Steer Planet - Show Steers and Club Calves Forum

Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: 4C on January 16, 2011, 01:40:23 PM

Title: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: 4C on January 16, 2011, 01:40:23 PM
This practice is runninlg rampant in our area, and I feel probably across the entire state of Texas and who knows how many other states!  Here locally, we've tried to get show management, veterinarians, slaughter plants, etc.. to work together to identify and nail the culprits, but with no success.  It seems that none of these entities want to "stick their necks out" in order to attack and do away with this activity.  I'm talking even at the big Texas majors!  My question is whether any of you all throughout the nation have experienced this and if it has successfully been eliminated.  This is extremely discouraging to the majority of us that have a conscience and like to sleep good at night without having to lower ourselves to such extreme levels in order to get to the winner's circle.  Any feedback is greatly appreciated!
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: knabe on January 16, 2011, 02:58:28 PM
fizzies?
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: rasor club calves on January 16, 2011, 03:45:49 PM
at some jackpots here in ohio that are juiner shows people are taking there calves out to there trailers and pumping them. At a show we heard a lot of rucuss coming from the trailer beside us.
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: buddy love on January 16, 2011, 04:26:13 PM
it is going on in kansas to at our jr. shows to
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: CM Cattle on January 16, 2011, 04:36:38 PM
What does pumping, or airing even mean? ???
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: showsteernc on January 16, 2011, 04:40:44 PM
This practice has gone on for awhile. I have heard a lot of stories from Texas boys that they bring in a certain trailer to every major and are getting everything fine tuned to the best degree they can. This is one of those practices which is going to continue no matter what. The thing about this is, is air isn't the only thing you can use to get the same results. They are a couple of other secrets the big jocks have that are in that gray area but aren't specifically illegal.
To CM, airing is where you take the animal, use a needle connected to a small air compressor, insert in the skin and it breaks the bind between the skin and muscle layer. You feed them a high fat ration after doing this and the fat fills in the new space that has been created. Pumping is where you stick a certain type of hose down a calf and put water or other liquids in them to give them more fill or to rehydrate them.
To rasor cc, pumping is the last thing I would be worried about going on at the shows.
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: 4C on January 16, 2011, 06:59:50 PM
when i wrote "pumping" i meant it as to say pumping air.........i was not referring to stomoach/esophageal pumping of fluids
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: Show stopper 95 on January 16, 2011, 07:39:54 PM
theres no way you can stop it. there is always some way ppl will try get ahead of the competition. its a part of the business. if they crack down on airing they will call that unethical whatever. same concept can be said for implanting, pumping, fake hair even feed supplements, ect. so if they get rid of one thing. pressure will be on to get rid of anything that can possibly seperate the top of the class to the bottom. therefore no body will be able to be ahead of the competition. take it for what its worth but if one thing goes. its all going to go
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: DCC show cattle on January 16, 2011, 08:36:19 PM
It has gone on for a long time and there is no way to track it after the carcass has healed I did a project on it not the most ethical but as stated there are other ways that some jocks change cattle that are way worse than bustin the skin membrane and enhancing the look of a calf with external fat. I havent seen it done just asked and researched the topic quite a bit. A good calf with be a good calf no question. Best way to win is to buy them good and feed them good. In my opinion no real way of stoping it so find some better cattle and compete with them (general statement not attacking anyones cattle or intergrity their choices are their choices). In saying that I was blessed with 4 breed or reserve breeds at houston both heifers and steers and none of those cattle had been aired just feed consistently and worked everyday! Goodluck this year guys!
