Shorthorn bulls

JCC · Sep 15, 2010

The question by Ag Teacher along with the responses got me wondering about shorthorn bulls. Where does a person go to find shorthorn bulls to use on a commercial herd if he were so inclined? These bulls would have to have BW, WW, YW, Scan, data. As well they would have to be defect free, solid red or dark raon out of a herd of cows that go out and work without supplemental feed all year long.

I can think of MANY places to go to buy a shorthorn bull but many of the previous qualities are not going to be able to be met. As well I personally would require frame score of 5.5 to 6.3, these bulls will be out of dams that are over 6 years old and have produced a calf every 365 days, and weaned a minimum of 50% of her body weight. Probably most importantly the cowherd has to have great udders.

I am in the market but I am afraid that I will ultimately not be able to find what I am looking for and wind up with a different breed.

Thanks Travis

shortyjock89 · Sep 15, 2010

Hey Travis,

Have you looked into Waukaru Shorthorns? They have one of the best commercial-based shorthorn herds in the US. Their cows also make excellent show heifer momma's if used with the right bulls. They're located at Rensselear Indiana.

Gary Kaper at Watseka, IL has some very impressive cows and last I knew, he hadn't bought a heifer in like 30 years.

Y lazy Y is another good farm, and I believe they're in Montana.

Rob Sneed in Missouri is another great source of commercial-oriented shorthorns.

justintime · Sep 15, 2010

We will be offering approximately 50 performance tested, ultrasound tested, Breeding soundness tested defect free Shorthorn bulls at our annual bull sale in April,2011. They will also have moderate BWs ( most from 75-100 lbs) and the majority of them polled. We also offer delivery to a central point in the Midwest at cost. Last two years we have hauled them to SW Iowa, as that was pretty central for our buyers.

sjcattleco · Sep 15, 2010

Y lazy Y, Elbee farms, S&J Cattle Co, Muridale, Ohlde, Rob Sneed, HUBS, A&T, Lakeside

Really the only way to know for sure is to visit a herd and look over the cows... Anyone who buys a bull without taking about 30 minutes to look at his dam is not real smart! She does not have to the fanciest thing in the world B/C looks can be deceiving but I certainly do not want a herd sire that is from a cow that is extreme in anyway except quality!!! I have always said that in all cattle, we as breeders, should be striving for the perfect average while using the average to get there!!! if that makes any sense! I hope it does!

Unless a breeder is linebreeding to commercial type cattle and concentrating on BWs and CE along with masculinity and muscling, its really hard to recommend anything... Just B/C a breeder a promoting solid red cattle, carcass traits, polledness, or gainability, does not make them a good choice for " commercial" cattle. It is a proven fact that if an animal is "balanced" and built correctly all the other traits will fall in line. Including the trait that puts money in your checking account! There is really no need in the commercial beef industry for 6 frame cattle when there are plenty of people with the ability to produce 1300# steers in a 5 frame or lower!!! guys like Ohlde and Kit Pharo prove that.. plus look at just about every State fair Champ Steer.

JCC · Sep 15, 2010

SJ

I agree that a person really needs to do their homework when looking for their next herd bull. I like to look at the whole cowherd not just the individual. If the cowherd is consistent I believe it is a good tell if the producer made the right decisions when it came time to cull cows or not. I would rather see consistently average cows producing consistently average calves than have the front pasture cows with their exceptional calves be the only ones shown while everything else is hidden away.

I have to disagree with you that we don't need 6 frame cattle in the commercial industry. Ultimately producers get paid per pound and the majority of those producers are getting that check every fall selling weaned calves. If we down size our cowherds to far you are also going to be reducing production. I notice after using Ohlde bulls on our cows that in the fall we were weaning calves that were 50 to 100 pounds lighter than their counterparts sired by the "mainstream" bulls. We also found that the Ohlde cows are not any easier fleshing than the cows that we bred before the purchase of the Ohlde cows. I guess we have found more important is at what cost does that production come? I want cows that will go out and raise aprox. 50% of her body weight in calf every year and flesh back up for winter time on the forages in the pasture and residue in the crop fields. If she can't do that she will be someone elses problem.

Olson

I have looked at Waukaru cattle but kind of feel that they have left some of the good out of their cattle while they have been chasing the carcass quality thing. If you are familiar with the Angus breed at all I would call them the Gardners of the shorthorn world. With that being said that is the only operation that came directly to mind when thinking about breeders that could provide those qualities that I am looking for.

I am married to the daughter of a life long shorthorn breeder. When we got married we each brought aprox. 25 hd of cows into the marriage. The angus cows I had and her shorthorns were all run together and managed exactly the same with the same criteria and a few short years (5 to be exact) we have 0 shorthorn cows left in the herd. For one reason or another they sorted themselves out. I am just looking to add back part of their heritage to our breeding program that will meet the qualifications needed to stay in the herd and not get culled.

