Schrag sale

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Doc

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blackdiamond said:
Doc said:
The What's Up calves in general I really liked. I bought 2 for people giving a little over $12,000 for one. I thought that 14b was an awesome female and I went to $15k on her. The calves had some really good bone to them and some muscle to them with plenty of top. I thought the 20 bull moved really well .

Not to continue to beat upon a dead horse, but the very traits you described, and the owner described, are the exact things that our calf excells at-- yet our biggest complaint of him, also ranks as your's of the more expensive bull. 

My question is, should I continue breeding with this bull, or will he be knocked off, and forgotten about as just another shorthorn bull who does one or two things really good, and the rest is so lacking it's not worth using him over.?

I don't see a lack of rib being a common problem of the Whats Up calves. The others in the sale seemed to be deep enough. I just didn't care for the 19 bull, but obviously the Inskeep family saw something that I didn't. They are more than likely a better judge of cattle than I am. I wouldn't have a problem with using W.U.
 

twc77

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  Aj, did Doc answer your Query? The sale results look like alot of other people think their cattle can help or improve their own herd.And 9/10 of the time thats usually a pretty good barometer of "how your herd is doing". I should have my tongue cut out for asking, but sarcastically speaking(im sure you can appreciate). im curious of how you would change it for the better?  is it  simply Heatwave's fault or did they use that b.h. obama bull a few generations back? Just curious, have a great weekend!
 

RyanChandler

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twc77 said:
   Aj, did Doc answer your Query? The sale results look like alot of other people think their cattle can help or improve their own herd.And 9/10 of the time thats usually a pretty good barometer of "how your herd is doing". I should have my tongue cut out for asking, but sarcastically speaking(im sure you can appreciate). im curious of how you would change it for the better?  is it  simply Heatwave's fault or did they use that b.h. obama bull a few generations back? Just curious, have a great weekend!

AJ likes pasture cattle, those sold in this sale clearly aren't that type.  And when I say pasture cattle, I mean those that are sustainable on pasture.

I would add volume and lots of it.  More rib, deeper chest floors, just more body capacity in general.  Lot 26 should be the standard.
 

aj

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I was just asking for docs expertise....dang.....and I wasn't even aware Scrags used heatwave.
 

oakview

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I have noticed that one of the "pasture cattle" people's heroes is Dunbeacon Venture, an Austrailian bull imported by, hmm, let me see, oh yes, the Schrags.  I couldn't help but notice that someone also mentioned him as one of the noted bulls ahead of his time.  I believe a blanket statement that Schrag's cattle won't work in certain conditions is unfair and probably not true.  Venture surely came from a "pasture cattle" environment in Australia.  In my opinion, the Revival cow is at least one of the top three Schrag cow families.  She's a Venture daughter, so she should be at least half good, right?  Schrags have been in business a long time and most of us wish we would have been half as successful as they have been.  Instead of trying to beat them down because you think they might have a big cow or their cattle can't eat grass, I would suggest trying to improve what you have so your herd can perhaps someday approach the level of success the Schrags have. 
 

trevorgreycattleco

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While there is no arguing the schrags are successful. That's a good thing. My comments are toward venture. He is in my herd bull's pedigree. Venture was used heavily in the sneed herd. This is what rob said. " that bullfor the most part just didn work. He only had one son he kept back and it wasn until he had a calf that was back to two generations away from venture before they could stay. I don know if this means venture is bad or good? My buddy bought the first bull calf out of the revival cow at a Ohio beef expo. He was a really good looking bull. He was just way to big for me. His daughters had great udders but they we're still to big for me.  I think his bull ended up being TH so he got shipped. I guess everybody has their own version of what pasture cattle mean to them. When I look at the catalog I see a well run operation that doesn't overlook things. The thing I liked the most was how involved the kids are. I sure appreciate that. The shorthorn breed could use 500 more ranches run like this with each ones own version of cattle.
 

Okotoks

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The size that works one place may not be what works in another environment. I attended a commercial bred heifer sale a couple of weeks ago. These heifers were weighing about 1150 ave. The smallest group ave. 1059 and the largest 1268. There were 420 heifers , half black and black baldy and the other half red and red baldy. The reds out averaged the blacks by over $100. All these heifers were pelvic measured, preg checked and went to ranchers that mostly ended up taking 50 plus heifers. I would guess they will mature at 1450 to 1500 lbs. 
 

oakview

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Thank you for reinforcing my "to each his own" cattle production philosophy.  I admit I get more than a little irritated when someone on here tries to belittle someone else's program.  If the Schrags are successful, good for them.  If you're successful with low input cattle, I'm happy for you.  Heck, I'm even glad for someone that enjoys success with miniature Herefords!
 