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: JY on January 16, 2011, 09:01:44 PM
In Texas 10 years ago they sonogramed the cattle at San Antonio and Houston for a few years during that time all the manufacturing practices were at an all time low. Maybe because they did think they would get caught it did not happen near as much. Then they stopped sonograming, reasons you hear is cost or they did not catch anyone. Wish they would start up again anything is better then what goes on now.
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: chambero on January 16, 2011, 10:01:18 PM
There is nothing to catch with a sonogram.  It is just fat and you cant tell what is normal and what isnt.  Airing is a very old practice- at least going back to the 70s.  And yes, it is very common.  In reality, it is an old habit for some.  I don't think it passes the logic test for actually doing an appreciable amount of good.  At best, it could result in minor differences among top end calves at majors.
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: JY on January 16, 2011, 10:36:26 PM
Wasn't refering to cattle that had been aired earlier in their feeding period. No you could not tell, but when A& M did their reasearch on  fresh air and oil and water the folks that witnessed the experiments and the checking it with a sonogram said you would see a " black hole"  if there was something fresh under the hide. Don't know anything about some of the tings that have been figured out since then. An d not to say that they could catch everyone then, but it was definately a deterant.
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: gobigorgohome on January 17, 2011, 03:30:26 PM
i don't see what the big deal is. its just enhancements same as feed supplements fake hair adhesives and anything your fitter does to create and illusion on your calf and like showstopper said if you get rid of one thing then you have to get rid of everything. its not like its plastic surgery and you have completely changed your calf. its like saying a **** job on a woman is unethical. sure its not fair when you don't go as far as airing pumping and implanting and you get beat by one who has but that's what separates the best from the rest.
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: GoWyo on January 17, 2011, 03:50:43 PM
Actually it is like plastic surgery and it is a cosmetic enhancement that does not have any veterinary health value.  The "enhanced" calf is a phony fraud.
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: JY on January 17, 2011, 04:18:08 PM
There is a very big difference between implanting  one with a implant that is legal for cattle, feeding any of the products like showmaxx, optiflex that is approved for use in beef cattle and the unelical problems that 4C is addressing. Unfortunately it is a put your head in the sand and ignore the rules our shows have in place. By the way in a slick shear show there is no hair longer then 1/4 inch so there is no twining or fake hair even at Ft. Worth they won't allow it. Large difference between twine on the legs, underline, or tailhead as far as animal welfare goes and if anything ever happens that exploits some of the things done it would be tough for junior show to continue.
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: Redwine Cattle on January 17, 2011, 04:19:32 PM
i don't see what the big deal is. its just enhancements same as feed supplements fake hair adhesives and anything your fitter does to create and illusion on your calf and like showstopper said if you get rid of one thing then you have to get rid of everything. its not like its plastic surgery and you have completely changed your calf. its like saying a **** job on a woman is unethical. sure its not fair when you don't go as far as airing pumping and implanting and you get beat by one who has but that's what separates the best from the rest.

