shorthorn epds?

ok i dont know much about shorthorns but i do know that there milk epds read really low why is that? every shorthorn ive seen milks fairly decent. ???

If you're reading them in comparison to other breeds, then that's your problem. EPDs (or EBVs as we call them here) are only a comparison within a breed, and the figure stems from the calibrated base for that breed. What is a good figure in one breed, isn't necessarily good in another.
Does that make sense?

yeh i get that they dont compare breeds but why wouldnt they raise the number into the positives to look better cuz alot are negatives

wyatt said:

yeh i get that they dont compare breeds but why wouldnt they raise the number into the positives to look better cuz alot are negatives

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They just can't raise the number cause they want to or make up a number. In the show world alot of the shorthorns have a negative number or a low number compared to alot of the big milker shorthorns that are sold for the purpose of improving milk amount in a herd. Those low or negative milk numbers on Shorthorns don't bother me because Shorthorns are great milkers, so a little below average milk amount to an average Shorthorn is not much.

thanks

Here in SW IN I like a Shorthorn cow to have a milk EPD of 0.0 up to 5.0.  Her calf will probably do okay even if she's up to -5.0, but it is best to avoid breeding negative milk EPD bulls to a cow that is already negative.  We have mostly fescue, and a higher MEPD (than +5 or +10 at the most) could result in an open cow with a fat calf.

In another environment, more milk might be okay or even less out west.  An expert once advised me to avoid more than one negative MEPD bull in a 10 year cycle.  Shorty's usually milk just fine, like you said.  I like to avoid extremes.  Keep an eye on accuracy--MEPD is very volatile, and as the accuracy goes up the MEPD often changes a lot.  One famous bull a few years ago went from way high MEPD to somewhat negative and back to a bit positive.

Another thing to watch is when people are not patient and breed to the "bull of the month" from some fancy donor cow (maybe weighs a ton, and might be suspect on milk), your herd can begin drifting toward negative MEPD, since the huge donor cow (that hardly knows how to nurse a calf) after a while turns out to be not a very good working cow genetically, at least on milk.

Give me a good working cow that is slightly plain, but "out dams" herself in contrast to some yard ornament that will not raise a stout calf.  You can see that I'm partial to cattle that will fit into commercial environment.  Some cattle will work in the pasture and show also, and I have no problem with people who can produce that kind. 

I would not even look at EPD's especially for milk  Milk is a function of frame size. more milk = bigger cattle. Also if you are now dealing with cattle that are of some very old genetics or if they are linebred the EPS's generated are meaningless. Breed cattle that are good solid functional cattle and you can ignore EPDs forever and never be disappointed!

I have been raising shorthorn cattle since '98, and simmentals since 2001 mostly using AI.  I showed shorthorn cross cattle in my youth, shorthorn herd bull over cattle my parents inherited from my grandfather (commercial herefords, simmentals mostly).

I have had a few heifers out of AI bulls that did not have adequate milk and a few out of other bulls that have almost too much milk. Perhaps in the beginning I  focused on growth too much.  Also mature size seems to creep up all to readily.  At this point many of the shorthorn are as large and larger than the simmentals.

Have any of you found a milk # that works for you in a forage system with limited supplemental grain.  I am in South Alabama.  Pasture and hay is mostly Bahia, Bermuda, crabgrass mix.  Cows are fed mostly grass, hay, mineral with a little supplemental feeding to pen and assist with handling for AI.


Looking for experiences you all might have had.

sjcattleco said:

I would not even look at EPD's especially for milk  Milk is a function of frame size. more milk = bigger cattle. Also if you are now dealing with cattle that are of some very old genetics or if they are linebred the EPS's generated are meaningless. Breed cattle that are good solid functional cattle and you can ignore EPDs forever and never be disappointed!

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(clapping) (clapping) (clapping) (clapping)
We are using 7 different shorthorn bulls on purebred cows this year and I don't have a clue what their EPD's are.  The only time I have looked at the EPD's of one of our bulls is because someone made a comment to me about him, so I looked them up.

