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Offline librarian

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May/June Shorthorn World page 12
« on: May 11, 2022, 07:02:36 PM »
A good article by Matt Woolfolk on the top ten Shorthorn sires by progeny and where are we going with this?
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: May/June Shorthorn World page 12
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2022, 04:44:54 PM »
Do you mean shorthorn country or?

I havent got may issue yet and its not online so idk

Offline Dale

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Re: May/June Shorthorn World page 12
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2022, 02:15:40 PM »
Matt's Shorthorn Country article is well worth reading and rereading!  Grandma Gleda used to say, "If you do not know where you are going, any road will take you."  Matt is asking Shorthorn breeders what direction we want to go, in general, as a breed.     

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: May/June Shorthorn World page 12
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2022, 09:06:31 PM »
Matt's Shorthorn Country article is well worth reading and rereading!  Grandma Gleda used to say, "If you do not know where you are going, any road will take you."  Matt is asking Shorthorn breeders what direction we want to go, in general, as a breed.  WELL PUT- It really looks in the latest several issues many of the show cattle producers and long time"cast real BWS and performance to the wind producers" (ONE AND THE SAME?) are jumping on the Jungels, Byland,
PVF. Loving , Studer, and others bandwagons. Is there NOW REALLY  an immediate band aid like Red Reward  WAS? With that quality, BWs structural integrity ?Along with  SHORTHORN FRONTS, Depth of rib YATTA YATTA? HATS OFF TO SULLIVAN FOR THAT WHOLE TRIBE A: LEGIT,  USEFUL ,AND NECESSARY VENTURE  INTO SHOW CATTLE THAT CAN ALSO BE FUNCTIONAL AND MODERATE THE HUGE GENERAL BW PROBLEM WITH A DIFFERENT " SOLUTION" ET AL. TOO BAD THEY didn't take off and sustain: the way I hoped they would. So the national champion 2021 and 2022 handmade bulls (for example) who will probably  NEVER work in the field and are the same CF Solution or variations that have been around FOR YEARS.  WITH the-sire stacked on top of similar members of various permutations of Hahns-Stienke  cattle  along with their beautiful (for the moment) myriad  full and half sibs from the same 25 year old gene pool. And I"m not talking Sullivan-he appears to have moved on. So are the " do no wrong" BIG MONEY (we pay the most for trade ins) breeders who for the last 18 at least years or more chased this kind of breeding. SO NOW LETS use a Byland Jungels  et al bull one time and all 20 years of those stacked genetics disappear.Wanna show em? I haven't SEEN ANY CATTLE FROM ANY OF THOSE BREEDERS YET -Unless they were those sires bred to show genetics..AS FAR AS THE WHOLE "OTHER SIDE"" WHY ALL OF THEM WERE 80 POUNDS AT BIRTH ANYWAY "-THATS WHY THE BULL CALVES ON CREEP AND SELF FEEDERS NORMALLY HAVE YEARLING WTS OF 1050 OR LESS IN SOME CASES AND 4.5 FRAME SCORES (in some cases) Those are some real candidates in that range for all the friends and neighbors looking to breed MINI CATTLE LOL Hot Commodity still maintains and is proven for many years-and they are STILL  very attractive cattle that do whats necessary Including GROW. Just hated to see Kevin Kimmerling disappear -He doesn't like me I could give a Sh@$%&*(T Great breeder O0

Offline beebe

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Re: May/June Shorthorn World page 12
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2022, 08:34:24 AM »
Matt's Shorthorn Country article is well worth reading and rereading!  Grandma Gleda used to say, "If you do not know where you are going, any road will take you."  Matt is asking Shorthorn breeders what direction we want to go, in general, as a breed.  WELL PUT- It really looks in the latest several issues many of the show cattle producers and long time"cast real BWS and performance to the wind producers" (ONE AND THE SAME?) are jumping on the Jungels, Byland,
PVF. Loving , Studer, and others bandwagons. Is there NOW REALLY  an immediate band aid like Red Reward  WAS? With that quality, BWs structural integrity ?Along with  SHORTHORN FRONTS, Depth of rib YATTA YATTA? HATS OFF TO SULLIVAN FOR THAT WHOLE TRIBE A: LEGIT,  USEFUL ,AND NECESSARY VENTURE  INTO SHOW CATTLE THAT CAN ALSO BE FUNCTIONAL AND MODERATE THE HUGE GENERAL BW PROBLEM WITH A DIFFERENT " SOLUTION" ET AL. TOO BAD THEY didn't take off and sustain: the way I hoped they would. So the national champion 2021 and 2022 handmade bulls (for example) who will probably  NEVER work in the field and are the same CF Solution or variations that have been around FOR YEARS.  WITH the-sire stacked on top of similar members of various permutations of Hahns-Stienke  cattle  along with their beautiful (for the moment) myriad  full and half sibs from the same 25 year old gene pool. And I"m not talking Sullivan-he appears to have moved on. So are the " do no wrong" BIG MONEY (we pay the most for trade ins) breeders who for the last 18 at least years or more chased this kind of breeding. SO NOW LETS use a Byland Jungels  et al bull one time and all 20 years of those stacked genetics disappear.Wanna show em? I haven't SEEN ANY CATTLE FROM ANY OF THOSE BREEDERS YET -Unless they were those sires bred to show genetics..AS FAR AS THE WHOLE "OTHER SIDE"" WHY ALL OF THEM WERE 80 POUNDS AT BIRTH ANYWAY "-THATS WHY THE BULL CALVES ON CREEP AND SELF FEEDERS NORMALLY HAVE YEARLING WTS OF 1050 OR LESS IN SOME CASES AND 4.5 FRAME SCORES (in some cases) Those are some real candidates in that range for all the friends and neighbors looking to breed MINI CATTLE LOL Hot Commodity still maintains and is proven for many years-and they are STILL  very attractive cattle that do whats necessary Including GROW. Just hated to see Kevin Kimmerling disappear -He doesn't like me I could give a Sh@$%&*(T Great breeder O0
Would you define or describe a Shorthorn front for me please?

