Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock

Help Support Steer Planet:

cwa

Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
17
Location
Tennessee (Unfortunately)
garybob said:
Don't have to look twice to see if He's a bull or a heifer calf. Club-calf sires' Denver-pics pale in comparison.

GB

You're exactly right..........Another thing about "Jumbo Leader" is that he has been raised in harsh low-input forage conditions out on that High Desert Land up in Montana,  and he has still been able to maintain his natural thickness without hardly any grain. 

A lot of these club calf animals of today would not be able to survive, and maintain the same type of natural thickness out in those same type of harsh conditions without a bunch of grain.  Animals that are able to function and perform in all types of harsh and challenging conditions with low forage-input are the type of animals that will have longevity. 


 

OH Breeder

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
5,954
Location
Ada, Ohio
cwa said:
Here is the other picture that I have of "Jumbo Leader".   

I'm hoping to get some more copies from Wally. 

Outstanding- I have 5 amps of TPS Coronet in my Tank and 2 of Kinnebar Leader 9th. I would like to see the female that the young bull came out of. I really feel there is a place for the old genetics in todays world.
Thank you CWA.
 

cwa

Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
17
Location
Tennessee (Unfortunately)
Outstanding- I have 5 amps of TPS Coronet in my Tank and 2 of Kinnebar Leader 9th. I would like to see the female that the young bull came out of. I really feel there is a place for the old genetics in todays world.
Thank you CWA.
[/quote]

You're welcome OH Breeder.  :)

I would  like to see the mother of this bull also.  Unfortunately Wally lost her to "Hardware" and he tells me that he doesn't think he ever took a picture of her. 

All I know about his dam is that she was a dark red cow that was sired by, "Newbiggon Jumbo" which was a son of "Mandalong Super Elephant". 


 

garybob

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2007
Messages
1,634
Location
NW Arkansas
cwa said:
garybob said:
Don't have to look twice to see if He's a bull or a heifer calf. Club-calf sires' Denver-pics pale in comparison.

GB

You're exactly right..........Another thing about "Jumbo Leader" is that he has been raised in harsh low-input forage conditions out on that High Desert Land up in Montana,  and he has still been able to maintain his natural thickness without hardly any grain. 

A lot of these club calf animals of today would not be able to survive, and maintain the same type of natural thickness out in those same type of harsh conditions without a bunch of grain.  Animals that are able to function and perform in all types of harsh and challenging conditions with low forage-input are the type of animals that will have longevity. 
I'm just glad somebody else can say the same things I do, about this breed, and not get castrated.
Contrary to popular opinion on this message board, I love this breed. Ever since I was old enough to dump range cubes on my Pa-paw's place. My first registered Shorthorn, "Estelle", was a "project calf" in 1985. Hard to understand why the breed, as a whole, has lost its desire to be an active player in the grand scheme of things.

GB
 

OH Breeder

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
5,954
Location
Ada, Ohio
garybob said:
cwa said:
garybob said:
Don't have to look twice to see if He's a bull or a heifer calf. Club-calf sires' Denver-pics pale in comparison.

GB

You're exactly right..........Another thing about "Jumbo Leader" is that he has been raised in harsh low-input forage conditions out on that High Desert Land up in Montana,  and he has still been able to maintain his natural thickness without hardly any grain. 

A lot of these club calf animals of today would not be able to survive, and maintain the same type of natural thickness out in those same type of harsh conditions without a bunch of grain.  Animals that are able to function and perform in all types of harsh and challenging conditions with low forage-input are the type of animals that will have longevity. 
I'm just glad somebody else can say the same things I do, about this breed, and not get castrated.
Contrary to popular opinion on this message board, I love this breed. Ever since I was old enough to dump range cubes on my Pa-paw's place. My first registered Shorthorn, "Estelle", was a "project calf" in 1985. Hard to understand why the breed, as a whole, has lost its desire to be an active player in the grand scheme of things.

GB

We don't have harsh conditions where I live. We have lots of grain and usually great pastures. I grain very little but because I lack a ton of pasture I still do alittle. If you want to breed for challenge harsh conditions great. But as I whole, I have show calves. It is my hobby and not my fulll time job. I think what most folks are saying GB is enjoy what you have. If you want cattle to survive on prickely pears etc then that is your focus. But if you aren't thats okay to. That is what makes this industy so fun to me. You can be involved with cattle in MANY different ways.
 

