retaining the right to flush a heifer calf

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TPX

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Why do so many people do this? As a buyer I see this as huge turn off on bidding on that animal, usually we will talk to the seller before the sale to see if they are dead set on it or not and most are willing to drop it.  My thing is why even do it in the first place.  First off if I am going to pay good money on a heifer its b/c shes good and has the gentics that I am looking for and I dont want to have to share her with others and also take a year of production away.  Why would you take  a flush on a heifer that has never uddered up or raised a calf, I know of some people that will flush at this stage of life before that animal has ever raised a calf.  We never flush our own cows but have thought about it but would only use the embryos in our own herd.  I geuss what I am saying is that I thinnk that you maybe chasing more people away by putting that stipulation in there.
 

Dusty

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They do that in case she ends up being a home run hitter they can still get some genetics back out of her.  I think it rarely happens where a breeder wants the female back for his one flush with regards to club calves.  For one thing they get traded so many times that you'll never know where they end up.  It's just kind of insurance in case she's the next big thing.  Kind of like a lot of the big bull sales like Express and what not usually retain 1/3 semen interest on all the bulls selling.  They do this in case one of them ends up being a home run.  It's usually not an issue.
 

Doc

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I'll do it on a hfr if I want to make sure I keep some of those genetics for my herd. I don't understand how you're going to lose a year of production. Now the one thing I won't do , is buy something from say Sullivan, Kolt, Steinke or anyone else that keeps DNA clone rights to everything they sell. The chance of me affording anything that they are going to want to clone is slim to none ,but it's the princple of it.
 

PhilMcKracken

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Why is it such a problem for a producer to keep a very slim interest in a female they are selling.  As a producer and a buyer, it is a compliment that someone feels good enough about that individual to use them themselves.  Why would it be such a problem when youk now this up front when go buy a good female?  Cloning rights? thats a little different.
 

DLD

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As others have said, retaining a right to a flush is usually just insurance in case she turns out to be a great one and/or in case her particular genetics might be desired (say for instance 3 or 4 years down the road her mother dies without ever having produced another heifer calf, and the breeder only sold that one thinking they'd get to keep a sister or two later on).  Very few breeders will want to flush a virgin heifer, and if that concerns you (it does me) you should be able to get the breeder to agree not to do that.  It will prob'ly be a couple of years down the road, at least.  And it certainly won't cost you a year of production - it'll take maybe 6 or 8 weeks max, and most of the time it's stated to be at the buyers (that's your) convenience - work it right and she can still have a natural calf a year after her last one.

Buyers have different reasons for doing it.  Sometimes a breeder would really like to keep the genetics of the heifer to build their herd with, but just can't afford not to sell her, especially if she's bringing a premium as a show heifer.  Sometimes breeders or traders will do it simply to make the heifer seem more desirable to potential buyers because they (the sellers) think enough of her to retain that interest (those can usually be talked out of it if it's a deal breaker).

I personally have no problem with it as a buyer or a seller - as others have said though, retaining cloning rights is a bit much for me.
 

Steered

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Lets play "what if" here...
I buy a heifer that the seller retains a flush right on.  I don't do ET in my herd.  The seller looses the dam of my heifer and requests to flush her and we work out the particulars.  For some reason after the flush she will not re-breed. (I know that this would be a very rare occurance but I also know how my luck runs!)  What now?  Am I screwed?  Does the seller compensate me?  How should this be handled?  I think that it should be addressed before any flush was attempted.  I know that if I choose to flush her it could happan and it would be my loss to stand, but if the seller is the only one that has flushed her I think he should stand the loss. 

My opinion on retained flush rights (or dna) is that they want to have their cake and eat it too.  If the dam is that important to you that you want to keep a heifer to keep the line going, do that before you ever sell one.  JMHO.
 

shortyjock89

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If I were the seller, I would compensate you...and I think most people would, or at least give you credit for use at their place... But there are SOME who would probably say "too bad about that"....  I think everything should be put down into writing before the flush takes place, and a detailed physical exam of the female in question should be done before the flush too in case the seller says something like "She was too fat to breed" or "She wouldn't carry a calf"....document everything just in case they try to take you for a fool.  Sounds paranoid, but I would rather have a very good back up plan than a heifer that wouldn't breed, and it being someone else's fault.
 

RSC

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Steered said:
Lets play "what if" here...
I buy a heifer that the seller retains a flush right on.  I don't do ET in my herd.  The seller looses the dam of my heifer and requests to flush her and we work out the particulars.  For some reason after the flush she will not re-breed. (I know that this would be a very rare occurance but I also know how my luck runs!)  What now?  Am I screwed?  Does the seller compensate me?  How should this be handled?  I think that it should be addressed before any flush was attempted.  I know that if I choose to flush her it could happan and it would be my loss to stand, but if the seller is the only one that has flushed her I think he should stand the loss. 