Milk EPD has nothing to do with volume of milk produced nor does it have anything to do with frame or mature size.


The dairy industry measures the success of a cow in pounds of milk produced and the nutritional attributes or fat content of the milk. Research has shown that the nutritional quality of milk offered by a beef cow is just as important as the amount produced in generating heavier calves. Since beef cattle breeders don’t milk our cows, success is measured in pounds of calf attributed to milk at weaning. A bull’s Milk EPD is determined by his daughter’s ability to wean heavier calves than her contemporaries. Just because a cow weans the heaviest calf every year, does not necessarily mean her Milk EPD should be the highest in the herd. The performance of her calf could be attributed to the dam’s or sire’s growth genetics or a number of other environmental factors eliminated in the EPD calculation (age of dam, birth date, etc.). Shorthorn breed average Milk EPD (sires) is +2.4.

At this stage, I agree the EPDs are rather suspect BUT fortunately, for those taking the proactive approach of enrolling in the WHR, the numbers will no longer be formulated out of thin air but by actual performance data in relationship to contemporaries.

It is true that in the dairy industry that cows milk is measured in pounds and also the components of fat and protein.  Some breeds are able to produce milk that is better suited to cheese making than others.  Some of these same traits can also be found in beef cattle.

We have been researching a few things and as for the milk EPD, it may not be as much of a factor in how well a cow milks or her calf performs.  How many of you have seen cows that appear not to have a vary big udder but can wean off a large calf?  How about the cow that looks like she should be in a dairy but yet her calf doesn't perform as well?

The secret may be in the milk and traits that are associated with the milk.  Leptin, and the Casien's (there are a few of them), and their may be some other traits.

If you were to go out in my pasture and point out the five worst calves, I guarantee you they would be from my five worst (least volume) milkers. 

-XBAR- said:

Milk EPD has nothing to do with volume of milk produced nor does it have anything to do with frame or mature size.


The dairy industry measures the success of a cow in pounds of milk produced and the nutritional attributes or fat content of the milk. Research has shown that the nutritional quality of milk offered by a beef cow is just as important as the amount produced in generating heavier calves. Since beef cattle breeders don’t milk our cows, success is measured in pounds of calf attributed to milk at weaning. A bull’s Milk EPD is determined by his daughter’s ability to wean heavier calves than her contemporaries. Just because a cow weans the heaviest calf every year, does not necessarily mean her Milk EPD should be the highest in the herd. The performance of her calf could be attributed to the dam’s or sire’s growth genetics or a number of other environmental factors eliminated in the EPD calculation (age of dam, birth date, etc.). Shorthorn breed average Milk EPD (sires) is +2.4.

At this stage, I agree the EPDs are rather suspect BUT fortunately, for those taking the proactive approach of enrolling in the WHR, the numbers will no longer be formulated out of thin air but by actual performance data in relationship to contemporaries.

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Thank you, this is a much better explanation of how milk epd's are calculated. A bull has to have females in service in order to have any kind of accuracy.

cbcr said:

It is true that in the dairy industry that cows milk is measured in pounds and also the components of fat and protein.  Some breeds are able to produce milk that is better suited to cheese making than others.  Some of these same traits can also be found in beef cattle.

We have been researching a few things and as for the milk EPD, it may not be as much of a factor in how well a cow milks or her calf performs.  How many of you have seen cows that appear not to have a vary big udder but can wean off a large calf?  How about the cow that looks like she should be in a dairy but yet her calf doesn't perform as well?

The secret may be in the milk and traits that are associated with the milk.  Leptin, and the Casien's (there are a few of them), and their may be some other traits.

Click to expand...

Another really good point. I would much rather have a moderate sized udder that is tight up to the cow instead of huge and asking for trouble. These cows that have small udders with more maternal traits can perform just as well as the large uddered cows. That's what I am seeing.