You are wrong. It is like plastic surgery. Basically you are saying that if you stand second to a calf that has been artifically enhanced, you essentially deserve to be second because you didn't do the necessary steps in order to be the best? I think your entire post is nothing more than a childish, selfish, and unthethical excuse to cheat. Apparently you can't raise good enough cattle to win without artifically enhancing them, so you are attempting to rationalize the actions of someone that doesn't deserve to be in the barn. I feel the same way about twining a calfs leg to appear larger boned. The problem with comparing it to breast augmentation, is that the women who decide to have it done do it knowingly, with their consent, also, they do not compete in contests. Using adhesive doesn't create something that the calf genetically doesn't already have, or naturally grow, the same with clippers, they don't create anything that the calf doesn't already have.
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: showsteernc on January 17, 2011, 04:27:05 PM
i don't see what the big deal is. its just enhancements same as feed supplements fake hair adhesives and anything your fitter does to create and illusion on your calf and like showstopper said if you get rid of one thing then you have to get rid of everything. its not like its plastic surgery and you have completely changed your calf. its like saying a **** job on a woman is unethical. sure its not fair when you don't go as far as airing pumping and implanting and you get beat by one who has but that's what separates the best from the rest.

 The problem with comparing it to breast augmentation, is that the women who decide to have it done do it knowingly, with their consent, also, they do not compete in contests.
Oh yes they do, beauty contests. Sorry, but that is whole other can of worms that probably shouldn't be brought into this discussion.
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: farmin female on January 17, 2011, 05:30:23 PM
i don't see what the big deal is. its just enhancements same as feed supplements fake hair adhesives and anything your fitter does to create and illusion on your calf and like showstopper said if you get rid of one thing then you have to get rid of everything. its not like its plastic surgery and you have completely changed your calf. its like saying a **** job on a woman is unethical. sure its not fair when you don't go as far as airing pumping and implanting and you get beat by one who has but that's what separates the best from the rest.

 The problem with comparing it to breast augmentation, is that the women who decide to have it done do it knowingly, with their consent, also, they do not compete in contests.
Oh yes they do, beauty contests. Sorry, but that is whole other can of worms that probably shouldn't be brought into this discussion.

This is getting to be one of my pet peeves on this site, every time a truly controversal topic is brought up someone jumps right in there and says we shouldn't discuss it.  Sorry, you can't use the excuse that this site might be monitored by undesirables all the time cause it's just crying wolf to me.  These topics need to be discussed and brought out into the open so it is understood that there are a significant number of people out there who don't agree with these actions.  Injecting, pumping, filling - they are all immoral and unethical.  But you do what you choose to win.  Don't drag me down the same road as you though.
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: gobigorgohome on January 17, 2011, 06:13:36 PM
its illegal and frowned apon, the risk is anyones to take enough said i believe.
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: showsteernc on January 17, 2011, 08:34:20 PM
i don't see what the big deal is. its just enhancements same as feed supplements fake hair adhesives and anything your fitter does to create and illusion on your calf and like showstopper said if you get rid of one thing then you have to get rid of everything. its not like its plastic surgery and you have completely changed your calf. its like saying a **** job on a woman is unethical. sure its not fair when you don't go as far as airing pumping and implanting and you get beat by one who has but that's what separates the best from the rest.

 The problem with comparing it to breast augmentation, is that the women who decide to have it done do it knowingly, with their consent, also, they do not compete in contests.
Oh yes they do, beauty contests. Sorry, but that is whole other can of worms that probably shouldn't be brought into this discussion.

This is getting to be one of my pet peeves on this site, every time a truly controversal topic is brought up someone jumps right in there and says we shouldn't discuss it.  Sorry, you can't use the excuse that this site might be monitored by undesirables all the time cause it's just crying wolf to me.  These topics need to be discussed and brought out into the open so it is understood that there are a significant number of people out there who don't agree with these actions.  Injecting, pumping, filling - they are all immoral and unethical.  But you do what you choose to win.  Don't drag me down the same road as you though.
FWIW, I was saying the discussion about humans and airing (to be polite) was a can of worms. If you look back, I was openly discussing airing and the ethics behind it.
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: JTM on January 17, 2011, 09:38:25 PM
I do know for a fact that the Ohio Cattlemen's Association is bringing in the Ohio Department of Agriculture this show season to check cattle for air pumping. This is reportedly a problem in Ohio right now and there have been some complaints. These kinds of practices need to be stopped. There needs to be a crackdown on this and the people who are doing it need to be banned from showing in certain sanctioned shows and their breed association needs to be contacted and get involved in the cheating. A lot of the problems are probably in the crossbred classes but the breed associations can take action to ban breeders from registering cattle and kick them out of the association. In my opinion, other unethical practices like reporting false birthdates on show cattle and false birthweights needs to be stopped. It's ridiculous when people are showing a calf as a May and it is a March. Different thread.
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: DLD on January 17, 2011, 10:03:32 PM
There've been a couple of good discussions about this in the past, if you'll take the time to use the search feature and find them.  As chambero said, it's certainly nothing new - it predates the 1970's even, maybe by quite a bit.  It also does not make the huge, drastic difference in a calf that many seem to think it does - chances are if you got beat by one that's been aired, the same calf would've probably beat you without the air anyway.  It can't make a light muscled one heavy muscled, or a bad one into a good one. There is no way of knowing it's been done, unless there's actually still air there - if there is, then by all means crucify them, but 'most anyone that does it won't show one before the air goes away.  I know that none of that makes it any more right, and I'm sure not defending it, but I really don't see any way to change it.
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: Show Time King on January 18, 2011, 06:30:17 AM
Actually it is like plastic surgery and it is a cosmetic enhancement that does not have any veterinary health value.  The "enhanced" calf is a phony fraud.

