In my opinion, Waukaru would be your choice if you wanted the most pasture to plate documentation available in the Shorthorn breed. Wasn't there some discussion about the bulls they supplied to King Ranch for new Shorthorn blood in their herd? It seems as if I recall that from a year or two ago.
Shorthorn
- Thread starter RyanChandler
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I'm sampling a number of Shorthorn sires in my commercial operation - breeding them to high-percentage Angus cows, bred up from a Simmental/SimAngus base. Have been selecting Angus sires for a number of traits over the past 10 years, but particularly concentrating on 'carcass' - marbling/ribeye and tenderness (all Angus AI sires used in the past 5 years have had 5 or 6 of the GeneStar tenderness markers).
Will be using SH sires, sometime in the next year or two, on some pb Simmental females.
Not seeing much info from the Shorthorn breeders on genetic markers for tenderness, marbling, etc. - but Waukaru Coppertop 464 is becoming my main SH sire - top 1% for WW - plenty of growth, top 3% for $BMI - so his daughters oughta be good, and he's got, if I recall correctly, 4 of the 6 gene markers for tenderness and 3 of the 6 gene markers for marbling - so steers ought make for a good eating experience, and daughters should pass good carcass traits on to their terminal offspring.
Certainly would be interested in using Patent, if he's available for commercial use.
Farm manager(wife)'s principal emphasis is on WW; but I'm in charge of sire selection, and I take a more balanced approach - even though I'm primarily breeding mature cows to SH sires, I still want good CED/BW; need to be above breed average for WW & MCE; and, I'm looking hard at $BMI since I'm primarily using the SH sires to make SHxAN COWS that will be bred to black Simmental sires to produce terminal feeder calves.
Have used RS 034, Captain Obvious, Waukaru Goldmine, Waukaru Coppertop, Waukaru Gold Card, and will be using the Dover(DRC 101VM) bull some this coming season. Would be interested in seeing more scan and genetic testing info on Shorthorn sires - Sue's been good about sending me some scan data from time to time, but some of that info is not as readily available to commercial producers as it is for the readily available Angus sires.
Will be using SH sires, sometime in the next year or two, on some pb Simmental females.
Not seeing much info from the Shorthorn breeders on genetic markers for tenderness, marbling, etc. - but Waukaru Coppertop 464 is becoming my main SH sire - top 1% for WW - plenty of growth, top 3% for $BMI - so his daughters oughta be good, and he's got, if I recall correctly, 4 of the 6 gene markers for tenderness and 3 of the 6 gene markers for marbling - so steers ought make for a good eating experience, and daughters should pass good carcass traits on to their terminal offspring.
Certainly would be interested in using Patent, if he's available for commercial use.
Farm manager(wife)'s principal emphasis is on WW; but I'm in charge of sire selection, and I take a more balanced approach - even though I'm primarily breeding mature cows to SH sires, I still want good CED/BW; need to be above breed average for WW & MCE; and, I'm looking hard at $BMI since I'm primarily using the SH sires to make SHxAN COWS that will be bred to black Simmental sires to produce terminal feeder calves.
Have used RS 034, Captain Obvious, Waukaru Goldmine, Waukaru Coppertop, Waukaru Gold Card, and will be using the Dover(DRC 101VM) bull some this coming season. Would be interested in seeing more scan and genetic testing info on Shorthorn sires - Sue's been good about sending me some scan data from time to time, but some of that info is not as readily available to commercial producers as it is for the readily available Angus sires.
Okotoks
Well-known member
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I have mentioned Belmore Jackaroo Z109 before and gave his Australian stats where he is a trait leader for Eye muscle area, carcass weight, retail beef yield and milk. Now he is included in the 2013 American sire summary and he is a trait leader for WW, YW, TOTM, $F and $BMI. Crooked Post has used him quite a bit and I know they have sons and grandsons available.
aj
Well-known member
If we could get a Shorthorn bull used by a National semen company....ABS or whoever......he would have to be marketed as a heifer bull and a maternal deal.....this would be a foot in the door.
jaimiediamond
Well-known member
I have been given the opportunity to work in a large well respected commercial program which uses Shorthorn bulls. His cow herd is Shorthorn, Simmental, and Angus crossed.
The Shorthorn sires he has been using have come from a number of operations, but are consistent in phenotype. They are siring cattle that are retained, the steers are fed out, and the females are put back in the herd. Shorthorns are doing very well in this program, and were even used on heifers this past season. The calves are coming easily, have vigor, and they grow.