OH Breeder

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
5,954
Location
Ada, Ohio
showsteerdlux said:
OHB, hows the hay situation in Ohio?
I brought this up a few months back and some folks felt it was fine. In my little part of the world, lots of guys sent stock to market. Our prices dropped considerabley. But, because I cut my herd in half my demand was greatly reduced. This is also what I suspect is happened around the area. Most of the folks that I have talked with cut there herds hard. We baled 30 acres of corn stalks, I am down to my last 18 rounds and am also supplementing cornstalks to stretch it. Hay season is just around the corner. I should have plenty of cornstalks to get through.
Hay still running high.
Locally 225 a ton for horse quality hay
            7-9.00 small squares
            150 ton grass rounds
most want 2 plus dollar a mile to deliver from any distance. Unfortunately I am more dependant on delivery due to health restrictions as well farm help.
 

garybob

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2007
Messages
1,634
Location
NW Arkansas
OH Breeder said:
garybob said:
cwa said:
garybob said:
Don't have to look twice to see if He's a bull or a heifer calf. Club-calf sires' Denver-pics pale in comparison.

GB

You're exactly right..........Another thing about "Jumbo Leader" is that he has been raised in harsh low-input forage conditions out on that High Desert Land up in Montana,  and he has still been able to maintain his natural thickness without hardly any grain. 

A lot of these club calf animals of today would not be able to survive, and maintain the same type of natural thickness out in those same type of harsh conditions without a bunch of grain.  Animals that are able to function and perform in all types of harsh and challenging conditions with low forage-input are the type of animals that will have longevity. 
I'm just glad somebody else can say the same things I do, about this breed, and not get castrated.
Contrary to popular opinion on this message board, I love this breed. Ever since I was old enough to dump range cubes on my Pa-paw's place. My first registered Shorthorn, "Estelle", was a "project calf" in 1985. Hard to understand why the breed, as a whole, has lost its desire to be an active player in the grand scheme of things.

GB

We don't have harsh conditions where I live. We have lots of grain and usually great pastures. I grain very little but because I lack a ton of pasture I still do alittle. If you want to breed for challenge harsh conditions great. But as I whole, I have show calves. It is my hobby and not my fulll time job. I think what most folks are saying GB is enjoy what you have. If you want cattle to survive on prickely pears etc then that is your focus. But if you aren't thats okay to. That is what makes this industy so fun to me. You can be involved with cattle in MANY different ways.
The problem starts, OH Breeder, when someone takes a sire-candidate raised in the environment in which you described (similiarly raised bulls of any breed, not just Shorthorns) from, let's say North-central Missouri(gently-rolling, loamy soil, corn silage,etc) to even Southern Missouri a distance of only 175 miles. It's a sad sight when they hit the Red Clay, Rocks, and steep slopes. Man, those "pretty boys" seriously "melt" (like the "bad guys" from Raiders of the Lost Ark).

I know this, because my cousin married a guy from the area around Rolla, MO. He bought some bulls from "Circle-You-know-Who".

GB
 

OH Breeder

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
5,954
Location
Ada, Ohio
[/quote]

We don't have harsh conditions where I live. We have lots of grain and usually great pastures. I grain very little but because I lack a ton of pasture I still do alittle. If you want to breed for challenge harsh conditions great. But as I whole, I have show calves. It is my hobby and not my fulll time job. I think what most folks are saying GB is enjoy what you have. If you want cattle to survive on prickely pears etc then that is your focus. But if you aren't thats okay to. That is what makes this industy so fun to me. You can be involved with cattle in MANY different ways.
[/quote]The problem starts, OH Breeder, when someone takes a sire-candidate raised in the environment in which you described (similiarly raised bulls of any breed, not just Shorthorns) from, let's say North-central Missouri(gently-rolling, loamy soil, corn silage,etc) to even Southern Missouri a distance of only 175 miles. It's a sad sight when they hit the Red Clay, Rocks, and steep slopes. Man, those "pretty boys" seriously "melt" (like the "bad guys" from Raiders of the Lost Ark).

I know this, because my cousin married a guy from the area around Rolla, MO. He bought some bulls from "Circle-You-know-Who".

GB
[/quote]
What I say to that. Shame on them for not investigating the conditions that they stock are raised in. I always want to know how the cattle i buy are raised. Pasture grain etc. I think it gives you an indication on future performance. If you have a big ol tub and they came from great pastures and some grain here and there. The change in enviroment can cause any animal to crash. I am no authority by no means. Just my opinion. If I were looking for cattle in your conditions I would look for breeders in that area. Stock that was thriving in your location. Didn't we talk about this a few months back. Enviromental changes and cattle.

