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Online knabe

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Re: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock
« Reply #75 on: May 08, 2016, 09:02:46 PM »
GaryBob.... I got my boy baby this morning. A TPS Coronet Leader 21 X Shadybrook Presto 73G.... 88 lb, polled and red with only a few white hairs in his tail. I was expecting more roan but the cow is solid red. I will try to get some pictures posted on here in the next few days.

Hi folks,

Check out this one year old son of "TPS Coronet Leader 21st"!


any update on this bull?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 09:04:32 PM by knabe »
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Offline librarian

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Re: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock
« Reply #76 on: May 09, 2016, 08:59:47 AM »
I was looking at the same picture day before yesterday wondering the same thing!
And some erratica:
The title on the old post Native-Shorthorn bulls from 50s and 60s has been edited and changed to Bulls. There is a lot of good information in this thread.
http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/native-bulls-from-50's-and-60's/msg412292/#msg412292
That poster has changed his name more than once. This can make it difficult to research old posts because they get lost.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 09:06:26 AM by librarian »
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Offline Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Re: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock
« Reply #77 on: May 09, 2016, 06:44:13 PM »
GaryBob.... I got my boy baby this morning. A TPS Coronet Leader 21 X Shadybrook Presto 73G.... 88 lb, polled and red with only a few white hairs in his tail. I was expecting more roan but the cow is solid red. I will try to get some pictures posted on here in the next few days.

Hi folks,

Check out this one year old son of "TPS Coronet Leader 21st"!


Like him!
Old genetics is the new for future!
 ;D

Offline Dbirdsong

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Re: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock
« Reply #78 on: May 11, 2016, 07:59:15 PM »
I have enjoyed reading this thread. I have been around cattle all my life and have a small herd of registered angus and shorthorn. Both breeds have some great individuals but the shorthorn breed will never be competitive in the commercial market, at least in this area, because of the lack of adequate performance records. When I AI angus cows to a high accuracy sire I am fairly sure what I am going to get with few exceptions. The opposite is true with my shorthorn cows. I might have a 70 pound calve from one cow and 110 pound calf out of the same sire the next day. The 70 pound calf might have a 420 pound weaning weight while the 110 pound calf weans at 500 pounds. Commercial buyers won't deal with those headaches. Especially when they can buy an angus bull and not pull a calf all year and have an average weaning weight of 600 pounds. In this area if I can't sell my shorthorn calves as show calves I take as much as a $20 dollar per hundred weight at the barn. I love my shorthorns because of their sweet dispositions and I am trying to find the right combination to improve consistency.

I was talking to an older cattleman one time and was using all the catch phases we use when talking about shorthorns. I used the word femininity. He looked at me like I was crazy and said he had a different description of a feminine cow. He said if a cow has a calf by the time she is two years old, raises a calf every 365 days for the rest of her life, calves unassisted, and weans a 600lb calf she is feminine.

Until we make the breed work for commercial breeders we will never be more than a niche breed.

JTM

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Re: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock
« Reply #79 on: May 11, 2016, 10:49:04 PM »
I have enjoyed reading this thread. I have been around cattle all my life and have a small herd of registered angus and shorthorn. Both breeds have some great individuals but the shorthorn breed will never be competitive in the commercial market, at least in this area, because of the lack of adequate performance records. When I AI angus cows to a high accuracy sire I am fairly sure what I am going to get with few exceptions. The opposite is true with my shorthorn cows. I might have a 70 pound calve from one cow and 110 pound calf out of the same sire the next day. The 70 pound calf might have a 420 pound weaning weight while the 110 pound calf weans at 500 pounds. Commercial buyers won't deal with those headaches. Especially when they can buy an angus bull and not pull a calf all year and have an average weaning weight of 600 pounds. In this area if I can't sell my shorthorn calves as show calves I take as much as a $20 dollar per hundred weight at the barn. I love my shorthorns because of their sweet dispositions and I am trying to find the right combination to improve consistency.

I was talking to an older cattleman one time and was using all the catch phases we use when talking about shorthorns. I used the word femininity. He looked at me like I was crazy and said he had a different description of a feminine cow. He said if a cow has a calf by the time she is two years old, raises a calf every 365 days for the rest of her life, calves unassisted, and weans a 600lb calf she is feminine.

Until we make the breed work for commercial breeders we will never be more than a niche breed.
Dbird, you pretty much hit the nail on the head with the Shorthorn breed. We have no consistency. Some say our diversity is a strength, I say it's a weakness. The only Shorthorn cattle I have found that perform as good or better commercially than Angus are the A&T cattle with the Dover Ranch influence. I am not straying away from that but building upon it in my commercial herd. We are crossbreeding Angus, Simmental, and our commercial Shorthorns to create cows that will outperform the best of the purebred Angus in a commercial cow/calf setting. I feel your frustrations because I was there and learned a lot about the variances of the Shorthorn breed. I like to say there are about 4 or 5 breeds of Shorthorns within the breed... I encourage you to check out my website to learn more about what we are doing and maybe you will retain some hope that you can utilize some Shorthorn genetics in your commercial cattle.

