulness of a percentage of old Scotch blood.
Usefulness in terms of how it can be effectively used to restore that ability to convert forage that the industry thought, briefly, was no longer necessary.
From what I can understand, a Scotch cross on a true old fashioned dual purpose Shorthorn must have been the best thing since sliced bread.
Record of Shorthorn Prize Winners, has many photos of bulls from the Whitehall Sultan era.
https://archive.org/stream/recordofshorthor01cowarich#page/6/mode/2up
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 04:05:04 PM by librarian »
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

Offline librarian

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Re: Polled Durhams and Shorthorns at 1904 Worlds Fair
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2015, 01:38:36 PM »
I thought I would post all these guys together.
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

 

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