PS, maybe I am not too bright, who is the circle of you know who. You can PM if you want. I missed that.
 

cwa

Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
17
Location
Tennessee (Unfortunately)

We don't have harsh conditions where I live. We have lots of grain and usually great pastures. I grain very little but because I lack a ton of pasture I still do alittle. If you want to breed for challenge harsh conditions great. But as I whole, I have show calves. It is my hobby and not my fulll time job. I think what most folks are saying GB is enjoy what you have. If you want cattle to survive on prickely pears etc then that is your focus. But if you aren't thats okay to. That is what makes this industy so fun to me. You can be involved with cattle in MANY different ways.
[/quote]The problem starts, OH Breeder, when someone takes a sire-candidate raised in the environment in which you described (similiarly raised bulls of any breed, not just Shorthorns) from, let's say North-central Missouri(gently-rolling, loamy soil, corn silage,etc) to even Southern Missouri a distance of only 175 miles. It's a sad sight when they hit the Red Clay, Rocks, and steep slopes. Man, those "pretty boys" seriously "melt" (like the "bad guys" from Raiders of the Lost Ark).

I know this, because my cousin married a guy from the area around Rolla, MO. He bought some bulls from "Circle-You-know-Who".

GB
[/quote]
What I say to that. Shame on them for not investigating the conditions that they stock are raised in. I always want to know how the cattle i buy are raised. Pasture grain etc. I think it gives you an indication on future performance. If you have a big ol tub and they came from great pastures and some grain here and there. The change in enviroment can cause any animal to crash. I am no authority by no means. Just my opinion. If I were looking for cattle in your conditions I would look for breeders in that area. Stock that was thriving in your location. Didn't we talk about this a few months back. Enviromental changes and cattle.

PS, maybe I am not too bright, who is the circle of you know who. You can PM if you want. I missed that.
[/quote]

Hi OH Breeder,

I hear what you are saying, however a good sound, and functional animal should be able to adapt to all environments no matter what the conditions are.  That same animal should also have good sound feet and legs.  Now when we talk about the productivity of a good sound and functional cow, she should be able to produce and raise a healthy calf every single year all the way up until she is at least 14 years old.

I do not claim to be an authority either, and I'm not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, however I must admit that I am not too crazy about a lot of the main stream shorthorn animals that are being produced today.  Too many of them are post legged, and a lot of these nice pretty show animals are not what I call good sound, and functional animals.  I'm afraid too many shorthorn breeders over the years have gotten away from the genetics that made the breed great.  The Shorthorn Breed has always been known as, "The Maternal Breed", and it seems that there are now too many Terminal Animals out there. 

As far as club calves go, what I can't understand is why both the commercial breeders and the show breeders cannot get on the same page.  I'm all for showing cattle, however at the same time I remember back in the days when club calves were also functional unlike most of the club calves of today.  Why can't we go back to raising the same types of animals that were being produced back around the mid/late 70's?  Those animals worked. 

I realize what I am saying may not be very popular with a lot of folks who raise show cattle, however I'm afraid that the types of animals that are being produced today is hurting the Shorthorn Breed more than it is helping it.  The other thing that I find ridiculous is the high emphasis on hair.  I remember back when they use to shear these animals close, and they balled their tails.  Now I can live without the balled tails, however I don't understand why hair is so important.  When I go to a steak house, I do not order hair, I order meat. 

I guess all in all I do not subscribe to most of these popular show animals, nor do I subscribe to the more popular mainstream genetics of today.  It's no wonder anytime I go to a stockyard or anytime I talk to a commercial breeder that they start bashing the Shorthorn Breed.  The Shorthorn Breed has always been known as a maternal breed, and until the commercial people and the show people get on the same page, it will continue to hurt the Shorthorn Breed.  There is no reason why Shorthorn Show Cattle cannot be functional like they use to be years ago.

In closing, I will admit once again that I do not claim to be an authority either, and I will admit that I am not an active breeder.  However I have worked with Shorthorn Cattle in the past, and I have remained a huge fan of the breed over the years ever since I was 11 years old back in 1981.  I base all of what I have said on my research along with talking to commercial breeders, and other Shorthorn Breeders across the country who are more qualified to say what I have said, and a lot of those same folks feel the same way that I do in regards to this matter.  If I have offended anyone it was not my intention to do so.  I may not be an active cattle man/breeder, however I still do care a lot about the Shorthorn Breed regardless.  I personally do not think the breed is going in the right direction, and no matter how much money is being made off of these more popular animals of today, if I were an active breeder I would still rather raise the kind of cattle that are highly functional, instead of sacrificing the breed for the sake of profit.  Once again I apologize if my words have offended anyone.  It's nothing personal, however at the same time I do not apologize for what I have said about the direction of the breed, and the kind of animals that are being produced today.  I am very passionate about this subject, and I take this kind of thing very serious. 





