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Offline BroncoFan

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Re: Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle
« Reply #750 on: October 27, 2015, 04:57:24 PM »
When I think of Shorthorns: pretty cattle with large birth weights, slow to nurse, no vigor (large birth weights the cause) slow to finish and hard to sell commercially. This is the stigma that dogs the breed, not TH. Not that any of these are accurate but they are the things I've heard over the years.
I have seen some real easy doing Shorthorn calves but I have also seen some hard doing ones as well.

I think you need to work on changing those perceptions before you try and hang the breeds struggles on Genetic defects. You can easily select a bull that will insure you do not have TH, I bet there are more THF bulls out there then there are calving ease. Even if the is bulls caving ease you have the cows side to deal with. I have a 50 50 shot of getting a THF calf out of a THC and a THF mating, how long will it take to breed calf size out of one?

Hereford is getting in on marketing the breed as a better choice on the grill, has Shorthorn?

I actually like a lot of the Shorthorn cattle I've seen, I just think your trying to pick low growing fruit in your cause, that has a lesser impact on the breed than a lot of other things.
Well said and way better than I tried to put it.
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Offline aj

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Re: Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle
« Reply #751 on: October 27, 2015, 09:32:23 PM »
In fifty years it will be interesting how the University writes up the Shorthorn breed in the genetic books. It will be something like........the Shorthorn breed isolated themselves from the beef industry because they embraced the th,pha, and ds genetic defects as they followed the path of the showring. They have been reclassified as bos th-aurus, bos pha-aurus, bos dsaurus. They will breed to bos taurus and bos indicus cattle and have fertile offspring. It was hoped by many that raising th cattle would be a cure against cancer and global warming......but that did not pan out. The BIF does not recognize the Shorthorn as a legit breed used in todays beef production.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline Okotoks

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Re: Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle
« Reply #752 on: October 27, 2015, 10:02:15 PM »
When I think of Shorthorns: pretty cattle with large birth weights, slow to nurse, no vigor (large birth weights the cause) slow to finish and hard to sell commercially. This is the stigma that dogs the breed, not TH. Not that any of these are accurate but they are the things I've heard over the years.
I have seen some real easy doing Shorthorn calves but I have also seen some hard doing ones as well.

I think you need to work on changing those perceptions before you try and hang the breeds struggles on Genetic defects. You can easily select a bull that will insure you do not have TH, I bet there are more THF bulls out there then there are calving ease. Even if the bulls is caving ease you have the cows side to deal with. I have a 50 50 shot of getting a THF calf out of a THC and a THF mating, how long will it take to breed calf size out of one?

Hereford is getting in on marketing the breed as a better choice on the grill, has Shorthorn?

I actually like a lot of the Shorthorn cattle I've seen, I just think your trying to pick low growing fruit in your cause, that has a lesser impact on the breed than a lot of other things.

I had said I was not going to post on this thread again as it gives the impression that Shorthorns are the only breed with genetic defects which is so far from the truth. I know a big commercial herd that uses Angus, Red Angus, Shorthorn and Simmental in their program and the lethal genetic defects they have dealt with are Angus.(half their herd bull battery is shorthorn and they breed 750 head) Here's a thread that shows Shorthorn can get the premiums for carcass they do it in Great Britain and now Australia. Here's a link to a thread on JBS's Shorthorn program in Australia.
http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/jbs-launches-shorthorn-branded-beef/
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 10:03:17 PM by Okotoks »

Offline knabe

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Re: Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle
« Reply #753 on: October 27, 2015, 11:12:30 PM »
the Shorthorn breed isolated themselves from the beef industry because they embraced the th,pha, and ds genetic defects as they followed the path of the showring.


here's a song for you ms. anti-shorthorn.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MK7qz13bU


be a good girl.  jr. high school will be over soon.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 11:13:36 PM by knabe »

Offline librarian

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Re: Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle
« Reply #754 on: October 28, 2015, 12:33:50 PM »
It was the beef industry that isolated itself from Shorthorns.
Later the beef industry isolated itself from Herefords.
Each of these great breeds was once number one.
Why has the Hereford Angus cross been so much more resilient in today's beef industry than Shorthorn Angus crosses?
Who is out there doing Herford Shorthorn crosses?
We need to think outside the black box.

