Schrag sale

aj said:

So let me get this right. It is ok for calves to weigh 92-120 pounds at birth? We need to educate the dumb commercial guys.....the ones who are three generations deep in a ranch?

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There is no right answer. That is to each their own. The important thing is to report the calves weight properly so consumers know what they are getting. No educating needed AJ. 

aj said:

So let me get this right. It is ok for calves to weigh 92-120 pounds at birth? We need to educate the dumb commercial guys.....the ones who are three generations deep in a ranch?

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We seem to have this BW discussion every few months. As I said in my earlier post, I don't see very much difference between Shorthorn BWs and BWs of other breeds that have been born on this farm anyway. We have had purebred herds of Charolais, Simmental, Hereford, Angus and Maines, and smaller sets of a few other breeds, and we have only seen marginal differences in BWs between the breeds when they are raised together in the same management system. We are selling most of our bulls into commercial herds for many years now. In the past 3 years, we have managed to get some sold to some larger commercial operations.( 800-1200 cows).  I sold 6 bulls to one rancher in 2011, and the first thing he did when he walked into the bull pen was he asked if we could sort out the bulls with BWs of 85 lbs or less. We sorted the  pen and he then picked his 6 bulls with the BWs over 85 lbs. His reasoning was that he feels he loses too much performance and weaning weight when he uses bulls with smaller BWs. He was buying bulls that day to use on mature cows, and he said his cows were capable of calving 110-115 lb calves from the other breeds he was using and he had very few problems. I tend to agree with this man, in regards to the loss of performance from using low BW bulls. I have mentioned this point several times in the past, that being, that in 5 complete years of performance testing our Sun Country bulls ( from 5 herds) we have never had a bull in the bottom 50% of BWS, index over 100 ( average of the pen) for performance.Not even one! 

Every bull in my bull pen right now, was born unassisted, and the heaviest BW was 105 lbs. I have several low BW bulls in this pen, and while I think they are a very good bunch of bulls, they appear to be following the same trend we have  seen in the past. These bulls will be great bulls to use on heifers, but after 2  weigh periods, none of the low BW bulls ( 70-85 lbs ) are gaining as good as the bulls with BWs of 86-105 lbs. This is just what we have been seeing. I am really beginning to think thatanyone who thinks the average commercial cow cannot calve a 100 lb calf, probably doesn't weigh their calves .  In the 12 years since I started banding bull calves born over 110 lbs, I have not  had a single complaint about calving issues from a buyer. There was no magic about picking the 110 lb BW, I just decided I had to make a mandatory place to start and adjust accordingly, but I have not had any reason to drop it yet.

I am also convinced ( and there is lots of scientific data to back it up) that you will reduce pelvic area in females by using a few generations of low BW sires. If there is anything that may cause a major wreck in commercial cow herd in the future, it may well be too many low BW bulls being used. Herds that insist on using very low BW sires for a few generations may end up with cowherds that have problems calving a Longhorn or Jersey. This is an area where some common sense is required. IMO, the key is based in the word.. OPTIMUM. We should be promoting the use of Optimum BW bulls .. not the ones with the biggest or smallest BWs. 

We have used sires from a wide range of bloodlines in our herd over the past decade and we have not been plagued with huge BWs or calving issues. I have not had a vet assisted birth in the past 3 calf crops, and the last one I had was a backwards calf in a heifer that I could not get to come up into the birth canal. I only assisted 1 birth in the 2012 caf crop, which included 28 first calf heifers. One heifer had an upside down, backwards, breach calf and of course, I had to assist it to be born, and it was 86 lbs at birth. So if the BW issue is such a huge deal in the Shorthorn breed, why am I not seeing it, like you say so many others are?? I will agree there are some BWs that are too big in the breed, but this is also happening in lots of other breeds.

To produce the ideal herd of commercially acceptable shorthorns, what will your measure of success be?  Specifically?  What's the combination of metrics and upper/lower control limits you will target, and then market as a consistent, high quality alternative to what's already being successfully marketed?  This question isn't for JIT as much because he's outlined some specifics, measures bw's, performance tests bulls, etc.  It's not even for AJ as much because he mentions some metric theories like "stay ability".  Curious what's else is missing.  I'm not a show ring guy at all, or some sort of sympathizer, but I scratch my head when I see pictures of what the ideal shorthorn "looks like", or the non-conformist ideal bull...it seems to  fall into the category of show ring beauty contest but on the opposite end of the spectrum.  The success of our actions should be contingent on quantifiable results.  Obviously profit is number one, but what are the levers that get you there?

Lbs of calf per acre. Costs of time on feed. Longevity of the cow herd. Carcass quality. Masculine bulls. Line breeding.  Ruthless culling. Following your own path.

trevorgreycattleco said:

Lbs of calf per acre. Costs of time on feed. Longevity of the cow herd. Carcass quality. Masculine bulls. Line breeding.  Ruthless culling. Following your own path.

