Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle

RyanChandler · Sep 29, 2014

No actually they are a step behind the Shorthorns as they register purebreds at 7/8. Id push to close the SH herd book altogether all while implementing the standards set forth by
the two leading contenders: Hereford and Angus.

caledon101 · Sep 29, 2014

Closing the Shorthorn Herd Book would be quite the debate. The breed has been in North America for 150+ years which is a long time to run an upgrading program.
Simmies have officially been in North America for less then 50 years. Both breeds have open herd books. I'm not sure how much revenue these associations generate through the upgrading program but I'm sure it would be a factor. Generating revenue is a prime directive for all of these associations.

phillse · Oct 2, 2014

Till-Hill said:
phillse said:

I think the primary difference is in how genetic defects are managed by the different breed associations. some associations do a better job than others. When TH and PHA came out the Simmental association would not register anything with shorthorn in the pedigree until verified by testing or pedigree that the animals were free of the defect. I tested the females that were the foundation blood for my shorthorns and Simmental. I was fortunate that all the sires I had used were tested clean also.

Also, shorthorns breeders have had a less unified consensus on the direction of the breed as a whole not to mention genetic defects.

Click to expand...

Simmental has done no such thing to me. I have a half blood this year and I reported she is out of a shorthorn x Angus cow. I have another I registered last year out of a different cow that I registered than reported that she is THC.

Till Hill

Not to question your experience I can only tell that is what happened years ago when PHA and TH first became a concern.

XBAR and Till Hill I am not saying simmentals are better than shorthorns. I have both shorthorns and simmentals so I don't have a reason to badmouth one association over the other. Are there things I disagree with both associations about? Yes

You voice your opinions to the leadership and work within the parameters set forth by each association. If you have more stringent requirements for your herd you let your conscious guide you.

Till-Hill · Oct 2, 2014

phillse said:
Till-Hill said:

phillse said:

I think the primary difference is in how genetic defects are managed by the different breed associations. some associations do a better job than others. When TH and PHA came out the Simmental association would not register anything with shorthorn in the pedigree until verified by testing or pedigree that the animals were free of the defect. I tested the females that were the foundation blood for my shorthorns and Simmental. I was fortunate that all the sires I had used were tested clean also.

Also, shorthorns breeders have had a less unified consensus on the direction of the breed as a whole not to mention genetic defects.

Click to expand...

Simmental has done no such thing to me. I have a half blood this year and I reported she is out of a shorthorn x Angus cow. I have another I registered last year out of a different cow that I registered than reported that she is THC.

Click to expand...

Till Hill

Not to question your experience I can only tell that is what happened years ago when PHA and TH first became a concern.

XBAR and Till Hill I am not saying simmentals are better than shorthorns. I have both shorthorns and simmentals so I don't have a reason to badmouth one association over the other. Are there things I disagree with both associations about? Yes

You voice your opinions to the leadership and work within the parameters set forth by each association. If you have more stringent requirements for your herd you let your conscious guide you.

I do not agree with the registrations on Simmentals either. I'm a young guy and get more pride breeding up than going out and buying the best and going from there.

Our "defect" cattle around are going into terminal production. Even using commercial angus cows to breed up is to costly for me to test for. At some point something will have to be done. Until then I will keep grading up.

phillse · Oct 2, 2014

Till Hill,

I bought a 3 shorthorn cows in 1999 and I also have been breeding up on shorthorns and simmentals. All of my simmentals to date are the product of breeding up and most of them were bred up off of Shorthorns. Myself and my dad both have jobs off of the farm, with about 40 cows with about 10 or so of both shorthorns and simmentals with the remainder being crossbreds. I have made mistakes in my breeding selections but am getting closer to my desired phenotype and performance. Many of the crossbred are cows moved out of the registered herd when suitable higher percentage cows entered production.

aj · Jan 18, 2015

Burnt my eyes out on this deal.....front to back. Didn't see any mention of heatseekers ds status.

shortyjock89 · Jan 18, 2015

When was the test for DS available for anyone's use? Buy a $40 straw of Heatseeker so bad and send it in if you want to know so badly you'd read through 40 pages of TH and PHA talk starting from around 7-8 years ago.

knabe · Jan 18, 2015

aj said:
Burnt my eyes out on this deal.....front to back. Didn't see any mention of heatseekers ds status.

One can only hope. Try a little harder and maybe your brain will too.

aj · Jan 19, 2015

If I do test him....would the results be postable on this discussion board. I think heatseeker semen is a 100 bucks. I might see if the genetic horizon guy could do something. With todays legal environment.....I didn't know if it was legal or not. I guess if just sent the sample in as bull at least I would know.

shortyjock89 · Jan 19, 2015

What does any of that even mean? What makes DS so special that you couldn't post the results? The clubby guys won't give a crap, and the Shorthorn people would care even less than that. I know for a fact the most expensive Heatseeker semen sold for in the last 18 months was $65 per straw.

aj · Jan 19, 2015

I stand corrected....maybe it was heatwave that genetic horizon lists at 100 bucks.

shortyjock89 · Jan 19, 2015

It may be listed for that, but if somebody wanted to buy it cheaper, it sells online every couple months and never brings that much.

Kind of like how a new truck lists for $68k, but if you pay sticker you're a fool.

aj · Jan 19, 2015

35$ vs. waiting a couple months....? You could argue that the two month wait could end up being a opportunity cost....in economic terms. So I think with the opportunity cost that would make it a 30$ difference....or less.

