Shorthorn weaning weights.

OK 3 EAGLES-want to see what heavy Waukaru breeding X some Canadian looks like? Go to the last page of "my new herd sire" and see the picture OKOTOKS posted of a Crooked Post Shorthorns 1st calf hiefer and her calf. THINK SHE WAS SIRED BY A COWMAKER? O0

librarian said:

Those quasi-Australian bulls I like from that sale catalog were all Crooked Post on the bottom side.
I also liked this like guy a lot. Maybe someone can explain why to me? I just see something in a picture and have to work my way backwards to understand why I liked it.

Click to expand...

Here's 22B's dam.  One of the better SH cows I've seen.

If you are interested in a full pedigree for Lazy H J Classic  12C,  go to the Canadian Livestock Records website and you can see a full 5 generation pedigree on this bull.  I don't know why ASA can't get that right!?

I have been told that bison........in a blizzard.......will stand facing the wind........where as cattle will put their rump to the wind.

aj said:

I have been told that bison........in a blizzard.......will stand facing the wind........where as cattle will put their rump to the wind.

Click to expand...

This is true.

Any theories on why the buffalo/cattle blizzard arrangement?  During the April, 1973 blizzard we had in Iowa, our cows rode out the storm in a circle, obviously seen the day after.  The blizzard the better part of 2 days.  All 5 calves were curled up in a ball around the outside of the circle.  When we approached the vacant circle, with the exception of the 5 white lumps around the outside, we were certain the calves were dead.  All 5 got up and ran, though, as we got close.  Perhaps the bison wedge shape diverts the wind from most of their body to help keep them warmer.  I've been told turkeys (domesticated) lift their heads during rain to see what's hitting them.....and drown.  So much for survival of the fittest. 

I think there is something to the correlation between usefulness and body shape.  Couple of things though, animals, especially bulls, will look a lot different as they get older and mature.  The secondary sexual characteristics should start to exaggerate.  Necks are supposed to get thick and crested.  Chests should get deeper and shoulders are supposed to get bolder. 

IMO there is nothing ideal about one of the bulls posted as "ideal wedge shaped".  It does prove though that single trait selection can be a dangerous path.  If we were to all breed to ideal wedge shaped bull...

I agree...I noticed a long time ago that the old Milking Shorthorn bulls were more pronounced in sexual characteristics than the pudgy beef bulls... because they were selected to produce females of extreme fertility.
When a dual purpose bull is put onto beef selected cows that have lost their femininity, the wedge returns...milk returns...weaning weights go up...fertility increases. I think this is the lesson Defender taught the breeders who used him to dig themselves out of a Scotch hole.
Whitehall Sultan was not a tough guy, but think of what he did.

Back to 3E and those Crooked Post Cows. I think this one compares well with them. That mark is a Y Lazy Y brand...XBAR, you own a full sister.

librarian said:

My intuition on males is notoriously poor.

Click to expand...

I don't see anything wrong with that bull calf at all. I would stick with your gut on calves like these. I'm not too sure on the need for a long hip and how that plays into things. I know there are old cowman theories and such but my thought is that a long hip equals a large cow and doesn't necessarily effect calving ease. This bull calf looks like an easy keeping, moderate framed, well balanced, phenotypically correct calf with a decent head and shoulder shape too him. He maintains at the heart and all the way back to his hip with a good flex in his pasterns and set to his back legs.

Welll...I'll stick with a long hip.  I, also, don't really see why the way 12C looks is so unpopular. Not that it matters.
Thanks to Idalee, I found the rest of 12C's pedigree. http://www.clrc.ca/cgi-bin/extended_pedigree.cgi?_breedcode=MS&_countrycode=CAN&_regnumberprefix=M&_regnumber=478540&_regnumbersuffix=&_association=21

Hard to think of anything "classic" that's not mixed in there if you keep going back- so I'd guess he's kind of a loose electron that will bind to like elements in whatever he's bred to - good or bad.
Maybe there is consistency in the pedigree that I can't understand. To criticize my own choice- my guess had been he was one of those calves that look puny then metamorphose, but, to me, looks are only useful if they are prepotent.

