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Offline Real Shorthorns

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Shorthorn History Buffs
« on: September 04, 2018, 03:57:58 AM »
For those interested in Shorthorn history check out the new historical section on the Heritage Shorthorn Society website (www.heritageshorthorn.org) that is being written by Dr. Bert Moore.  He is presenting what he considers to be the most important Shorthorn bulls and cows, along with pictures and extended pedigrees, for specific time periods starting with the pre-1890 section.  So far he has done 3 sections with many more to be posted over the next year.

Offline beebe

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Re: Shorthorn History Buffs
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2018, 09:10:26 PM »
Yes Joe is doing a good thing.  It appears that there is growing interest in native Shorthorns.

Offline kiblercattle

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Re: Shorthorn History Buffs
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2018, 02:41:48 PM »
Interesting read a few of the bulls I really like the looks of are butte lee leader 63rd, kenmar leader 13b, and hubs director. Does anyone have any info on these bulls other than what is listed or any different pictures?

Offline Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Re: Shorthorn History Buffs
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2018, 02:30:19 PM »
 :)

Offline oakview

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Re: Shorthorn History Buffs
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2018, 02:16:35 PM »
Butte Lee Leader 63rd was one of the better Leader 21st sons to be used in the midwest, mostly Missouri and Iowa.  I helped Larry Reap show Kenmar Leader 13B back in the day.  He was also a very good bull, one of the better Leader 9th sons I saw.  I liked Ralph Stirm's Kenmar Leader 21A just as well, though.  Leader 13B ended up in Texas.  There are some photos of him in old Shorthorn magazines that are quite impressive.  Hub's Director was a 100% dual purpose bull raised by Virgil Wegener and Steve Washburn in Kansas.  In my opinion, he was the best bull they produced, though several others were good, too.  Hub's Impact II, Hub's Dominant, and Hub's Exceptional come to mind. 

Offline kiblercattle

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Re: Shorthorn History Buffs
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2018, 08:27:59 PM »
My grandparents and dad owned a bull sired by director in the early 80s named hubs dasher. They felt that he didn't leave a very positive impact on our herd as compared to the other bulls they were using at the time. What was anyone else's experience with director cattle?

Offline oakview

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Re: Shorthorn History Buffs
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2018, 08:47:06 PM »
I never used Director myself, but thought he was an excellent bull when they showed him.  I had some calves sired by his full brother, Hub's Doctor, out of the cows I got when I bought the K & K herd (small herd, 10 cows) and they were decent, but nothing great.  Pa Do bought several females from Hub's and I have several descendants of the Fantastic line that go back to some cows I got from the Stouts.  I've got semen from Leader 63rd, Leader 13B, and President 26A.  Maybe I should try it on my Fantastics.

Offline Medium Rare

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Re: Shorthorn History Buffs
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2018, 12:29:55 PM »
Enjoyed the read.

I've been kicking around the idea of using Director on some pedigrees that appeared to mesh well in the past. Not sure how well the progeny would fit into today's markets, but good working cows always have palace here.

I have two et calves out of a dover cow and a son of 26a that look like they could sure do some good in a commercial setting. Deep dark red, sound, and well made. It's a shame 26a's growth epds look like someone threw them down a well.