Dale · Mar 7, 2015

Will his name be changed to Triple Stuff, now that he's a confirmed triple carrier? How many other bulls have that same distinction? DL or somebody posted a list of double carriers prior to the DS defect.

trevorgreycattleco · Mar 8, 2015

It's not that difficult to me. Make a rule that forbids known carrier bulls be used in Seedstock production. Breed the cows clean. That way you're not eliminating any Particular bloodline. As far as a breeder suing the ASA over loss of income I say pass a new rule forbidding it. Let the whole assoc vote on it. Vote on everything. Not just the board. When Gene Hackman showed up in Hickory, Indiana, he sure set the bar high. Shook things up. Demanded their best. Any purebred breed should be just like that. Cull ruthlessly. Quit playing politics. Demand the best. Allow the Asa employees to speak freely on their opinions of different herds. Let them give recommendations. Any breed should be focused on improving the breed above all else. The interest of the ASA shouldn't sway to the influence of a big breeder over a little one. Keep it simple. Keep it honest. Let the cream rise regardless who breeds it. Everybody would be a lot farther along if we could all get out of each other's way. A good critter can come from a nobody just as easily as it can a big shot. The number of cattle you run doesn't reflect ones knowledge or skill. The fact a breeder is willing to propagate a potential wreck down the road for a short term gain shows their ignorance and greed. And personally they are not true cattleman. They are just salesmen.

Doc · Mar 8, 2015

E3 Durhams said:
It's not that difficult to me. Make a rule that forbids known carrier bulls be used in Seedstock production.You can forbid all you want, but unless you blood test every animal some people will still use them Breed the cows clean. That way you're not eliminating any Particular bloodline. As far as a breeder suing the ASA over loss of income I say pass a new rule forbidding it.How do you forbid someone from suing you ? I bet there is a lot of people out there that would like to know how to do that Let the whole assoc vote on it. Vote on everything. Not just the board. When Gene Hackman showed up in Hickory, Indiana, he sure set the bar high. Shook things up. Demanded their best. Any purebred breed should be just like that. Cull ruthlessly. Quit playing politics. Demand the best. Allow the Asa employees to speak freely on their opinions of different herds. Let them give recommendations. Any breed should be focused on improving the breed above all else. The interest of the ASA shouldn't sway to the influence of a big breeder over a little one. Keep it simple. Keep it honest. Let the cream rise regardless who breeds it. Everybody would be a lot farther along if we could all get out of each other's way.That's exactly right. And if someone wants to breed carriers , then let them. The buyers will determine if there is a market or not. A good critter can come from a nobody just as easily as it can a big shot. The number of cattle you run doesn't reflect ones knowledge or skill. The fact a breeder is willing to propagate a potential wreck down the road for a short term gain shows their ignorance and greed. And personally they are not true cattleman. They are just salesmen.

trevorgreycattleco · Mar 8, 2015

Then blood test every animal. God knows each member pays enough in dues. Set forth a rule stating a member cannot sue the association over genetic defects policy. At least something protecting them from being held liable for a breeders own actions. Set the standard. If a breeder wants to continue using carrier Bulls they can start another association for carrier cattle. The only reason there is a market for defective cattle now is because popular breeders have made them acceptable and judged worthy of winning a show. As long as the breed bows to the show ring the problems will persist.

knabe · Mar 8, 2015

E3 Durhams said:
It's not that difficult to me. Make a rule that forbids known carrier bulls be used in Seedstock production. Breed the cows clean. That way you're not eliminating any Particular bloodline. As far as a breeder suing the ASA over loss of income I say pass a new rule forbidding it. Let the whole assoc vote on it. Vote on everything. Not just the board. When Gene Hackman showed up in Hickory, Indiana, he sure set the bar high. Shook things up. Demanded their best. Any purebred breed should be just like that. Cull ruthlessly. Quit playing politics. Demand the best. Allow the Asa employees to speak freely on their opinions of different herds. Let them give recommendations. Any breed should be focused on improving the breed above all else. The interest of the ASA shouldn't sway to the influence of a big breeder over a little one. Keep it simple. Keep it honest. Let the cream rise regardless who breeds it. Everybody would be a lot farther along if we could all get out of each other's way. A good critter can come from a nobody just as easily as it can a big shot. The number of cattle you run doesn't reflect ones knowledge or skill. The fact a breeder is willing to propagate a potential wreck down the road for a short term gain shows their ignorance and greed. And personally they are not true cattleman. They are just salesmen.

Lenin, Wilson, teddy Roosevelt, Mao, Stalin, Obama, pot, Mussolini, fdr, UN, would be proud.

Founders warned of a pure democracy. Course no one ever thinks about that or understands it's tyranny.

knabe · Mar 8, 2015

E3 Durhams said:
Then blood test every animal. God knows each member pays enough in dues. Set forth a rule stating a member cannot sue the association over genetic defects policy. At least something protecting them from being held liable for a breeders own actions. Set the standard. If a breeder wants to continue using carrier Bulls they can start another association for carrier cattle. The only reason there is a market for defective cattle now is because popular breeders have made them acceptable and judged worthy of winning a show. As long as the breed bows to the show ring the problems will persist.

Aj jr, why don't you just make something. There are plenty of choices out there.

Instead you waste your energy thinking how to be dictator.

knabe · Mar 8, 2015

E3 Durhams said:
Set the standard.

I've got a few great ideas.

1. Start your own breed, call it shortfects, shorthorns without defects.
2. Outlaw anyone else except you to have shorthorns. Decisions could be made easier, consequence, another matter.
3. Hire aj as president.
4. When your best bull/cow whatever, happens to be a carrier, cull it immediately. Take out a full page in the New York Times and let everyone know that all your carriers will be slaughtered immediately rather than breed the defect out.
5. Establish new accounting scheme to depreciate carriers.

Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle

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