Offline 3 Eagles shorthorns

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Re: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock
« Reply #80 on: May 11, 2016, 11:22:58 PM »
JTM After researching and talking with local people I think Im going to do what you are doing. we are going to breed shorthorn cattle and cross them with Simmental, in hopes of higher weaning weights because that's what most  commerical producers are looking for come fall time. I have not done that yet, but I think I will be headed that way soon if the shorthorn calves don't wean 650-700 pound range. Calving out my first set of shorthorn cows I can honestly say I am very pleased! They are gentle, calve easy, and with the cows I bought I have found they will let any calf in the herd nurse.

Offline librarian

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Re: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock
« Reply #81 on: May 12, 2016, 09:29:26 AM »
3 Eagles, when I was looking for Boa Kae pictures I saw that red bull and thought he looked like yours or that he would be a good bull for you. If you raise some bulls out of these old genetics try to be patient and give them a chance. They really dont grow fully into themselves until they are 4 years old. Not saying that's a good or bad thing- just how some seem to develop. I like your bull- he might go well on some of the Paint Valley females.
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Offline Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Re: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock
« Reply #82 on: May 12, 2016, 10:51:33 AM »
To reach on a consistency performance, is necessary data!
Data is got with many people using that kind genetics to produce enough data, and after produce consistancy data.
If Shorthorn will always look as a niche breed, we will never get data and never get performance.
Aberdeens are three steps in front Shorthorns as they have DATA, MARKETING and PEOPLE.
People that make a harddefence of their breed, marketing from these people to sale their product, and data from their product that will produce the performance!

JTM

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Re: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock
« Reply #83 on: May 12, 2016, 11:34:30 PM »
To reach on a consistency performance, is necessary data!
Data is got with many people using that kind genetics to produce enough data, and after produce consistancy data.
If Shorthorn will always look as a niche breed, we will never get data and never get performance.
Aberdeens are three steps in front Shorthorns as they have DATA, MARKETING and PEOPLE.
People that make a harddefence of their breed, marketing from these people to sale their product, and data from their product that will produce the performance!
I've got all kinds of data. I invite you to check out my website where we have posted our latest ultrasound data and our Great State Feedout Carcass data from 2015. I know what I have but I don't know what other people have. I don't care what their accuracies say. They aren't proving to be accurate to what I am seeing. There just isn't enough commercially minded seedstock Shorthorn breeders that are collecting data.
3 Eagles, when I was looking for Boa Kae pictures I saw that red bull and thought he looked like yours or that he would be a good bull for you. If you raise some bulls out of these old genetics try to be patient and give them a chance. They really dont grow fully into themselves until they are 4 years old. Not saying that's a good or bad thing- just how some seem to develop. I like your bull- he might go well on some of the Paint Valley females.
Forgive me here Librarian but I always worry when I hear that cattle fully grow into themselves at 4 years old. I started out around Maine Anjou cattle (old traditional type) and Shorthorn show heifer type cattle that just kept growing after they were 3. I would much rather have a cow that made it to 900-1000 lbs. at 2 years old, has a calf, then goes on to be 1100-1300 at 3 years old. If they keep growing past that they will potentially have fertility issues, efficiency issues due to high mature weight, and potentially would create steer calves that would take too long to feed out.

JTM

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Re: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock
« Reply #84 on: May 12, 2016, 11:39:21 PM »
JTM After researching and talking with local people I think Im going to do what you are doing. we are going to breed shorthorn cattle and cross them with Simmental, in hopes of higher weaning weights because that's what most  commerical producers are looking for come fall time. I have not done that yet, but I think I will be headed that way soon if the shorthorn calves don't wean 650-700 pound range. Calving out my first set of shorthorn cows I can honestly say I am very pleased! They are gentle, calve easy, and with the cows I bought I have found they will let any calf in the herd nurse.
My suggestions would be to add in some Black Angus also. This will help you get them solid black in color also over time. Breeding Shorthorns to Simmentals you will get a lot of red cattle. Which is fine if you aren't getting docked for that. We are trying to keep our Shorthorn percentage from 1/4 to 3/4 but also our British influence at 3/8 to 5/8. In this system I look at the Black Angus and Shorthorns as similar ingredients that compliment each other but both are necessary to get the best end result. The Simmental is where you get the real kicker because you get the extra growth but maintain maternal traits. Good luck and don't hesitate to contact Paul or I to talk cattle.