'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

Offline caledon101

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Re: Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle
« Reply #755 on: October 28, 2015, 01:06:51 PM »
AJ.....I have to agree. I suspect history will not reflect favourably on how genetic defect issues were handled in this present era. Time will tell.
It's interesting that the shorthorn associations have no problem creating strict rules denying registration around hair coat colour but take a totally different approach on known fatal defect genes.
And I also agree that the breed has serious credibility issues around birth weights and commercial acceptance. The show ring has been a huge success for the breed but a breed should strive to be more than one dimension. Ultimately, these are all food animals; not pets.

Offline oakview

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Re: Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle
« Reply #756 on: October 28, 2015, 02:20:26 PM »
Who in the Shorthorn breed embraces TH and PHA?  How many bulls were sold in sales this year that were TH and/or PHA carriers?  I can only remember one or two bulls even offered for sale that were THC and only a handful of heifers.  Is this "embracing?"  In nearly every case, the animals in question were offered specifically as show animals and were clearly labeled.  There are so few of them that further discussion is nearly useless.  Again, study the program from the National Show and show me the huge numbers of TH and PHA carriers.  Their numbers will be very small.  Some of you make it appear that every Shorthorn led into a show ring is a genetic defect carrier.  That's simply not true.  The only place you'll see very many TH or PHA carriers is at a steer show.  And they'll all be black.  Make your own list of Shorthorn breeders that you know are actively using TH or PHA positive Shorthorn bulls.  I'll wager it won't be very long.   

Offline aj

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Re: Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle
« Reply #757 on: October 28, 2015, 02:41:07 PM »
I would like to see a list of the top 10 bulls for semen sales. I'd also be interested in say the number of active pedigrees that go back to say Doublestuff. I wonder if there is any way the pedigree computer could do that. If I remember right......the one year......doublestuff was the no. one bull in registrations. Some data like that would be interesting to show at the big meeting coming up.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline oakview

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Re: Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle
« Reply #758 on: October 28, 2015, 03:16:34 PM »
I would think a more useful search, at least for genetic abnormalities, would be of Improver rather than Double Stuff.  If I'm reading the ASA website correctly, the peak year for number of calves recorded by Double Stuff was 1998 with 772.  There were 8 in 2014 and 1 so far in 2015.  I don't think anybody knew TH from 4H in 1998.  I really don't know of many that might prize Double Stuff in their pedigrees like some of the other valued animals of today.  Is anybody using a son or grandson today?  Anybody have a cow herd made up mostly daughters or granddaughters?   

Offline BroncoFan

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Re: Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle
« Reply #759 on: October 28, 2015, 08:28:44 PM »
In my never to be humble opinion, the Shorthorn Association could go a long ways if they proved to the industry that color is only skin deep.  Shorthorns are doing well in the show ring but really how many feedlots across the nation are feeding out shorthorn steers.  Anyone have the data?
Kurt Fuller 406 680-7162

Offline aj

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Re: Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle
« Reply #760 on: October 28, 2015, 09:03:33 PM »
My point with Doublestuff is that he was a triple carrier. I think you could argue that ds could almost be tolerated......except that pha is floating around. If pha was eliminated the dsc condition becomes a almost nothing deal. Someone said no one uses thc bulls anymore. Damn Proud seems to be used. Is he dsc also.....?
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline oakview

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Re: Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle
« Reply #761 on: October 29, 2015, 09:37:52 AM »
Damn Proud and Vegas are about the only THC bulls that I see listed as sires in all the sale catalogs I get and there aren't a lot of them.  There just aren't many being used today in purebred herds.  In my opinion, TH and PHA will eventually become self eliminated due to the refusal of most breeders to use carrier bulls.  Club calf herds are an entirely different matter.

Offline librarian

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Re: Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle
« Reply #762 on: October 29, 2015, 09:49:00 AM »
Some people have been pointing out that
A. The genetic defect curse upon Shorthorns is already becoming irrelevant.
Why perpetuate a myth that Carriers are Winners?
That's bad press and sends a bad message to youngsters. The defects are already being bred out and animals are winning without carrying defects. The whole thing sounds like a superstition. Luck charms are rampant among gamblers, but they are not truths. The only reason to advertise falsehoods is to sell something to naive people.
The major Carriers of real interest are historic sires that remain useful for the purpose of replacing themselves with clean progeny. It's always handy to go back to the original to keep a bloodline from slipping away. Mate some clean half sibs and the genetic potency is preserved in clean form. But you need the original to get there. This is specialized work and should be left to those that have developed programs based on those bloodlines. They will clean things up because that's good business for them.