My opinion on retained flush rights (or dna) is that they want to have their cake and eat it too.  If the dam is that important to you that you want to keep a heifer to keep the line going, do that before you ever sell one.  JMHO.
I understand your concerns and it is a touchy subject.  IMO, the buyers of that heifer want to have their cake and eat it too.  If you or others that are looking for heifers  every year, Know  that I am keeping my best heifers and not selling them, theres a good chance you will start bypassing my sale.  With a seller retaining a flush down the road, at least you know that he is selling something he is proud of.

I have one on our sale that I feel the same way about,  I don't want to let her go but I feel we need to offer her.  I am not retaining a flush but sure hope that I can build a relationship with the buyer or hopefully already have one and work a deal a couple years down the road to get a chance to flush her.

If you state your concerns upfront, it may be a win/win for both of you.  Maybe you don't flush all that much of your own and you can get the chance to share in the oppurtunity and have the Seller help you with Marketing.  Just some thoughts of mine.

RSC
 

shortyjock89

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RSC, good points! I was just thinking the same thing and was going to edit my post a bit, but you beat me to it!  I wish I could make it out to your sale, looks like there are some really nice calves in it.
 

RSC

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Olson Family Shorthorns said:
RSC, good points! I was just thinking the same thing and was going to edit my post a bit, but you beat me to it!   I wish I could make it out to your sale, looks like there are some really nice calves in it.
Thanks.

A follow up to my above thread:  When someone says they want a flush down the road:  Ask about their intentions: Would they like one or are they insisting on it?

An Example:  We purchased a heifer for my son last year from someone that was just getting started having his own sale.  I knew this was his favorite heifer and he hated to let her go, however as he stated
he wants people to know they are getting his best.  After having some success with her, I offered him the chance to share in a flush or two with her down the road.  He was willing to pay for the whole flush and give me
half the embryos.  Win/Win,  He gets to access his Genetics that he didn't want to let go,  I have embryos that I have no investment in.  Yes the heifer may calve a little later but if I can get several calves out of her it's a good deal for us.

RSC
 

Davis Shorthorns

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we had a similar situation last year, we bought a heifer from a guy private treaty and a few years down the road he told me that he thought that he had retained a flush.  I went back through and found out that he didn't, but to keep the relationship we made a deal, he will be able to flush her to a mutually agreed upon bull and we get the best heifer.  He was extremly happy about this deal and we kept a good relationship.
 

kanshow

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Very good points RSC - and for those reasons, I see no problem in retaining a flush.  I think the terms need to be made up front and the flush should be done at the buyer's convience. 

 

TPX

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Heres the thing it would meen that you lose a year of breeding if you have a strict 60 day calvinng season like us and also most people that do embryos like to leave to cow open for a year to let her rest for awhile. Second alot of cows dont produce near as good after they have been flushed. Third if the heifer means that much to you then keep a half interest or dont sell her at all and lastely some people seem to do it on just about every heifer calf that they sell so to me it just gets tired and to me it doesnt make a heifer look better then others.
 

Jill

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TPX said:
Heres the thing it would meen that you lose a year of breeding if you have a strict 60 day calvinng season like us and also most people that do embryos like to leave to cow open for a year to let her rest for awhile. Second alot of cows dont produce near as good after they have been flushed. Third if the heifer means that much to you then keep a half interest or dont sell her at all and lastely some people seem to do it on just about every heifer calf that they sell so to me it just gets tired and to me it doesnt make a heifer look better then others.
I disagree with most everything you have stated, it will set you back on breeding for the next year, we usually flush 2 or 3 times and then they are back on track for the following year.  I have never heard of anyone waiting a year to breed after flushing, we breed on the next standing heat and have never had any problems getting them bred back.  I'm not sure why you feel that they don't produce as well after being flushed, but there is just no truth in that statement.  I will buy a heifer with retained flush options, I will not buy a heifer you keep half interest in, I don't want a partner, but don't mind sharing a flush, we have purchased several heifers this way and have only had that right exercised once.  DNA clone rights to me are a very different issue, won't buy one that way!
 

Show Heifer

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Regardless if it is a heifer, ewe, car, land or a mouse, when I buy something I want 100% of it. I am not going to share. If I buy a heifer, and I work hard, promote her, breed her to a wonderful bull and she has a barn burner calf, it is ME who should profit, not the seller. Or even wait till I flush her, have several class winners, and THEN you want to "get the candy"? No thanks. If you think she is going to be the next great one, keep her and YOU do the work.
Same with a bull. If I do not get 100%, with NOTHING reserved, I am not interested. And no, I will NOT double my bid for full ownership.
 