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I don't disagree.  I just wish these metrics existed (backed by decent sample sizes) and had targets to give frame of reference.  Typically, I've seen them exist within herds, but not really mentioned on a larger scale.

in my eyes:

predictability, practicality, and large groups with uniformity.

the outliers don't fit anywhere, but in the show ring and sale barn.

what makes a good acceptable cow here that's measurable?  calving interval, weaning weight, dollars of calf at weaning,

I'm not much of a believer in ET work, but if I was to pick one cow to flush, it would be my bag of bones, foundered as a calf cow that I took the vet last week for an absess in a front foot.  Why?  She's the only direct dtr of the very best cow to walk this place, and she's a hell of a producer.  She weans the best calf every year, but sure looks like hell doing it.

Lets throw this out there. Someone buys their daughter Lucy jane a 20,000$. She was bought over the phone. She was never pelvic measured. So it comes time for this heifer to become a cow. It turns out she has a small pelvic area and can't have a calf naturally. At this point the commercial producer would dump the cow. However.......since she's a 20,000$ heifer the owner......trys and recap some revenue.....so he hangs on to the damn female and ets her and spreads these genetics around 5 consignment sales and 4 states. Commercial people cull harder than alot of seedstock producers just beacause of the economic dynamics of the situation. Thats why I think an operation that weans a set of heifer calves......puts a little enviromental pressure on them through a non fancy ration.....pelvics and reproductive score them....dump off the outliers and thenstart to worry about the next great one. Not who the mamma was....or some grand dam......or if mamma's first cousin was a national champ. Its backward for the commercial guy to cull more ruthlessly than the so called "registered breeder". jmo

In order to produce a herd of commercially acceptable Shorthorns, I believe there has to me some measurable traits and some unmeasurable ones as well:

- Calving ease with acceptable performance. Notice I did not specifically say birth weights. Calving ease does not necessarily mean low BW.

- uniformity. A uniform herd of cows will impress most anyone

- fleshing ability. No one likes to see a bunch of thin cows, even if they have good calves on them. You can have well fleshed cows that have the ability to raise a growthy well fleshed calf.

- ability to live on roughages or at least high roughage rations. Many herds are moving to more months of grazing even here in the frozen North.

- moderate frame, natural thickness and depth of body ( go hand in hand with fleshing ability)

- good udders.

- eye appeal... important for both show cattle and a commercial herd. Cattlemen of all sectors of the industry like to look at cattle that are pleasing to the eye.

Impressive herd sires that are masculine and true stud horses. I am a big believer in the most feminine fertile females come from the most masculine sires. When anyone sees a great herd sire walking in a herd, and see some daughters working in the herd, or a set of calves of him, they are usually impressed.

Instead of seed stock breeders trying to impress a customer through visual appraisals hat can be achieved many ways,  how about real numbers formed over generations that turn a profit in a commercial setting. The best herd of true angus cows walking is Shoshone. They would finish dead last in a show everytime. Yet every major sale consultant and angus exec has reached out to Mr Leonhart. Why? He no longer registers his cattle. And the breed would do anything to get him to. He has literally thrown a fortune away. Like wise Keeney Angus in Kentucky. Yet producers flock to them. You won't find a 5k bull or cow. They are all priced relatively the same. They refuse to play the game. Yet year after year the calves they sell are in demand. They make money. For a long time. If a big time show guy showed up with a string it would suddenly be hip.

Instead of trying to impress everyone else, try impressing yourself and hope folks agree. I think every breeder should do there own thing. Push your cows. It's dec 12. I still haven't fed hay. Granted I only have a small herd now of 12 head but still. It's a start. I quit feeding hay mid march last year. Calves look good. Cows to. Fat almost. My heavy fronted bull is even looking good after a terrible bout with pink eye. My point is, the cream rises faster to the top when emotions are out the window and the herd is forced to survive on their own with minimal assistance from you. Just my thoughts on a sleepless night.

I am also convinced ( and there is lots of scientific data to back it up) that you will reduce pelvic area in females by using a few generations of low BW sires. If there is anything that may cause a major wreck in commercial cow herd in the future, it may well be too many low BW bulls being used. Herds that insist on using very low BW sires for a few generations may end up with cowherds that have problems calving a Longhorn or Jersey. This is an area where some common sense is required. IMO, the key is based in the word.. OPTIMUM. We should be promoting the use of Optimum BW bulls .. not the ones with the biggest or smallest BWs.

This has all ways been my question. Why do bigger frame bulls daughters have bad CE's and calving ease bulls daughters good or better CE's when most likley the daughter will have smaller hips? Does not add up to me.   

Once the 120 # birth weight is in the pedigree it seems like it will be there to haunt you for a while. It may skip a generation but it will pop up again. Its hard to breed that out once its in there. You may get by and you might not get by. I had a bull that threw some big calves........and his daughters threw huge calves....no matter what they were bred to. I even used a lowline cross bull on them once as heifers and had a hell of time.

