Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock

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aj

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western kansas
I think the shorthorns and angus are guilty of chasing epd,s. We all are shooting for yearling epd's of 40 in the shorthorns and 100 in the Black angus. These are ultimate cattle and not optimal cattle. I also think that newcomers come to the breed and people are told what the good cattle are and they don't learn what the good cattle are. The optimum commercial type is way away from the showring type.In the shorthorns everybody chases the same genetics to win the shows. I think the 70's cattle were more optimum in type commercially. Optimum cattle don't have 700 pound weaning weights in my opinion. My measure of commercial optimum is pounds weaned per cow exposed. The showring optimum is $ received per flush offered for sale. I think the old big gene and leader 21st are a step back to commercial optimums. But heaven forbid they are not plus 40 yearling epd's. There is a difference between maximum production and optimum production. I think the optimums are really going to change with 6 $ corn and 150$ alfalfa and 3 $ gasoline also. jmo sodhousecattleco.com ;D
 

justintime

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cwa...... I really do not think that anyone should have offended you by their comments on here . It certainly was not my intent anyways, and I re read the threads and some people stated they did not agree with you but that is about it. There is no reason anyone should have to agree with anyone else, and as long as we just say that without personal attacks , that is just fine. Personally, that is what I like about this board. That is how we all broaden our minds as we express our opinions and try to see any topic from some one else's perspective.

In my last post I tried to say to you, that , if you do not like what is happening in the show ring, then select the genetics you want to use and "do your own thing".You are perfectly free to do this... and their a many other breeders who totally agree with you. I think the opportunities right now in the Shorthorn breed are absolutely tremendous. I have never seen a time when so many breeders were looking for some different genetics... either new or old. Quitting seems like a very drastic move to make as a result of a few comments on here that I do not think were meant to offend anyone.

There has always been a " show " component in the Shorthorn breed and there has always been a show component to almost every breed. Some breeds like the Red Angus have not gone as far in this direction, but they are also moving more in this direction.Just yesterday, I spoke with a Red Angus breeder who told me about the tremendous National show the Red Angus had in the US.  Shows do serve a purpose, as they allow breeders to compare their breeding stock. Take a look back at issues of the Shorthorn World from the 60s and early 70s. In the 60s virtually every page of advertising listed a herd sire that either came from Louada or were sired by a son of a Louada bull. In the 70s it was the Lancers and later the Ayatollah cattle that predominated, as everyone everyone chased sheer size. This trend took a few years to vaporize, as people found that they some of these cattle were just as bad as some of the small dumpy cattle of previous generations... only for different reasons. I do think there is more sanity in what is happening today that in any other era in my lifetime, even though there are some bloodlines that I do not think will work in my operation.

I  think we would be in a much worse place if the Shorthorn breed did not have a very strong show orientation especially in the Juniors. That being said, this does not mean that I agree with some of the cattle that are winning... just like i did not agree with everything that went on in every other decade that I have been involved in this breed. I think that one of the major problems we all have is that we tend to paint all cattle from certain bloodlines as being bad. I have heard many people say ( and read it on here in some posts) that "the Trump cattle are bad". That simply is not the case. Some of these cattle are awesome and  could work in any operation. The Ayatollah cattle were dumped on by some, in the same fashion. That simply was not true either. I still maintain that one of the very best females I have ever seen was a direct daughter of Ayatollah. She was a thick , deep sided and easy fleshing as any female I have ever seen.

As for cancelling your subscription in Shorthorn Country, I do not understand what good that does for you. Now you have lost the opportunity to even see if new genetics are being offered. I do not know of any rule that says that you can only advertise  cattle that can be shown in this magazine. I think everyone, including the people who only have Shorthorns to show, would be interested in seeing some people advertise who offer a different product. Persoanlly, I try to advertise in Shorthorn Country on a fairly regular basis.... and I go to one show a year. I would not be able to even feed myself from the revenue I get from selling show cattle.
I sell breeding stock and I sell almost all my bulls to commercial producers. I have had to work very hard to develop any markets, and it has certainly not been an easy road. There have been many more hard times than easy times. It would have been easy to just walk away.. either to another breed or to another job. I have had many opportunities to do both of these things. I am not bragging, I am just saying that it is entirely up to you to find your own niche in this business and if you are absolutely convinced that the breed is going in the wrong direction.... you certainly DO NOT HAVE TO FOLLOW. Set out to produce a better product. If you are convinced that some of the cattle from previous decades  will work for you, then use these genetics. There is lots of 50 year old semen sitting in tanks if you look for it. As I said in a post last night.... just make sure you study your lessons, and know as much about some of these cattle as you can. There were some that would be excellent today... there were some that we really never have to see again. As shortyisqueen said in her last post, I can still remember when we operated our feedlot and I was buying as many Shorthorn cattle as I could .... and being discounted at the packing plant ... for a 1150 lb animal with an 8 inch ribeye and excessive backfat. This happened more than I care to remember!! None of us need to go back there... but you can if you wnat to, as no one is going to stop you.

So if you don't like where the breed is going, be willing to select the genetics you think will "build a better Shorthorn". If you don't like the advertising in Shorthorn Country , then consider advertising your own herd, or try to convince more people to promote cattle that work in the commercial industry to advertise in it. As I said, I think there are many, many breeders who would be interested in what you are doing. I am sure that Shorthorn Country would be more than pleased to help you design your ad and they certainly would accept it.

I have gone much longer than I ever intended here.. and I apologize for doing this again! I guess my point is it is totally up to each of us to develop our own couse in life, whether that be in our occupation, our cattle, our families, our communities. If you do not like how you see happening, be willing to find the change you think will improve the situation. The easy thing to do is either just quit ... or to continue to just complain about the problem. Unfortunately, all this will do is give you ulcers and undue stress in your life. It is totally your decision which road you take.