B. There are good Shorthorn breeders out there succeeding at selling bulls into commercial herds. These breeders already prioritize culling defect carriers from their programs.
Shorthorn sires do have offspring performing in feedlots, but they are crossbred.
Breeding commercially viable Shorthorn bulls is also specialized work and we should support those who have put in the time to build herds that will produce this type of bull. It's a limited market and for the time being we should only put our best programs forward.
Undermining the foundation that is being built, brick by brick,  among these breeders by promoting flash in the pan bulls of haphazard matings to commercial ranchers is what can hurt the breed. Nobody is going to get rich selling commercial bulls, but if we concentrate on sending commercial customers to a limited number of breeders who are cooperating instead of competing, the functional roots of Shorthorns will again take hold. This is the advertising challenge.
These are observations and realizations. Everybody can't be a breeder. I think we would get father, faster, as a breed by narrowing the field instead of trying to attract new members by selling unsustainable expectations. Maybe the Association doesn't need to be bigger, just more focused on growing new herds with seedstock packages of regional genetic strains. How is ASA meeting the needs of these breeders to gain recognition and increase access, as a group, to customers?


'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

Offline caledon101

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Re: Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle
« Reply #763 on: October 30, 2015, 06:12:58 PM »
I'm not sure it's an issue of how many or how few carrier animals are actually shown or not shown. It's the perception of the breed in general that's evolved. And, I believe that as long as the association leaders and managers avoid implementing a plan designed to slowly eradicate these genes from the breed population, the perception will persist.

As soon as someone points out the facts around the shorthorn association position on fatal defect genes the response is to project the attention away to the Angus breed and all the defects they have identified.

Question.....are there any other beef breeds in North America that have no policy in place to eradicate fatal defect genes? If the answer is no then I suggest that might explain the existing perception?

Offline Duncraggan

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Re: Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle
« Reply #764 on: October 31, 2015, 12:34:27 PM »
Some people have been pointing out that
A. The genetic defect curse upon Shorthorns is already becoming irrelevant.
Why perpetuate a myth that Carriers are Winners?
That's bad press and sends a bad message to youngsters. The defects are already being bred out and animals are winning without carrying defects. The whole thing sounds like a superstition. Luck charms are rampant among gamblers, but they are not truths. The only reason to advertise falsehoods is to sell something to naive people.
The major Carriers of real interest are historic sires that remain useful for the purpose of replacing themselves with clean progeny. It's always handy to go back to the original to keep a bloodline from slipping away. Mate some clean half sibs and the genetic potency is preserved in clean form. But you need the original to get there. This is specialized work and should be left to those that have developed programs based on those bloodlines. They will clean things up because that's good business for them.

B. There are good Shorthorn breeders out there succeeding at selling bulls into commercial herds. These breeders already prioritize culling defect carriers from their programs.
Shorthorn sires do have offspring performing in feedlots, but they are crossbred.
Breeding commercially viable Shorthorn bulls is also specialized work and we should support those who have put in the time to build herds that will produce this type of bull. It's a limited market and for the time being we should only put our best programs forward.
Undermining the foundation that is being built, brick by brick,  among these breeders by promoting flash in the pan bulls of haphazard matings to commercial ranchers is what can hurt the breed. Nobody is going to get rich selling commercial bulls, but if we concentrate on sending commercial customers to a limited number of breeders who are cooperating instead of competing, the functional roots of Shorthorns will again take hold. This is the advertising challenge.
These are observations and realizations. Everybody can't be a breeder. I think we would get father, faster, as a breed by narrowing the field instead of trying to attract new members by selling unsustainable expectations. Maybe the Association doesn't need to be bigger, just more focused on growing new herds with seedstock packages of regional genetic strains. How is ASA meeting the needs of these breeders to gain recognition and increase access, as a group, to customers?
This is the most insightful post I have read in a long time!

 

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