Offline oakview

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Re: Shorthorn History Buffs
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2018, 04:46:06 PM »
I assume by "threw them down a well" you mean the EPDs are not as high as you would like them to be?  I hope they are lower than the growth EPDs of the bulls we commonly use today.  You have to remember that the era bulls like President 26A  were developed in was the era of 400 pound weaning weights.  Leader 21 and his descendants were used in an attempt to improve performance, as well as win a few shows I might add.  IF reliable EPDs were available in that time period, they would have been highly favorable for bulls like President 26A compared to most bulls in use then.  Likewise, the carcass EPDs for most of the old bulls should be poorer than those in use today.  The most common criticisms of Shorthorns back in the day were too much fat and small ribeyes.  From visual appearance, I would think that President 26A was well above average in carcass traits for his era, but I hope we have made some progress in that arena.  The first Shorthorns we bought long ago from the Fitzgeralds were more of the dual purpose type, though they had chosen to keep them in the beef herdbook when the big split occurred.  We were so "smart" that we had to "Scotchicize" them.  We used a son of Louada Caesar followed by a son of Louada Keynote followed by Hi View Royal Cameo.  Within 6 or 8 years we had successfully lowered our herd levels in both performance and carcass quality.  It was probably a good thing that the calves were short legged because their dams' udders had been lowered with each generation.  But, our calves sure had nice heads.  When the type change came, we bought a son of Boa Kae White Tornado and performance improved.  Leader 21 became available and performance of the herd improved drastically.  An example of how growth traits of years gone by compare to the genetics of today has been graphically illustrated in our own herd.  I used Diamond Zulu 3Z and a son of Kinnaber Leader 9th simultaneously  The Zulu calves were noticeably higher performing, also a little larger at birth, as you would expect.  There is no comparison between the two lines in muscling.  I have kept a son of the Leader 9th bull out of a Deerpark Leader 18th cow and the performance lever has risen compared to the previous generation.  I like the appearance of his calves better than his sire's.  Fortunately for me, the calving ease I was counting on through the use of Leader 9th genetics has been more than maintained through the use of his son.  I guess I like the traits some of the old genetics offer to compliment what we have today.  Somewhere between 400 pound weaning weights and 8 frame score tube shaped cattle seems to be a good place to be.   

Offline Medium Rare

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Re: Shorthorn History Buffs
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2018, 09:46:41 PM »
Yes. I understand there were some, a lot?, of absolutely terrible bulls in past eras. However, I believe the system has punished bulls across the board based on their birthdate, or their sire's birthdate, rather than actual performance. A good portion of these old bulls have absolutely no weaning weights showing in the database, so what put their numbers where they are with the narrow standard deviation bars around them as if they are accurate? I just assume it's the assumption that cattle have improved yearly as epd creep would lead us to believe. I don't know what year our system uses as "0", or if it still does now that BOLT is running.

As far as pasture performance, I've had Cherry Fillet calves wean off over 600 pounds without creep, yet his epds are absolutely buried due to his sire being Weston Trademark 3rd. The 26a grandsired bull calf is going to push 600 without creep in the worst drought my area has seen in at least 50 years. A Leader 18th et heifer ready to wean who must to be around 575. A DMH Maverick calf who will no doubt hit 575lbs. All these calves come from old genetics carrying absolutely terrible growth epds, yet year after year some of the older genetics perform almost as well or better than other ai sires in the same pasture. I have commercial Patent sired calves along with some big numbered red angus sired calves in the same pastures as some of these old genetics this year. The actual differences in performance in no way reflects the vast differences on paper.  How about Columbus or Chieftain9th? Knowing what you know about Columbus, and possibly Chieftain 9th, how do their growth and even milk epds correspond with your knowledge? Loving has turned in quite a few scans on Kaper 4508 calves showing ribs well over 1"/100lbs, yet his ribeye number is buried from what I assume is due to being 26A's son. Burying a bull into the bottom 5% of the breed takes many generations to recover from leaving only the people willing to laugh at the numbers to use them. Sweeping good bulls under the rug in the name of assumed progress just doesn't seem like a good idea, especially considering some of them actually have a set of good nuts under them when compared to some modern popular lines.

I've had some calves out of the full sib to your leader 9th son and will say, while they were all out of heifers, their growth was as their epds might suggest. He served his low bw purpose quite well though. I would also be interested in using your 9-18 bull on heifers if there's semen available.

As a side note, I've tried to give the association commercial contemporary group data from previous heifer groups in an attempt to let the numbers correct on some of these bloodlines. BW, WW, YW, and pelvic scores, the whole works. They didn't want it, or at least I was left at.... How much money would I be willing to pay to turn it in. Turning it in has no value to me. I assumed it had value to the breed.