Another large program has been crossing Shorthorns on Charolais this cattleman has a large number of inquiries on heifers which he has sold out of consistently. These Shorthorn bulls are surviving in a very tough country. Ironically when he tried Red Angus 3 out of 4 didn't finish the season.
The Shorthorn sires he has been using have come from a number of operations, but are consistent in phenotype. They are siring cattle that are retained, the steers are fed out, and the females are put back in the herd. Shorthorns are doing very well in this program, and were even used on heifers this past season. The calves are coming easily, have vigor, and they grow.
Another large program has been crossing Shorthorns on Charolais this cattleman has a large number of inquiries on heifers which he has sold out of consistently. These Shorthorn bulls are surviving in a very tough country. Ironically when he tried Red Angus 3 out of 4 didn't finish the season.
mark tenenbaum
Well-known member
aj said:
jaimiediamond said:
Jamie, this sounds like a great opportunity for the seed stock producers to collect data on their bulls in this program and promote that data to grow their market, create demand, and increase their profit. Is that happening? Otherwise it's nice anecdotally, but doesn't answer the million dollar question at hand. sure, they used Shorthorns, but as we all know Shorthorns arent all created equal. And quite frankly, if I were the commercial producer that you are working for I'd be thrilled that I struck gold and was the only one who knew. (It keeps my costs down)
GM
sjcattleco
Well-known member
If I was to ratain ownership and feed out purebred shorthorn steers and I owned 100 cows like 90% of what everyone else owns I would make sure that the bull I picked to sire my calves would lower frame score and increase muscle mass and thickness. Live wt at slaughter would be 1100lbs or less and have have REA consistantly at 13 sq in.
But if commercial calves were my goal I would breed those shorthorn cows to Pharo Cattle Co Red Angus bulls... I know they would get the job done!
But if commercial calves were my goal I would breed those shorthorn cows to Pharo Cattle Co Red Angus bulls... I know they would get the job done!
J
JTM
Guest
That's a really hard question to answer. I'm not sure what you mean by "profit". When I think of profit on a cow/calf program I think of all of the survivability traits and then growth. Awesome growing calves are one thing but you need to have at least 95 of those calves alive, healthy, and growing well. I would look to a program that is consistent in producing cattle that have the profit type traits. Especially in Shorthorn, you really can't trust a lot of the numbers but just get an idea. In my mind, it's the programs that really make their cattle work that can prove what performance really is.
jaimiediamond
Well-known member
GM said:
It is a great opportunity for us as seedstock producers in many ways but unfortunately as its a large operation which turns out more than 3 bulls at a time it is very difficult for a single breeder to collect data. Although it is great information for the breed, unfortunately not necessarily for the breeders of the bulls themselves. With this said we as a breed, and as seedstock producers really do need to find a way to collect data more efficiently. Hopefully the BIXS program will help with that http://bixs.cattle.ca/bixs-for-cow-calf-operations
RyanChandler
Well-known member
JTM said:
I mean if you got to pick the bull to put over 100 cows and your goal was to profit the most on grid premium, what shorthorn bull would it be? How efficient this bulls genetics are on grass is a non factor as none of the calves will be retained.
J
JTM
Guest
I don't know which specific bull would be the best but I do know that studies have shown that Shorthorn sired calves will give you a lot more choice carcasses compared to most any breed. Therefore, there should be plenty of them out there that can give you the carcass data necessary for the most bang for your buck. Unfortunately, the breed has not collected enough data and has not been driven in the direction of doing this enough to get clear answers. There is a handfull of Shorthorn breeders that do ultrasound testing. I would start there and compare data to get what you are looking for. Then hope you got what you were looking for...-XBAR- said:
trevorgreycattleco
Well-known member
What kind of cows are the 100? English? Continental or just basic commercial cows. I'd use a bull like the RS Max bull for feedlot calves. The bull Shady Maple has Navigator works good in feedlot deals. Maybe try the old K Kim revamp bull.
I still think Complete can run with any of those bulls if not out perform them. His carcass is better as well.
I still think Complete can run with any of those bulls if not out perform them. His carcass is better as well.
nate53
Well-known member
Trevorgrey - has a point, what kind of cows are they? What are their strong points and their weaknesses in relation to the desired carcass results of their calves?