 

Doc

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 13, 2007
Messages
3,636
Location
Cottontown, Tennessee
cwa, I hate that I'm going to have to disagree with someone in their first few posts but I am. To begin with I've got to agree with Ohio B, if your conditions are that extraordinary than you need to do a little homework first. I don't care what breed you have , you can't take a cow from say Devils Lake , MN to Baton Rouge , LA & expect it to prosper. You may have a better chance with a young calf that has a chance to adapt as it gets older. Breeders will by a bull & then take it home & let it adapt to their enviroment 1st before they ever think about turning it out to breed cows. The challenges can be anything like going to a high altitude area with lower oxygen, to having to travel 5 miles once a day to get water , to just poorer grass. Smart breeders know it & plan for it.
As far as not suscribing to todays genetics that is your right , but depending on what you're wanting to accomplish, sticking with bulls like your Ayatollahs' , Wagon Masters' & Sevilles' won't get you to far today. Using some of todays genetics is called Progress.
I geuss the biggest issue I have is when someone that professes their love for a breed & then turns around and does nothing but bash it. You talk about all the commercial guys & stockyard guys bashing them, maybe you need to come to my part of the world & talk to some of those same type guys who still really like them.  JMO  ;D  Oh &  (welcome)
 

cwa

Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
17
Location
Tennessee (Unfortunately)
Doc said:
cwa, I hate that I'm going to have to disagree with someone in their first few posts but I am. To begin with I've got to agree with Ohio B, if your conditions are that extraordinary than you need to do a little homework first. I don't care what breed you have , you can't take a cow from say Devils Lake , MN to Baton Rouge , LA & expect it to prosper. You may have a better chance with a young calf that has a chance to adapt as it gets older. Breeders will by a bull & then take it home & let it adapt to their enviroment 1st before they ever think about turning it out to breed cows. The challenges can be anything like going to a high altitude area with lower oxygen, to having to travel 5 miles once a day to get water , to just poorer grass. Smart breeders know it & plan for it.
As far as not suscribing to todays genetics that is your right , but depending on what you're wanting to accomplish, sticking with bulls like your Ayatollahs' , Wagon Masters' & Sevilles' won't get you to far today. Using some of todays genetics is called Progress.
I geuss the biggest issue I have is when someone that professes their love for a breed & then turns around and does nothing but bash it. You talk about all the commercial guys & stockyard guys bashing them, maybe you need to come to my part of the world & talk to some of those same type guys who still really like them.  JMO  ;D  Oh &  (welcome)

Doc,

Thanks for the welcome, and your input on the matter.  I realize you have been around the breed for a very long time, and I understand what you are saying about cattle from certain conditions.  However I am not bashing the breed.  I am disagreeing with the direction that the breed has gone in.  I'm also sure that you are aware that I am not the only one who feels this way, and that includes some actual shorthorn breeders who also do not subscribe to the direction that the breed has gone in.  I have gotten a lot of my information and research from those who still raise good functional and sound Shorthorn Cattle like the ones that I have been describing.  Just because I do not like certain Shorthorn Animals does not mean that I do not like the whole Shorthorn Breed in general.  There are some newer bulls out there that I do like such as "NPS Durango 774 CBH",  and your bull "Target" along with a few others including some of the bulls down in Australia and up in Canada. 

Also, when I speak of using older genetics, I am not talking about using genetics from bulls that had massive frame scores and heavy birth weights like the 3 bulls that you mentioned which were mainly popular back during the 80's.  I wouldn't even dream of using a cow killer like Seville these days.  You have misunderstood me when I talk about older genetics.  The older genetics that I am talking about are bulls such as TPS Coronet Leader 21st, Mandalong Super Flag, Canadian Image, Clipper King USA, Boa Kae Royal Oak, Kenmar President 26A,  and Weston Dynamo. 

When you speak of using newer genetics and making progress, if more breeders would do some flushes combining some of these rare, older, and proven genetics that I just mentioned, that would produce newer genetics from the older genetics which would also be progress.  I hate to sound harsh, however due to the fact that there is now a problem with TH and PHA along with post legged animals I really do not see a whole lot of progress with the breed of today compared to the breed of yesterday, and when I talk about Shorthorn Cattle of yesterday, I am talking about cattle that were being produced back in the mid 70's.  I'm not talking about Shorthorn Cattle that were produced back in the 80's or the 90's. 