Offline aj

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Re: Shorthorn History Buffs
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2018, 12:02:09 AM »
Dad bought Hubs Impact 1. We sold some heifer calves in on of Hubs Production sales out him. I was just out of high school but I think that there was some confusion about Hubs impact two's sire. I'm thinking that they decided that Impact 1 bred his mother and was the actual sire? There was some kind of a deal anyway.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline aj

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Re: Shorthorn History Buffs
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2018, 12:11:20 AM »
The computer says hh robins impact......the bull that dad owned and Hubs impact two were out of the same cow.....Clara.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline oakview

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Re: Shorthorn History Buffs
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2018, 05:01:45 PM »
I have no doubt that some of the old time bulls can sire some real performance, but, in my opinion, some of it is probably due to the performance capabilities of their dams compared to the female side of what was available 45 years ago.  I have in front of me the 1971-72 Midwest Breeders beef sire directory.  They have three Shorthorn bulls available.  Weston Fullback, a direct son of Leader 21 shows a 205 day adjusted weaning weight of 566 and an adjusted yearling weight of 1,032, index of 118, significantly above average.  The footnote states that Leader 21 is one of the great performance bulls of the breed.  Fullback had exceptional indexes even though most of his contemporaries were half brothers or sired by half brothers.  Also shown is Smallflower Leader 2nd, a grandson of Leader 21st.  He shows a yearling weight of 1,005, though no indexes are listed.  The third bull in the directory is Ball Dee Perfect Count.  There is no performance data shown, only his mature weight of 2,620 pounds.  It is interesting to note that the semen price on the first two bulls was 2.50 and the Count semen was 10.00  I also have the ABS bull directory from the same time period.  In progeny testing, 2 herds, 19 different bulls used, 129 contemporaries, the Leader 21 calves averaged 492 pounds at 205 days, group average was 450.  ADG was 3.30 and 2.77, respectively.  Kinnaber Leader 9th himself shows an adjusted 205 day weight of 577, birth weight of 70 pounds.  His progeny had an average 205 day weight of 467, group average was 452.  ADG figures were 2.66 and 2.55, respectively.  Cruachan Max Leader 551 is the only other Shorthorn bull with performance figures in the book.  He shows individual performance of 601 pounds at 205 days compared to a group average of 588.  Max Leader weighed 1,580 at 23 months.  From this data, you could conclude that these lines were among the higher performing Shorthorn genetics available at that time.  I am also looking through the August 15, 1966 issue of Shorthorn World.  Colomeadow Sting Ray, owned by Dale Petty of Iowa.  Sting Ray is promoted as the breed's first and only certified meat sire.  Progeny rib eye area per 100 pounds carcass weight was 2.16 sq. in., not just significantly over 1 sq. in., well over 2 square inches per 100 pounds carcass weight.  PRI minimum standards were 2.00.  In that magazine, there are very few breeders that advertised performance.  Those that do are crowing about any weaning weight over 500 pounds or yearling weight over 1,000 pounds.  I don't know if any of this proves anything, but it sure is interesting.  In my opinion, the GOOD bulls of times gone past have contributed to genetic performance improvement and you'd expect them to sire at least decent performing calves on the genetics we have today.  Likewise, if you used some of the poorer performing bulls of the past, their calves would be just as slow growers today as they were 50 years ago.     

Offline Medium Rare

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Re: Shorthorn History Buffs
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2018, 09:27:58 PM »
Some interesting numbers. I assume most of the bulls that made up the bottom end of their time are not still sitting around in tanks to currently show some of the poor growth of the era. Can't help but wonder how much of the above data is in the database and how it could contribute to sorting some of those bull's descendants now that bolt is in place. A quick scan of a few of them shows next to nothing made its way into the current system. If Leader 21 had Weston Fullback's and other progeny's contemporary group indexes in the database would he still be buried in the bottom 5% of the breed? Some of those numbers also make the current sire test figures look, well... Interesting.

I was speaking in 1"/100lbs live weight via scan data. I have so little purebred kill data I can't make many comparisons with old/new without some really fuzzy math.




Offline oakview

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Re: Shorthorn History Buffs
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2018, 09:54:20 PM »
We have had various sire testing programs over the years.  I participated in one in the 70's through the ASA and Padlock Ranch.  Every bit of data available was collected on progeny of maybe 20 bulls or more for several years.   I doubt if any of that data has been included in the current figures.  It would be interesting to see how and if any of that would correlate to today's numbers.  It's difficult to compare cattle from era to era just like it's difficult to compare Babe Ruth to Henry Aaron to Barry Bonds.  Were steroids around in the 20's or just Budweiser?  The best I can do to compute the Colomeadow Sting Ray data to a live weight basis would be about 1.36 sq in.  I'm glad I misinterpreted the data cited earlier.  1.3 sq in per 100 pound carcass weight would not make as big a steak on my plate as I'm used to! 

 

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