It's interesting how a successful program like Schrag's can be used to get back to the endless lectures about what is wrong with Shorthorn breeders! I doubt Schrag's would want to take the advise of these naysayers in order to try to make their program more successful. A breeder needs to know their local market and  the market they want to sell into. I for one will not go out and select a bull based on someone's single trait selection advise, a birth weight under 90 lbs or a cow weight of 1000 lbs.

Okotoks said:

It's interesting how a successful program like Schrag's can be used to get back to the endless lectures about what is wrong with Shorthorn breeders! I doubt Schrag's would want to take the advise of these naysayers in order to try to make their program more successful. A breeder needs to know their local market and  the market they want to sell into. I for one will not go out and select a bull based on someone's single trait selection advise, a birth weight under 90 lbs or a cow weight of 1000 lbs.

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Calm down. This is not the first thread to get HIJACKED. No one is offering them advise or suggestions but I would be more than happy to take some. 

Okytoaks.....in general.....how big are your cows.......1700#?

aj said:

Okytoaks.....in general.....how big are your cows.......1700#?

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Sorry to disappoint you JA but probably in the 1450 lb to 1500 lb range. Shipped 3 of the bigger girls yesterday and they averaged 1567 lbs. I have a couple of bigger cows that weigh 1850 to 1950 lbs but they are easy doing cows that raise good calves. Flushing one of those for Scotland and they didn't want anything smaller for their market.

Have u ever considered replacing the cow herd with goats, AJ? Can not help but to wonder about that from time ta time, HaHa

Okotoks said:

It's interesting how a successful program like Schrag's can be used to get back to the endless lectures about what is wrong with Shorthorn breeders! I doubt Schrag's would want to take the advise of these naysayers in order to try to make their program more successful. A breeder needs to know their local market and  the market they want to sell into. I for one will not go out and select a bull based on someone's single trait selection advise, a birth weight under 90 lbs or a cow weight of 1000 lbs.

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Are you talking success in monetary terms or in terms of actually contributing to the beef industry?  I used to make a lot of cash in a pretty lucrative distribution business.  While the money was flowing, I wouldn't have exactly considered myself "successful." 

-XBAR- said:

Okotoks said:

It's interesting how a successful program like Schrag's can be used to get back to the endless lectures about what is wrong with Shorthorn breeders! I doubt Schrag's would want to take the advise of these naysayers in order to try to make their program more successful. A breeder needs to know their local market and  the market they want to sell into. I for one will not go out and select a bull based on someone's single trait selection advise, a birth weight under 90 lbs or a cow weight of 1000 lbs.

Click to expand...

Are you talking success in monetary terms or in terms of actually contributing to the beef industry?  I used to make a lot of cash in a pretty lucrative distribution business.  While the money was flowing, I wouldn't have exactly considered myself "successful." 

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So what in your mind makes one successful?

-XBAR- said:

Okotoks said:

It's interesting how a successful program like Schrag's can be used to get back to the endless lectures about what is wrong with Shorthorn breeders! I doubt Schrag's would want to take the advise of these naysayers in order to try to make their program more successful. A breeder needs to know their local market and  the market they want to sell into. I for one will not go out and select a bull based on someone's single trait selection advise, a birth weight under 90 lbs or a cow weight of 1000 lbs.

Click to expand...

Are you talking success in monetary terms or in terms of actually contributing to the beef industry?  I used to make a lot of cash in a pretty lucrative distribution business.  While the money was flowing, I wouldn't have exactly considered myself "successful." 

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I think Schrags have done both very well. Their cattle have definitely contributed to the Shorthorn breed and I would think they have had monetary success or they wouldn't have stayed in the game as long as they have. Of course I'm not their CPA , so I wouldn't know for sure. I know that I consider them one of the top herds in the breed.
As far as your business goes I don't know what kind of goals you set for yourself and your business , so I guess you would be a better judge of that.

Doc said:

-XBAR- said:

Okotoks said:

It's interesting how a successful program like Schrag's can be used to get back to the endless lectures about what is wrong with Shorthorn breeders! I doubt Schrag's would want to take the advise of these naysayers in order to try to make their program more successful. A breeder needs to know their local market and  the market they want to sell into. I for one will not go out and select a bull based on someone's single trait selection advise, a birth weight under 90 lbs or a cow weight of 1000 lbs.

Click to expand...

Are you talking success in monetary terms or in terms of actually contributing to the beef industry?  I used to make a lot of cash in a pretty lucrative distribution business.  While the money was flowing, I wouldn't have exactly considered myself "successful." 

Click to expand...

I think Schrags have done both very well. Their cattle have definitely contributed to the Shorthorn breed and I would think they have had monetary success or they wouldn't have stayed in the game as long as they have. Of course I'm not their CPA , so I wouldn't know for sure. I know that I consider them one of the top herds in the breed.
As far as your business goes I don't know what kind of goals you set for yourself and your business , so I guess you would be a better judge of that.

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this thread moved from schrags about 4 pages ago.. like every shorthorn topic does.