RyanChandler

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oakview said:
Thank you for reinforcing my "to each his own" cattle production philosophy.  I admit I get more than a little irritated when someone on here tries to belittle someone else's program.  If the Schrags are successful, good for them.  If you're successful with low input cattle, I'm happy for you.  Heck, I'm even glad for someone that enjoys success with miniature Herefords!

Why are you getting so defensive? Nothing but my opinion, which I would contend is fact, was said.  I been around cattle my entire life.  That being said, I've never encountered a bovine that had a body proportion of half body half leg, that could sustain themself on pasture alone of any kind.  That is just my experience and I will willingly share it with others.  I like their cattle, I think they're pretty.  I also think miniature herefords are pretty.  The difference is, miniature herefords are marketed as a novelty.

As far as your "each his own" comment.  I couldn't agree more!  I would just encourage you to apply that philosophy evenly in all aspects of life because, ultimately, everything comes down to a man's principles- this topic included.
 

blackdiamond

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oakview said:
I have noticed that one of the "pasture cattle" people's heroes is Dunbeacon Venture, an Austrailian bull imported by, hmm, let me see, oh yes, the Schrags.  I couldn't help but notice that someone also mentioned him as one of the noted bulls ahead of his time.  I believe a blanket statement that Schrag's cattle won't work in certain conditions is unfair and probably not true.  Venture surely came from a "pasture cattle" environment in Australia.  In my opinion, the Revival cow is at least one of the top three Schrag cow families.  She's a Venture daughter, so she should be at least half good, right?  Schrags have been in business a long time and most of us wish we would have been half as successful as they have been.  Instead of trying to beat them down because you think they might have a big cow or their cattle can't eat grass, I would suggest trying to improve what you have so your herd can perhaps someday approach the level of success the Schrags have. 

I can fairly confidentally say that I can speak the words of someone who, 20 yrs ago was as close to Schag's as anyone, and knew as much about their operation as anyone did.  he told me, that 20 years ago the SS cattle were middle of the road, the old man had the philosphy that you'll hit them on the way up, and back again on the way down.  As far as current time,s not a clue. 

You speak of the Revival cow-- go back to the originator, she wasn't a Venture, she was a purebred MAINE>! 
 

oakview

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According to the ASA website, SS Revival is sired by Venture and is owned by Schrags.  Her dam, as you correctly stated, was a purebred Maine owned by Mindale Farms.  My interpretation is that since the SS Revival cow is shown as being owned by the Schrags and her dam is shown as being owned by Mindale Farms, Schrag's originator of the line would be SS Revival, a daughter of Venture.  I did also refer to the fact that was half of the genetics.  I don't care if someone else interprets SS Revival's mother as the originator, though, that's up to you.  The only "defense" I will offer on the subject of cattle types people raise is their right to raise them to their preference.  I personally do not like to see people use this forum to denegrate someone else's cattle.  I really am happy for you if you enjoy miniature Herefords!
 

Doc

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blackdiamond said:
I can fairly confidentally say that I can speak the words of someone who, 20 yrs ago was as close to Schag's as anyone, and knew as much about their operation as anyone did.  he told me, that 20 years ago the SS cattle were middle of the road, the old man had the philosphy that you'll hit them on the way up, and back again on the way down.  As far as current time,s not a clue. 

You speak of the Revival cow-- go back to the originator, she wasn't a Venture, she was a purebred MAINE>! 

Correct me if I'm wrong Jody, but isn't "middle of the road " what you and some of the others on here preach? I mean if you can be as successful as the Schrags are with "middle of the road" cattle, why change a thing?
As far as the Revival cow goes, I would consider SS Revival as the "foundation". She is the one that has done so much for the breed and breeders, not the Maine cow. If you look at the progeny report on the two cows , you will see that SS Revival is the one that has 6 pages of registered calves not the purebred Maine cow.
 

aj

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I think you could make an arguement that 60% of the Shorthorn cattle are a zoo breed type deal. They are constantly on grain........they are always a embryo tranplant deal and enviromental pressure are never applied. The birth dates and birth weights are always lied about. Not all of them....maybe 60% of them. Heres a novel idea.....take them off the feed bucket and put them on forage. To me 60% ers cattle are kinda like raising alpacas or race horses.....and that is ok. But I think it would be cool to call a spade a spade.just initial testemony.
 