Thanks for the help

Aussie · Sep 15, 2010

JCC said:
I have to disagree with you that we don't need 6 frame cattle in the commercial industry. Ultimately producers get paid per pound and the majority of those producers are getting that check every fall selling weaned calves. If we down size our cowherds to far you are also going to be reducing production. I notice after using Ohlde bulls on our cows that in the fall we were weaning calves that were 50 to 100 pounds lighter than their counterparts sired by the "mainstream" bulls. We also found that the Ohlde cows are not any easier fleshing than the cows that we bred before the purchase of the Ohlde cows. I guess we have found more important is at what cost does that production come? I want cows that will go out and raise aprox. 50% of her body weight in calf every year and flesh back up for winter time on the forages in the pasture and residue in the crop fields. If she can't do that she will be someone elses problem.

Yeah <party> someone that agrees with me on frame/production and is an angus breeder. Welcome JCC

JCC · Sep 15, 2010

Thanks Aussie for the welcome.

Now please don't confuse me for the lover of big framed cattle, I don't believe there is much use for any cattle over about a 6.5 frame in my environment nor do I think that 5.0 frame cattle are incredibly useful in our environment either.

mark tenenbaum · Sep 15, 2010

JCC said:
Thanks Aussie for the welcome.

Now please don't confuse me for the lover of big framed cattle, I don't believe there is much use for any cattle over about a 6.5 frame in my environment nor do I think that 5.0 frame cattle are incredibly useful in our environment either. ////-Do have a red super stout-75 pound BW son of Free For All out of my best Cumberland cow.The Cumberlands are one of the top cow families in the shorthorn breed-this cow was bred a little different -and was big-but the bws are proven-moderate. Mark Mueller at Diamond M Cattle co. DMCC--raised the calf.. Mueller has produced some of the most commercially accepted (and used) non-or hybrid Angus -black cattle in the Maine and X bred breeds. 2 examples are: Dmcc Bodybuilder-sire ofone of the lowest BW bulls I know of-(tlm bouncer) and Dmcc LTD Edition-arguably the most influential and balanced-(BW-Maternal etc etc) maine bull that ever lived.He knows commercial needs,sells alot of commercial bulls-and really likes this calf.

Aussie · Sep 15, 2010

JCC said:
Thanks Aussie for the welcome.

Now please don't confuse me for the lover of big framed cattle, I don't believe there is much use for any cattle over about a 6.5 frame in my environment nor do I think that 5.0 frame cattle are incredibly useful in our environment either.

No I am right there with you

justintime · Sep 15, 2010

Aussie said:
JCC said:

I have to disagree with you that we don't need 6 frame cattle in the commercial industry. Ultimately producers get paid per pound and the majority of those producers are getting that check every fall selling weaned calves. If we down size our cowherds to far you are also going to be reducing production. I notice after using Ohlde bulls on our cows that in the fall we were weaning calves that were 50 to 100 pounds lighter than their counterparts sired by the "mainstream" bulls. We also found that the Ohlde cows are not any easier fleshing than the cows that we bred before the purchase of the Ohlde cows. I guess we have found more important is at what cost does that production come? I want cows that will go out and raise aprox. 50% of her body weight in calf every year and flesh back up for winter time on the forages in the pasture and residue in the crop fields. If she can't do that she will be someone elses problem.

Click to expand...

Yeah <party> someone that agrees with me on frame/production and is an angus breeder. Welcome JCC

Another in agreement here.... we walk amongst you!!

Aussie · Sep 15, 2010

justintime said:
Another in agreement here.... we walk amongst you!!

That's three in the world. Sounds like the start of a joke. An American an Aussie and a Canadian walk into a bar.......

shortdawg · Sep 15, 2010

Wakaru - they have like 100 yrs worth of data on their cattle.

sjcattleco · Sep 15, 2010

JCC said:
Thanks Aussie for the welcome.