I dont want to really get into the middle of this but I just couldn't help but look at it in this way. Yes, your technically cosmetically altering your calve and changing its appearance to win. But look at it this way. Women who compete in pageants "fit" themselves up and even get "cosmetically" altering surgery to better there apperance or chances of winning. Its the same in the cattle world and its only human to try and experiment to make things better. Is it right or ethical? Heck no,  but are we gonna change it? imo I don't think we can at this point in time. Until people can prove that its being done then we just have to deal with it at this time.

I myself have never aired anything but can say that I dont think its a "crime" that someone airs a hip or a top. Its wrong and I dont like it but what I can't stand is some of these big time breeders that play arts and crafts with there sale calves just to turn a 5,000 dollar steer into a 30,000 dollar steer. I mean thats like turning Betty White into Jessica Alba. (No Pun Intended Betty White is awesome) but just saying.

I hope I didn't offend anyone and As I stated I do not agree at all with airing of cattle I was just trying to throw a point I thought was valid into the mix
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: farwest on January 18, 2011, 08:31:03 AM
What bothers me most about it is its big ammo for peta and hsus when they get ahold of it.
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: 4C on January 18, 2011, 08:34:37 AM
I can't believe people are ignorant enough to be comparing airing of showcalves to the body augmentations of women that participate in beauty pageants.  I'd venture to say that there are no rules/policies in beauty pageants that ban participants from having any parts of their body "enhanced".  There are RULES (you know guidelines that good/honest people follow) in place at most shows throughout the country that specifically ban unethical fitting which physically or physiologically attempts to alter the natural confirmation or musculature of an animal.  Enough of these asinine comparisons to the beauty contests!  Apples and oranges, BIG TIME!
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: Redwine Cattle on January 18, 2011, 08:50:20 AM
I agree with that. There is not a way (at this point) to effectively test or control these activities. I also agree with your statement about women competing in pageants. I didn't think about that before, and after looking at the rules for pageants like "miss america" they do not have an actual "rule" that says no cosmetic surgery. Although they have tried many different ways to control it, they haven't found one that is effective yet.

My problem with it is that women make the choice to do it. When someone does it to their cattle, I seriously doubt they ask them for their consent. Now I also think to my own operation when I say that, and I find it difficult to not consider dehorning for an example. I'm sure that hurts like no other, and I didn't ask for consent when I had it done to them either. I'm sure if it was up to them they would just as well leave their horns where they are. But we dehorn them anyway. In my opinion there is definitely a fine line. A line that is extremely difficult to draw.

Cattle are cattle, they are put on this earth for beef. We as breeders/owners of cattle do our best to care for them to the best of our ability. I guess the bottom line for me is this, when I look at myself in the mirror and go to bed at night, I can feel good that I did my best. I am a golfer, a game of integrity. I take the same approach to cattle, and if a calf that I raised stands second or third or seventh, I will know that I did everything right. That there is nothing about that calf that god didn't give it. If he doesn't win because he cuts up in his flank, then next year I will try and breed that cow to a bull that will add a little depth and try again. That is what I enjoy about this, and I sincerely hope my children will do the same.      
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: GoWyo on January 18, 2011, 09:04:10 AM
There is a difference between dehorning (has a veterinary/animal health/safety value) and doing mechanical work under the skin of your animal to make it look like something it is not in order to win a prize or to boost its perceived value.  Not only is it against most show rules from an animal health standpoint, but it is a fraud upon each and every other exhibitor, the show committee, the public, and any purchaser of your animal.  It boils down to theft, plain and simple, and there is no way to justify it. 