justintime

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aj said:
I think you could make an arguement that 60% of the Shorthorn cattle are a zoo breed type deal. They are constantly on grain........they are always a embryo tranplant deal and enviromental pressure are never applied. The birth dates and birth weights are always lied about. Not all of them....maybe 60% of them. Heres a novel idea.....take them off the feed bucket and put them on forage. To me 60% ers cattle are kinda like raising alpacas or race horses.....and that is ok. But I think it would be cool to call a spade a spade.just initial testemony.


I would like to know if your arguement that 60% of Shorthorn cattle are constantly on grain... and are always in embryo transplant and environmental pressure is never supplied, is based on facts that you have proof of, an calculated guess that you have made, or if it is something you just decided must be correct? I would like to say this is absolutely not even close to being true. I will agree that there are a few " hot house" deals in the Shorthorn breed, but I would argue that the Shorthorn herds raised this way are not more than any other breed. Here in Canada, I cannot think of a Shorthorn herd that does not live on roughages through the winter. I know of many reputation herds in several other breeds that are fed a grain based diet through the winter.

I have not seen all the Shorthorn herds in the US, but I would say I have seen a good number of herds over the years. I would say I have seen almost every major herd I have visited, roughaging on corn stocks far into the winter, in pretty deep snow and little shelter provided for them . Some of these herds are what are referred to as being the so called elite herds that some on here critcize constantly on here.

My cows can get thin when we get a bad winter, but I prefer that they don't get real thin.I prefer them to remain in excellent condition through even the coldest winters we can have. I think most people manage their herds in a similar way. We only raise hay and cows, so any supplemental grain is purchased. If my cows start to lose weight, I increase the amount of better quality hay they receive each day but they never get grain.
I winter my cows like many others do here in Canada. My cows graze as long as possible into the late fall or early winter, and we make them go out and graze if there is adequate grass when weather permits in the winter. The cows never get grain supplementation at all. They get a mixture of our poorest hay blended with some good quality hay  ( at about 2 bales poor quality to 1 bale of higehr quality) until they calve and they then get the better quality hay until they go to pasture in the spring. The yearling heifers and first calf heifers are fed some 14% pellets and good quality hay for the winter, so they will continue to grow. They get 3-4 lbs/ day of pellets and free choice hay and oat straw ( when available). The get an extra 2 lbs of pellets per day when the day time high does not reach - 20 C. We have very little shelter in our pastures and we make our cows walk as much as possible when weather permits. I am only saying this, because I beleive many  Shorthorn herds are raised the same way. I drive by many big name Angus, Charolais and Simmental herds every few weeks and I see the piles of corn  and barley silage that they are feeding to their cow herds.

When it comes right down to it, I believe each herd owner has to decide what feeding system makes the best economic sense to their situation. One of the most famous Angus herds I know of in Western Canada supplements their cows with grain every day of the year. They have told me that every day is  a show day to them, as they get visitors to see their cattle every month of the year. They say they have never had a person drive out of their yard without buying their cattle because they were in too good condition, but they know of lots of other herds where potential buyers drive out without buying because the cattle were too thin. I cannot criticize them for what they do, as they are some of the best marketers I know of. They sell lots and lots of bulls to commerical herds, and some of the best commercial herds in Western Canada. They also sell embryos and semen around the world. In regards to herds using ET, how can you criticize anyone who wants to improve their herds at a faster rate or increase their marketings on a more international basis? Don't most of us raise cattle to try to make a living? Is it not a business to most of us? Yes there are lots of people buying high dollar show heifers that don't care if their cattle make money, but when you count up the percentage of cattle these people own in comparison to the total of any breed, they are really pretty insignificant. I use ET because it is a way I can market more genetics around the world with little extra labor requirement. It has become a huge part of my business, and believe me, my cattle are a business and I feel blessed to be able to make a living doing the only job I ever wanted to do.  Semen and embryos have become the main source of genetics for the world, and while it is not for everyone, it does help me pay my bills.

I do not raise my cows the way these people ( and many others!) do, but I can hardly criticize them when they are having success and their commerical bull buyers are having excellent success as well. It is pretty easy to criticize others who are more successful than you are.  
 
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