Now please don't confuse me for the lover of big framed cattle, I don't believe there is much use for any cattle over about a 6.5 frame in my environment nor do I think that 5.0 frame cattle are incredibly useful in our environment either.

the only difference between a frame 5 cow and a frame 6 cow is 3 inches.... if you take a frame 5 cow weighing 1200 and a frame 6 cow weighing 1200 which cow is better? i promise you that 99% will pick the 5.... No one pays for that 3 inches or daylight under their belly!!! That is what is wrong with SHORTHORN right now!!!!!!! if EVERY breeder would strive to take 3 inches of frame off and not lose a pound of weaning wt ( and it can be done)!!!!! the entire breed will improve 100000% ....Fleshing ability and fertility will increase along with feed efficiency and carcass yield! its really a no brainer to me...

aj · Sep 15, 2010

I would conncur with th original post for the most part. 90% of shorties as I understand have more than supplemental treatment. So this cuts into numbers. Seems like big cows would have big calves. Pretty simple deal. The Shorthorn breed has big cows for you though.

aj · Sep 15, 2010

Give up on argueing this philosphy on this board. You will get beat to death.

sjcattleco · Sep 15, 2010

naaaa its fun!!!! If everyone agreed life would be boring plus I know I am right! hows that for confidence!!! (lol)

aj · Sep 16, 2010

JCC set some great parameters. Having at least a 6 year old dam is a great parameter.Calving every year also. How many people even think like this on the board. One example of having a big calf is not always best is as follows. My bro herekeeps setting back calving dates on his 100 cows. His records indicate that his costs have been going down with this move. A smaller calf generally brings more per pound also. Trev has mentioned this. Bro is almost hitting the scenario of selling 450 # calves at about 50$ less than 625$ calves but he has lowered costs around 120$ a calf. So the bumper sticker statement " I get paid by the pound" can be mis leading as far as dollars are concerned. I haven't been to Iowa in almost 30 years so I probably don't have a feel for how things are down out. I know historicallt there was a time where cattle were hauled to the corn belt to feed. Now it is cheaper to haul corn to Kansas or where ever and leave the cattle here or in Northern Texas because of a more moderate enviroment. I don't know what a mainstream bull is either. I think Ohldes Homer bull is fairly much different then the Emblazon or his Legend bull also. I think the most important thing to me is to find a breeder that does set the fertility standards. The calving every year requirement. A breeder that roughs the cows a little. Then look at the survivors and then worry about data. A herd that has all kinds of data is worthless to me if they don't rough their cows a bit. The Shorthorn breed is a maternal breed in my opinion so yearling data on a Shorthorn bull would be 4th as far as a valuable trait is concerned. sjcattle you are right in your philosphy and cattle. When or if the "Me to breeders" jump on your train you should be well positioned.jmo typo...should have been 625# instead of $.

aj · Sep 16, 2010

And ps....I'm sorry but a cattle that have back to back embryo transplant pedigrees scare the heck out me. I know it is supposed to be the badge of honor in the shorthorn show ring deal but dang it if strict selection pressure is not applied to these cattle like udder selection and being able to rough it these cattle are worthless to me untill they prove themselves for convenience traits and whatnot.

Aussie · Sep 16, 2010

JCC we appear to have stolen your thread sorry but as know one will reply to SJ I will bite.
Why I like larger frame cattle. Firstly I do not like the 80's giraffes all leg fresh air is no good to anyone. I am on the other side of the world with different markets and conditions. I know this works for me.
Over the last ten years our packer has changed his specs for young cattle from a top live of 970 lb to the bottom wt being 970 and the top wt 1410lb. This is for young cattle 2 teeth and under.Cattle need to grow to meet the higher end of these specs. All cattle are finished on grass with only hay and grass silage supplement. We run a cow calf unit per 2 acres.
The smaller frame cattle if they do reach a heavier weight at weaning are fat they just will run out of steam will not grow on to that top end where the cream is. It can be argued to a point they can be turned of quicker but if calving to suit your grass your ylgs will have all the spring and summer to fill out that extra frame on cheap feed.
As far as breeders selling weaners I notice you talking about on another thread the amount of lbs of cow a farm could run. Really the true bench mark is the amount of lbs that can be turned off a farm per year after all that is what is paying the bills. If frame 5 cows calves at weaning weigh the same as frame 6+ cows calves they must be very fat. Here if selling weaners they do not have to be fat so he has wasted feed to get them to that weigh. To achieve a similar fat score calf he needs to run more to turn off the same lbs per acre. So the frame 5 guy will have to run more cows to compete so they better be more efficient because that is more mouths and feet in the winter.
That's my oppion it works here. This is the link to our local packers product. http://www.capegrimbeef.com.au/ They are doing a great job with grass feed beef. The red cattle are south devons and the blacks are angus south devon cross by some great bulls breed by a really good bloke.

I promise this is my last on frame. Please have a look at the link though to see the paradice we live in

trevorgreycattleco · Sep 16, 2010

JCC ,sue on here will have all the info you want to select a bull. sjcattleco, Leveldale, A@T Cattle, Meadowlane, Sneeds, Kapers, Mark T on here, all good places to go. These folks run their cattle as their enviroment sees fit. I plan on using these places to re build my herd.

Shorthorn bulls

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