The hard part is catching it because it is difficult to prove.  If you see it happening, document it and follow the show protest procedures to the "T," but be prepared for the other fraudsters to ostracize you.  You will find out who your friends are very quickly.
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: pjkjr4 on January 18, 2011, 09:05:27 AM
Interesting discussion here. Probably one of the best that I've read on here in quite some time. This is the reason I'm a steer planet junkie!

In my opinion, the answer to the original post is probably not. Is it ethical? That is for you to decide. If you do it, don't tell me about it, because frankly I don't really care what you do with your calf. Your're the one that will have to sleep with that. I also agree with the post that said it doesn't do much, because it doesn't. Does it grow more hair? No. Does it give the impression of heavier bone? No. Does it clean up a front end? No. Does it accentuate a thicker top or hip? A little, but not very much.

I think we all agree that one of the main goals we have for our cattle, is to make them better in the show ring than what they really are. Some people just use questionable tactics and techniques to do so. It's called being competitive. I'm not taking up for those people, but I damn sure want to beat them.
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: Redwine Cattle on January 18, 2011, 09:22:45 AM
There is a difference between dehorning (has a veterinary/animal health/safety value) and doing mechanical work under the skin of your animal to make it look like something it is not in order to win a prize or to boost its perceived value.  Not only is it against most show rules from an animal health standpoint, but it is a fraud upon each and every other exhibitor, the show committee, the public, and any purchaser of your animal.  It boils down to theft, plain and simple, and there is no way to justify it.

I couldn't agree more with this. I was simply trying to think of a contradiction to my arguement with the dehorning thing. It's all about character, there is no way to police it. In today's society I am not surprised in the least at what measures some will take to "get ahead" whether it actually does or not. Sickening.

The same goes for birthweights. There was a post in the classifieds for a September born heifer, I actually had some conversation with the poster who has the animal for sale and he cited possibilties for her size, and I am certainly not saying he is lying, I have no clue. But I also have 2 september heifers that were born within a week of that same heifer and both are outweighed by id say 200 pounds. But, it sucks to have your heifer papered with her actual birthweight and she goes to a show, is the smallest heifer there ( although exceeding breed averages for weaning and yearling weight by quite a bit) and the judge says she just doesn't have enough "grow" to her compared the the other heifers in the class. But I digress, sorry to change the subject...
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: ai er on January 18, 2011, 11:58:59 AM
I can't believe people are ignorant enough to be comparing airing of showcalves to the body augmentations of women that participate in beauty pageants.  I'd venture to say that there are no rules/policies in beauty pageants that ban participants from having any parts of their body "enhanced".  There are RULES (you know guidelines that good/honest people follow) in place at most shows throughout the country that specifically ban unethical fitting which physically or physiologically attempts to alter the natural confirmation or musculature of an animal.  Enough of these asinine comparisons to the beauty contests!  Apples and oranges, BIG TIME!

I agree totally.
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: STX108 on February 01, 2011, 01:00:20 PM
I can handle getting beat by a better calf but not by an illegally "doctored up" calf....It bothers me more that my children get cheated out of their proper placing or winnings....
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: $mt$ on February 01, 2011, 06:16:57 PM
not sayin its right but u will be beat by a judge or just a flat out better calf a heck of alot more than u will a fitter or jock . so keep tryin ur day will come....   or not ??   but u had fun tryin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: 4C on February 01, 2011, 08:10:51 PM
You know STX108, the somewhat amusing thing of it all is down here its the same guys that go around pointing at and bad mouthing each other. Yet when at shows, they are hanging out and best of buddies!  What's the old saying, "birds of the same feather..................."!!!!
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: aj on October 10, 2021, 11:59:24 AM
bump
Title: Re: Pumping/Airing of Showsteers-Any way to control this?
Post by: knabe on October 12, 2021, 03:16:14 PM
complaining about pha carriers but taking them to denver.


bump