Offline E6 Durhams

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Re: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock
« Reply #85 on: May 13, 2016, 07:38:33 AM »
I have enjoyed reading this thread. I have been around cattle all my life and have a small herd of registered angus and shorthorn. Both breeds have some great individuals but the shorthorn breed will never be competitive in the commercial market, at least in this area, because of the lack of adequate performance records. When I AI angus cows to a high accuracy sire I am fairly sure what I am going to get with few exceptions. The opposite is true with my shorthorn cows. I might have a 70 pound calve from one cow and 110 pound calf out of the same sire the next day. The 70 pound calf might have a 420 pound weaning weight while the 110 pound calf weans at 500 pounds. Commercial buyers won't deal with those headaches. Especially when they can buy an angus bull and not pull a calf all year and have an average weaning weight of 600 pounds. In this area if I can't sell my shorthorn calves as show calves I take as much as a $20 dollar per hundred weight at the barn. I love my shorthorns because of their sweet dispositions and I am trying to find the right combination to improve consistency.

I was talking to an older cattleman one time and was using all the catch phases we use when talking about shorthorns. I used the word femininity. He looked at me like I was crazy and said he had a different description of a feminine cow. He said if a cow has a calf by the time she is two years old, raises a calf every 365 days for the rest of her life, calves unassisted, and weans a 600lb calf she is feminine.

Until we make the breed work for commercial breeders we will never be more than a niche breed.
Dbird, you pretty much hit the nail on the head with the Shorthorn breed. We have no consistency. Some say our diversity is a strength, I say it's a weakness. The only Shorthorn cattle I have found that perform as good or better commercially than Angus are the A&T cattle with the Dover Ranch influence. I am not straying away from that but building upon it in my commercial herd. We are crossbreeding Angus, Simmental, and our commercial Shorthorns to create cows that will outperform the best of the purebred Angus in a commercial cow/calf setting. I feel your frustrations because I was there and learned a lot about the variances of the Shorthorn breed. I like to say there are about 4 or 5 breeds of Shorthorns within the breed... I encourage you to check out my website to learn more about what we are doing and maybe you will retain some hope that you can utilize some Shorthorn genetics in your commercial cattle.


I disagree on no commercial type cattle except for A@T. Saskvalley, Kaper, Waukaru, JSF, Lovings, Studer, XBAR, Cody Nelson, bigelow in Cali, muridale, Paint Valley on and on. These folks have made good strides to me. Unless you've sampled these places thoroughly I don't think you can say nobody has any good commercial stuff to build off of.
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Offline librarian

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Re: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock
« Reply #86 on: May 13, 2016, 08:54:30 AM »
Yes E3, I have similar thoughts. (and don't forget YY, which has a Dover base, or tried and true programs like Lakeside)
There are many outfits out there that have put in many years building  relevant Shorthorn bloodlines from their own blends. I wonder ,sometimes, what happens when one big outfit becomes the "go to" place for real world Shorthorn genetics.  If buyers are don't have time to look further, or dont have the inclination to study, then one strain could overwhelm the perception of what Shorthorns are and how they perform. A&T is good, but its far from being the one and only.
About the growth rate on older genetics- it's not as though its indeterminate growth, the frame size doesn't increase with age, just the mass. Since we were taking about Native strains, it's helpful to have accurate expectations. I have thought it counterintuitive, though, to look to a late maturing bull for early maturing offspring. The upside is bulls of this type tend to live longer.
Again, it's just an observation, not recommendation. When we go back in time to recover things like depth and spring of rib we recover other things as well- some not useful.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 09:05:48 AM by librarian »
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Offline bedrock

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Re: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock
« Reply #87 on: May 13, 2016, 09:22:07 AM »
Id like to hear everyone describe "commercial " type cattle
"Friends encourage friends to use crossbred bulls"

JTM

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Re: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock
« Reply #88 on: May 13, 2016, 10:47:41 AM »
I have enjoyed reading this thread. I have been around cattle all my life and have a small herd of registered angus and shorthorn. Both breeds have some great individuals but the shorthorn breed will never be competitive in the commercial market, at least in this area, because of the lack of adequate performance records. When I AI angus cows to a high accuracy sire I am fairly sure what I am going to get with few exceptions. The opposite is true with my shorthorn cows. I might have a 70 pound calve from one cow and 110 pound calf out of the same sire the next day. The 70 pound calf might have a 420 pound weaning weight while the 110 pound calf weans at 500 pounds. Commercial buyers won't deal with those headaches. Especially when they can buy an angus bull and not pull a calf all year and have an average weaning weight of 600 pounds. In this area if I can't sell my shorthorn calves as show calves I take as much as a $20 dollar per hundred weight at the barn. I love my shorthorns because of their sweet dispositions and I am trying to find the right combination to improve consistency.