Offline knabe

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Re: May/June Shorthorn World page 12
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2022, 01:58:59 PM »
when i was in college, shorthorns had briskets that had a huge amount of fat without fat further back.

not sure which line/s are responsible for that. maybe just a desired phenotype back in the day.

seems like it's hard to get rid of.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 02:00:14 PM by knabe »
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Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: May/June Shorthorn World page 12
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2022, 08:15:13 AM »
Would you define or describe a Shorthorn front for me please? The Knabe reply is pretty accurate as far as some fronts go. Do you mean similar to these? The cell phone actually distorts them a little and stretches them out.. They are also shorter necked than they appear in the pictures.

Offline Medium Rare

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Re: May/June Shorthorn World page 12
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2022, 11:08:17 AM »
I read it when it first came out, but was left with way more questions than answers and should probably read it again.

Angus is not a WHR organization. How does that affect this epd comparison? I believe Marc has Angus and Hereford as being in the top 4?? breeds for mature cow size. If we accept that, where should we as a breed actually want to be when it comes to comparing our epds considering how much frame has an affect on them? Black cows are being covered with colored bulls all over the country right now. I'm not ancient, but I can't remember a time when it was as popular as it is now. If you explore the reasons for this trend, I think you'll find some of the issues those cow men are trying to fix are a direct result of what it took to create the epds being compared here. Angus and Herefords obviously have larger populations, but those populations also have a commercial to show ratio that is very different from Shorthorns. Last I knew the average shorthorn herd was 6. A large percentage of those 6s are Jr herds. The shorthorn breed is considered one of the best breed environments for youth to develop within and it's really not even close, so I don't see this changing any time soon. The ASA has described how much those small herds mean to the financial side many times, so wishing them gone could have consequences unless commercial breeders expand their side of the ratio fairly significantly. If we look at all this data and then consider those ratios, I really don't know how to even compare these numbers. Or if we should.

On the other hand, there is a bull or two on this list I really wish wasn't there. If those calves hit a commercial feedlot they're going to get embarrassed. You're not getting near a 1,000lb carcass out of them without extra inputs, time, and a lot of luck. It's just not happening. Buyers will remember the roan calf in the pen and have no clue they're out of bull X, who just doesn't have the gas to compete.

Offline beebe

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Re: May/June Shorthorn World page 12
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2022, 10:05:19 PM »
Would you define or describe a Shorthorn front for me please? The Knabe reply is pretty accurate as far as some fronts go. Do you mean similar to these? The cell phone actually distorts them a little and stretches them out.. They are also shorter necked than they appear in the pictures.
In your response to Dale you referred to Shorthorn fronts and I wondered what a Shorthorn front was.  Back in the 70s I judged the North Dakota sale in Carrington.  My Grand Champion bull was a Weston Suprise 9th son that Ron Hofstrand brought.  He was a well balanced bull with a well developed year end.  My  reserve was a Wayne Clark bull that was bigger with not as much rear end but a bull that would have had a very large heart girth.  Now I am in the meat business and I do not care about shows and brisket sells higher than round I wonder how I would place those bulls today.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: May/June Shorthorn World page 12
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2022, 04:56:03 PM »
There are cattle that do both. After thirty years some of those breeders are finally getting their due.Thats why I wanted people to see the Martin herd. They have always been in the higher echelons of the breed: when they showed, and when they work. Judging from the pictures at a"lot of these sales FAT SELLS. THAT CERTAINLY INCLUDES THE COUPLE PICS I POSTED. The Martin cattle were pretty well in everyday conditions. And unless they are in conditions where they are not taken care of at all-That"s what they look like. O0

Offline beebe

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Re: May/June Shorthorn World page 12
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2022, 10:33:28 PM »
There are cattle that do both. After thirty years some of those breeders are finally getting their due.Thats why I wanted people to see the Martin herd. They have always been in the higher echelons of the breed: when they showed, and when they work. Judging from the pictures at a"lot of these sales FAT SELLS. THAT CERTAINLY INCLUDES THE COUPLE PICS I POSTED. The Martin cattle were pretty well in everyday conditions. And unles
Well I bought a club steer for my granddaughter to show at the local achievement days. I think it is a Man Among Boys son.  I think this will  be a new experience for me.

Offline knabe

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Re: May/June Shorthorn World page 12
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2022, 07:55:39 PM »
brisket sells higher than round I wonder how I would place those bulls today.


astute observation.  never understood the attention on the rear end either, but i don't know enough about how carcasses are pieced out for profit, i.e., more brisket less rear end and vice versa and how overall product breaks out. probably very easy to do a study, but getting that info is probably pretty hard and proprietary.
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Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: May/June Shorthorn World page 12
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2022, 09:58:53 PM »
ATTENTION to the rear end is what makes commercial and other type breeders even look at a Shorthorn from what I have seen. And that"s basic cattle, that somewhat resemble what they raise every day in type.Those commercials (given a modicum of quality) are usually thick stout animals that are not managed as ridgedly as purebreds. So at the fair are "show" or possibly the emerging   NEW DUAL PURPOSE purebred Shorthorns. What constitutes a member of this new clche?They can show, and they are also all around functional . And they are naturally thick. The fullblood maines had a lot to do with the beginnings of the thick Shorthorns and Hunsley recognized that.O0
« Last Edit: May 19, 2022, 10:03:04 AM by mark tenenbaum »

 

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