Once again I will ask why can't the commercial breeders and the show breeders get on the same page, and work together to benefit the whole entire shorthorn breed? 

As far as your part of the world is concerned thanks for the invite Doc, however I will stick with my part of the world, and the guys who still like the type of cattle that I am talking about.  These guys may be more lower profiled, however there are still  some Shorthorn Breeders out there who still raise the type of Animals that I have been talking about.  There are actually a lot more of them out there than what most people think.  ;D






 

Cowfarmer65

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 14, 2007
Messages
201
Location
3060 South McNaughton Rd. Douglas, ON. Can.
Hi everyone,

It's been a while since I've been on. Busy with the job and farm. I have a Four Point Major bull calf on the ground out of an awesome two year old Laredo daughter from Matlock. I'm really impressed with him. So Justintime. Keep in touch, you might get a chance to see him in Toronto this fall.
 

Cowfarmer65

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 14, 2007
Messages
201
Location
3060 South McNaughton Rd. Douglas, ON. Can.
Hey Guys,
One more thought before I go.
Anyone from another breed that ever bashes Shorthorns and I'm within ear shot, politely gets told that they should trace the origin of their own breed. Guess what? They're going to find Shorthorn genetics in there likely. Perhaps we should be using that in our advertising. 

" Shorthorns. The breed that started them all. "
:)
Hav a good one.
 

cwa

Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
17
Location
Tennessee (Unfortunately)
Here is a picture of the "Idea Shorthorn Cow" that I am talking about. 

This cow was born back in 1979.  Her name was, "Stone Oak RD Lady Linda 6Lx" .   She was sired by a bull called, "Rodak Diablo", which was a son of "Weston Dynamo" which was a bull that was produced by "Martin Nold", who was one of the greatest Shorthorn Breeders ever to produce Shorthorn Cattle IMO.

Notice how correct this cow is.  She is moderate framed, she has plenty of depth, lots of length, a good udder, and plenty of feminity.  You can tell that this cow was bred for performance.   

This is the type of cow that I was talking about.  She is a fine example of the kind of product that I would be wanting to produce today if I were a Shorthorn Breeder.   

 






 

Attachments

  • ideal.jpg
    ideal.jpg
    109.7 KB · Views: 444

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,639
Location
Hollister, CA
i like her.  she's got a nice body dimension for her cannon bone length.  would like to see her a little bit more from the side to see how really long her hip is and where her femur is for her stride.  i like her flat shoulder and the way she comes out of her withers through her neck and the way her whole neck looks triangulated rather than the same thickness from the shoulder to the throatlatch without being choke throated or goose fronted.  i would probably put more hair on her tail.  how many calves did she have?  with her shoulders, i bet they just popped out.  her shoulders really disguise her true dimension.  flat well laid in shoulders somehow are in short supply.
 

cwa

Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
17
Location
Tennessee (Unfortunately)
Yes, she is a fantastic looking female. 

Another friend of mine found this picture in an old sale catalog and sent it to me.  He was really big on this cow. 

I don't know how many calves she had to be honest. 

 

Doc

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 13, 2007
Messages
3,636
Location
Cottontown, Tennessee
garybob said:
Doc, You never saw me post anything about those 3 cow-killers, either, did you?
  GB, I don't know where that came from!!
  To you & cwa both, if you don't like todays genetics that's fine. I just really wish that y'all wouldn't get on here & act like there isn't a bull or cow worth a D_ _ _, unless they are son or grandson of a bull from 1960 thru 1980. There are some durn good genetics out there today!! If those cattle had been perfect we would still be breeding cattle exactly like that. But instead we are striving to breed a better animal. I agree that some of those genetics will compliment our cattle today, but some of those genetics shouldn't be propagated just because they're 40 years old & still in your tank. I raise Shorthorns, have raised Shorthorns for 36 years & hope to raise them for another 36 years, so when y'all continue to beat that dead horse about how todays genetics are the ruin of the breed ,yea I kinda take it personal. To me we get more respect on this board from people who raise other breeds than a couple of guys who say they love Shorthorn cattle.JMO ;D
 

NHR

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2007
Messages
683
Location
Rice TX
That cow in the photo looks just like my Trump granddaughters in my pasture. Go figure! I must be on the right path to genetic Zen... (clapping)
 
Top