I was talking to an older cattleman one time and was using all the catch phases we use when talking about shorthorns. I used the word femininity. He looked at me like I was crazy and said he had a different description of a feminine cow. He said if a cow has a calf by the time she is two years old, raises a calf every 365 days for the rest of her life, calves unassisted, and weans a 600lb calf she is feminine.

Until we make the breed work for commercial breeders we will never be more than a niche breed.
Dbird, you pretty much hit the nail on the head with the Shorthorn breed. We have no consistency. Some say our diversity is a strength, I say it's a weakness. The only Shorthorn cattle I have found that perform as good or better commercially than Angus are the A&T cattle with the Dover Ranch influence. I am not straying away from that but building upon it in my commercial herd. We are crossbreeding Angus, Simmental, and our commercial Shorthorns to create cows that will outperform the best of the purebred Angus in a commercial cow/calf setting. I feel your frustrations because I was there and learned a lot about the variances of the Shorthorn breed. I like to say there are about 4 or 5 breeds of Shorthorns within the breed... I encourage you to check out my website to learn more about what we are doing and maybe you will retain some hope that you can utilize some Shorthorn genetics in your commercial cattle.


I disagree on no commercial type cattle except for A@T. Saskvalley, Kaper, Waukaru, JSF, Lovings, Studer, XBAR, Cody Nelson, bigelow in Cali, muridale, Paint Valley on and on. These folks have made good strides to me. Unless you've sampled these places thoroughly I don't think you can say nobody has any good commercial stuff to build off of.
Brock, if you can speak for all of those programs then good for you. I don't see the data and I have not sample all of them. I can say that I believe Gary Kaper breeds and culls cattle similar to us and maybe Cody Nelson. The main thing I am looking for in a program or an animal is what are their main priorities. Are they taking ultrasound data, if not, they aren't really commercially minded, they are selling eye appeal. Then what is the birthweight average on their herd? Size of their cows in their herd? Udder structure? If there is no real consistency in any of this then I can't feel very confident in sending my Shorthorn program into a direction that I have no idea if it's going to improve those traits. I have great genetics from a lot of good Shorthorn programs in my herd including Leveldale, Muridale, Lakeside, and JSF. These are great cattle when mixed with the Dover lines and stabilized for low birth weight, high marbling, and good ribeyes like A&T has done over the years.

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock
« Reply #89 on: May 13, 2016, 11:53:30 AM »
Dbird, you pretty much hit the nail on the head with the Shorthorn breed. We have no consistency. Some say our diversity is a strength, I say it's a weakness.

 The only Shorthorn cattle I have found that perform as good or better commercially than Angus are the A&T cattle with the Dover Ranch influence.

 I like to say there are about 4 or 5 breeds of Shorthorns within the breed...

  • I definitely agree with you about the diversity being a weakness.  Diversity in bloodlines and scale (size) is a good thing.  Diversity in type is not a good thing.  Form fits function: the ideal beef production phenotype is not subjective.  Just as there is an ideal phenotype for an NFL offensive lineman, there is an ideal phenotype for an efficient beef cow. With all things, there is a MOST ideally suited design
-
  • The lack of consistency is from generations of crossing dissimilar phenotypes. Similar to what you say you're doing with Renegade and Apostle: crossing dissimilar phenotypes and expecting the offspring to go on to breed consistently. You've stated you've already experienced the unsatisfactory results of using SH bulls that were bred by crossing dissimilars -- why you think that same outcome won't present itself in your current situation of crossing dissimilars, I'm not sure.
-
  • I find your comment about the A&T cattle with DRC influence being the 'only' SH cattle to perform as good as Angus to be pretty ironic.  I mean, you do realize that only a quarter of Renegade's OR Captain Rob's pedigree has any DRC influence?  The entire top HALF of Renegade's pedigree is Eionmor breeding.  The entire bottom HALF of Captain Rob's pedigree is Rob Sneed breeding.  Maybe you can shed some light on why you leave out mentioning the predominant influence in those cattle and instead give credit to the A&T or DRC influence. 
-
  • I agree that the DRC influenced cattle are really good cattle.  Quite of few of my cows have DRC breeding within a generation or two. In fact, just last month I bought a group of purebred heifers from Ralph Larson- most of which have a double shot of DRC breeding.  They're good cows absolutely,, but so are their unrelated herd mates- cows out of JSF bred Tsunami sons (Gauge, Troubadour, Red Rebel),  cows out of JSF bred Jazz sons (Proud Jake 49U, Jazz star 73U, Maestro 35U, Master of Jazz 22U) and on and on.  I've had commercial cattle all my life- I know where the bar/standard of commercially acceptability is. These SH's I've mentioned are good cattle too and can and do perform right along side them. 





 

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