Malinda

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I tend to stay out of discussions like this, but here goes.

I have already told you how the Wells' are known for being humble. (ha ha) I do not mean any of the following statements to be more than  statements to add to the information in the discussion. But, many of you will take it other ways....so have at it.

When I bought the cow in my avatar (CF DZ Fool 387 TP X ET) there were at least 6 times the terms of that purchase were misrepresented in advertising others were using in the Shorthorn Country. I called and complained twice to no avail; I just want them to get it right! DZ's picture appears many times each year in sale catalogs because someone is selling a sister or a fifth cousin twice removed. I do not let that  bother me because what I am really getting is free advertising for my cow.

Let me also clarify the term 'my cow'. I own DZ and all of her natural calves and half of all embryos produced. Cates Farms bred her and they retained half embryo interest. I have actually had people look me straight in the eye and tell me no, you only own half of the cow. I tell them to get out their 2004 People's Choice sale catalog from Denver. Cates retained half embryo interest.

Now, many people have told me how nuts I was for giving xxx dollars for DZ and only owning half the embryos. This old nut just laughs about that all the time. DZ is 5 years old, is bred for her third calf for next spring and she owes me nothing....she has paid for herself. How did that happen? I just sat back and let other people advertise my cow. We have all seen people give mega bucks for heifers, or seen heifers win national championships and they are never heard from again. There could be many reasons for that, but part of it is advetrising, exposure, getting her calves in the right hands, being able to get semen on bulls that is hard to get, etc.

If DZ spent all of her life here, few people would ever see her. As it has turned out, she has been at Cates' Farms on display at their production sale a couple times; she has gotten a whole lot more exposure because I was willing to share her embryos.

Cates Farms have sold two heifers out of DZ in their production sale. One sold for $45,000 and one sold for $10,000. Am I jealous, am I mad because my name is not Cates and I can't sell heifers for as much as they can? Heck no...I still own the cow that produced the $45,000 heifer and I did absolutely nothing to get that advertising.
The very first DZ ET heifer born here has done very well in the ring for Jake Boyert. John Sullivan told me recently that he thought Jake's heifer was going to win the Junior Nationals over his heifers. I took that as a nice compliment  for my cow and Jake Boyert.

About my half of the embryos....I have been able to get semen for those flushes that is hard to get, I have been able to have her flushed with sexed semen I did not pay for, etc., etc.

I guess when you buy a heifer that someone is retaining a flush on, your success will depend on the ability of that female to produce a calf as good or better than herself, the ability of the person retaining the flush to advertise and market the calves and get them in the right hands and your ability to do the same.

It might benefit you to talk to the seller about splitting 2 flushes as opposed to them getting all of one flush. That way you both get embryos AND you can use a different sire for each flush.

There are breeders that I would not want to retain a flush...I just stay home on that sale day. So, be cautious about who you are doing business with.


Oh yes, I do not like it when sellers have to retain a flush, semen, or DNA on EVERYTHING they sell. Are they afraid their genetics can never reproduce themselves? I really object to DNA rights, especially on bulls.

Again, please take this as me just adding statements to the discussion and no more.

Better go, I have to go run water for DZ...yep, she's home now.

Everyone have a good day,

Malinda

 

stick

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(clapping) <party> (clapping) <party> (clapping)
Well said Malinda
 

Doc

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  I agree 100%, Malinda!!! I don't know about up there , but down here that's called being a good business person.
 

justme

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Show Heifer said:
Regardless if it is a heifer, ewe, car, land or a mouse, when I buy something I want 100% of it. I am not going to share. If I buy a heifer, and I work hard, promote her, breed her to a wonderful bull and she has a barn burner calf, it is ME who should profit, not the seller. Or even wait till I flush her, have several class winners, and THEN you want to "get the candy"? No thanks. If you think she is going to be the next great one, keep her and YOU do the work.
Same with a bull. If I do not get 100%, with NOTHING reserved, I am not interested. And no, I will NOT double my bid for full ownership.
What about a bull where the owner just wants to retain 100 straws or so a year for in herd use?  Why would that be a problem?  Sometimes you have to let the good ones go to get the exposure you need, but you'd really like to try your bull on some of your own?  I see no problems with any of it if its all spelled out in black and white, and your comfortable with the person your doing it with.  Heck, if I buy a heifer off someone and they come back and would like a flush out of her...I'd consider it in a heartbeat.  Ecspecially if they treated us well, and want to work out a fair deal.
 
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