How are the calves going to be raised? (creep feed, grass, grain, both, etc.).
Just looking at data that is available, I would say a Waukaru bull (maybe 464). They have top of the line growth in the breed (if the feed is there) and have data to back it up on the grid. There are other operations that seem to give up a little on the growth but have more maternal qualities (which isn't a plus in the situation you have created). I think there are probably several bulls out there that could match up and possibly do better than the the Waukaru bulls on the grid without sacrificing the growth, but their production is undocumented, unknown, or unavailable?
Why not make your own carcass bull? In other words find or make a bull that you feel meets this criteria, breed the 100 cows. Record all data from birth to slaughter and if done right, I would say you would have just as good if not better results to promote for your bull than anybody else in the breed presently has for any bull. The bad part is this will take time and nothing goes according to plan all the time.
Who in the shorthorn breed has a bull strictly designed for the grid? Stacked generations deep for the grid? Nobody?
How are the calves going to be raised? (creep feed, grass, grain, both, etc.).
Just looking at data that is available, I would say a Waukaru bull (maybe 464). They have top of the line growth in the breed (if the feed is there) and have data to back it up on the grid. There are other operations that seem to give up a little on the growth but have more maternal qualities (which isn't a plus in the situation you have created). I think there are probably several bulls out there that could match up and possibly do better than the the Waukaru bulls on the grid without sacrificing the growth, but their production is undocumented, unknown, or unavailable?
Why not make your own carcass bull? In other words find or make a bull that you feel meets this criteria, breed the 100 cows. Record all data from birth to slaughter and if done right, I would say you would have just as good if not better results to promote for your bull than anybody else in the breed presently has for any bull. The bad part is this will take time and nothing goes according to plan all the time.
Who in the shorthorn breed has a bull strictly designed for the grid? Stacked generations deep for the grid? Nobody?
aandtcattle
Well-known member
There are 2 shorthorn breeders in the US that I am aware of that have multiple (more than 2 or 3) generation carcass oriented cattle. I have used cattle from one of these firms with good success on the grid from the resulting progeny. The bull that I would use in a commercial herd for terminal calves is RS 007 409 08 (Bond). He is an RS 007 son which goes back to Dunbeacon Venture and is out of the 409 cow, a Max 335 daughter who now resides at Sullivan's. Bond scanned a 9.52 IMF with less than .20 rib fat and still sports a 102 ratio for REA. Limited kill data shows he transmits the high marbling and sufficient muscle and the calves by him flat grow! I will ultrasound a bigger group of his progeny in March. Other bulls that would have to be on my radar would be A&T Black Gold a 50% shorthorn/50% angus bull I raised that ratioed 141 on both REA and IMF as yearling in a contemporary group of over 30 head, his progeny are also excelling on the kill sheets. A&T Optimus Prime is a Bond son that I will get the first calves out of in March. Optimus Prime is an exciting carcass and calving ease prospect as he was 68 pounds at birth and posted a 123 IMF ratio and he is out of the highly consistent marbling female, DRC 475CS, a female direct from the Dover Ranch in MT. Also, JSF Navigator T2, herd sire at Shady Maple, is a bull I have bred angus cows to with lots of success. The biggest ribeye I have ever had on a kill sheet was a Navigator x Rito 2RT2 with a 20.5 REA and CAB.
RyanChandler
Well-known member
What about Top Hand? How do his #s compare to the other bulls listed?
" Compared to some of the most famous sires of all beef breeds, he considered to be one of the highest profitability bulls in the business. At the 2010 Great State Feedout in SW Iowa, Top Hand progeny were consistently some of the best at feed efficiency, WDA, ADG, Yield Grade and Quality Grade, etc. This allowed Top Hand to rank in the top 6th percentile for overall profitability after hundreds of sire groups and thousands of steers were tested and slaughtered."
How can we find out who was #1?
Of any I've seen, Top Hand daughters rank way up there in terms of type.
" Compared to some of the most famous sires of all beef breeds, he considered to be one of the highest profitability bulls in the business. At the 2010 Great State Feedout in SW Iowa, Top Hand progeny were consistently some of the best at feed efficiency, WDA, ADG, Yield Grade and Quality Grade, etc. This allowed Top Hand to rank in the top 6th percentile for overall profitability after hundreds of sire groups and thousands of steers were tested and slaughtered."
How can we find out who was #1?
Of any I've seen, Top Hand daughters rank way up there in terms of type.