Length and width of hip combined play a significant role in maternal calving ease.  Short hipped bulls have short hipped daughters with reduced pelvic capacity. To paraphrase Gearld Fry: rump length sets the standard for femininity. The wider and deeper the rump and flank, the higher the level of reproductive efficiency. 

I am not going to argue the attributes of wedge shape versus non-wedge shape, bulls big front compared to smaller rear, females smaller front compared to larger rear.  My only question is this:  If the Holstein bull pictured earlier is the ideal wedge shaped bull for some of you, how on earth will he sire females with the opposite dimensions?  Every dairy judge I've seen wants a tall fronted, deep barreled cow with little in the rear except udder.  That's why the bull looks the way he does.  That's why dairy cows are pictured standing on a riser.  I don't see how beef bulls that look similar to this Holstein, though perhaps not to the extreme, can be expected to sire females totally opposite to them in appearance. 

-XBAR- said:

Length and width of hip combined play a significant role in maternal calving ease.  Short hipped bulls have short hipped daughters with reduced pelvic capacity. To paraphrase Gearld Fry: rump length sets the standard for femininity. The wider and deeper the rump and flank, the higher the level of reproductive efficiency.

Click to expand...

I won't dispute this claim by Gerald Fry but maybe talking about short and long hipped compared to wide and deep hipped are two different things? I can definitely see how a hip structure with adequate width and depth would allow for better reproductive efficiency. I think that makes good logical sense. I'm not sure how length of hip from front to back correlates into that. I believe a lot of people are selecting cattle based on length of hip as one of their top priorities and I find that interesting. I believe selecting for a long hip from back to front, not necessarily wide or deep, but long, will result in larger framed and heavier mature weight cattle. This is just a theory or thought of mine at this point.

Definitely poor practice to prioritize length over depth or width.  The last thing you want to do is create a female with a long, tall(er than wide), and narrow pelvis. This is the primary culprit with many harder calving showier bred cattle.  Exceptional length and depth to the pelvis but very narrow in relation. A tailhead that sets up above the top line is a good indicator of this poor design. I think it's important to remember we re talking about a 3 dimensional shape where depth length and width are all equally important.  According to Fry, length from hook to pin should be real close to 25% of the animal's total top line length. 

I've been going by 1/3 of the length from shoulders to pins and still using the crop tool on my camera to get quick proportions. Usually, finding the pins is too subjective on a photo, though.
I screwed up the lines on the bison- but you get the idea.

The length from shoulders to pins (middle and rear 1/3rds combined) is called the 'body length' and should account for 2/3 of the animal's total top line (pole to pin).  The length from hooks to pins should be between 38% and 40% of the body length or roughly 27% of the animal's total length from pole to pin. 

Oh, thanks, I didn't understand correctly.
To JTM's theory- Lowlines and Galloways typically have a long hip and neither are large breeds. In my own experience, it translates proportionately as frame size moderates. This cow came down in size from her dam, but gained hip from her sire. A low frame 4 at most from a frame 5 dam.

I was wondering if Gerald would come up in this discussion.  I use his linear measuring methods as well as Dr. Allen williams ultrasound that can measure tenderness.  Very useful tools for what I do.

librarian said:

Oh, thanks, I didn't understand correctly.
To JTM's theory- Lowlines and Galloways typically have a long hip and neither are large breeds. In my own experience, it translates proportionately as frame size moderates. This cow came down in size from her dam, but gained hip from her sire. A low frame 4 at most from a frame 5 dam.

Click to expand...

Librarian, it could be my lack of experience with those breeds but my experience with Maine Anjou (old traditional) is where I got this idea from. A lot of the traditional red and white and larger framed Maines have longer and very large hip structures but it doesn't necessarily correlate with calving ease.

Back on the triangular shape talk about the opinion of how the opposite wedge should appear on the females. I am personally not seeing the opposite wedge on the Dover influenced females. These females are keeping the same wedge shape as the sire for the most part. So I don't know that I'm going to buy into that whole theory given that I've experienced how good these genetics perform in essential traits. The pic below is Renegade's granddam DRC 244MU which is also A&T Captain Obvious' dam.