 

NHR

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Jun 12, 2007
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Rice TX
I think I need to add the following to the title:

Warning - thread has been Hi-Jacked!  ;)

I did not start this topic to get into them versus us conversations or vice versa. Just enjoy the breed and be happy with your operation and what you are producing. If you cant be happy with your operation then make the changes to make yourself happy.

Work to achieve your own "Genetic Zen!" That is my motto this year.

PS - Hug your momma or kids or significant other today... O0

 

DL

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Jan 29, 2007
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NHR said:
I think I need to add the following to the title:

Warning - thread has been Hi-Jacked!  ;)

I did not start this topic to get into them versus us conversations or vice versa. Just enjoy the breed and be happy with your operation and what you are producing. If you cant be happy with your operation then make the changes to make yourself happy.

Work to achieve your own "Genetic Zen!" That is my motto this year.

PS - Hug your momma or kids or significant other today... O0

[size=10pt]WOW GENETIC ZEN!
I gotta love it.
How about immaculate mutation?
[/size]
 

aj

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Jul 5, 2006
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western kansas
DL...have you heard anything about the pha status of nobody's fool or vortec? I'm just kidding. (argue)
 

DL

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aj said:
DL...have you heard anything about the pha status of nobody's fool or vortec? I'm just kidding. (argue)

aj - did you see the eclipse? was it as big at your farm as ours? haven't heard a thing but you know you will be the first person I would tell if I heard  (thumbsup)
 

sjleppert18

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May 28, 2011
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6
Justintime,

What are the names of your bulls you have?  I have a few Native cows I would like to outcross with older genetics.
 

vanridge

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Jan 26, 2011
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Manitoba, Canada
I'm gonna put my 2 cents in because I have trouble keeping my mouth shut.  ;D First, we are relatively new to the shorthorn breed and from what I can tell around here, things are starting to turn around for the good of the breed. Marketing, advertising etc is starting to see results. Also, I think todays cattle market is starting to buy good steers no matter what color. It's a small start but its there. Second, from all the posts I've read I have come to the conclusion that  JIT will not say anything negative unless he is sure. Third, EVERY breed has their "functional" cattle and their show cattle. Go to any show and you will see a  gap between the two. It's part of life.  It is part of the cattle business beef as well as dairy. We can't change it and we don't have to.   You breed for your purposes and I will breed for mine. Doesn't make you right, doesn't make me wrong. For us, the almighty dollar has a lot to say about how are cows are gonna be, if they are not profitable then they are not good cattle. Now, for a quick EPD question. How important is the calving ease EPD's that are listed especially in the angus breed. If you have a bull recommended only for cows, is it really only for cows, how accurate are these things?
 

Okotoks

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vanridge said:
I'm gonna put my 2 cents in because I have trouble keeping my mouth shut.  ;D First, we are relatively new to the shorthorn breed and from what I can tell around here, things are starting to turn around for the good of the breed. Marketing, advertising etc is starting to see results. Also, I think todays cattle market is starting to buy good steers no matter what color. It's a small start but its there. Second, from all the posts I've read I have come to the conclusion that  JIT will not say anything negative unless he is sure. Third, EVERY breed has their "functional" cattle and their show cattle. Go to any show and you will see a  gap between the two. It's part of life.  It is part of the cattle business beef as well as dairy. We can't change it and we don't have to.   You breed for your purposes and I will breed for mine. Doesn't make you right, doesn't make me wrong. For us, the almighty dollar has a lot to say about how are cows are gonna be, if they are not profitable then they are not good cattle. Now, for a quick EPD question. How important is the calving ease EPD's that are listed especially in the angus breed. If you have a bull recommended only for cows, is it really only for cows, how accurate are these things?
It would seem there is a great deal of skeptism about EPD accuracies. I have found them of some use within my own herd but I have to say it is only one tool and they are pretty useless if the animal is not functional. I was told by Cecil Staples that if he had to feed them he at least wanted to enjoy looking at them while doing so. I don't think I would enjoy an animal that was ugly no matter how good the EPD's.
 

OH Breeder

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Feb 14, 2007
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5,954
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Ada, Ohio
NHR said:
Garybob, I know you will like this.   (thumbsup)

http://www.rlshorthorns.com/index.html

Click on the Native Breeding Stock link.

Roy Lovaas has gathered some impressive "Native Shorthorn Semen". I am definately interested in this.

I would like to start a seperate project on my place to produce Native Shorthorn Genetics. This is a very good idea to preserve the genetics.



Really enjoy looking at the Choice Mint x Cherry heifer. I think she is really special. Something about her design that I find very appealing. I would bet she is going to be fairly easy fleshing and pretty compact. one of my favorites on the native stock page.

 

mark tenenbaum

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Mar 23, 2009
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Virginia Sometimes Iowa and Kansas
cwa said:
itk said:
Deerpark Improver was born in 1972, the first cases of TH were documented in a Canadian cow herd. So TH is not some recent club calf problem it has been around for along time it is just recently discovered and is just as prevalent in the commercial sector of the breed as it is the "club calf"  side it is just better documented in the purebred side. PHA was introduced with the formation of the appendix program in the 80's so again it is not something new. The appendix program was a necessary evil to help booster the finances of the association. It also helped us change the type of cattle we were producing at the time so we could stay competitive in the cattle industry. If not for the appendix program the breed might still be trying to downsize our cows.

I personally feel that the purebred industry and commercial industry in our breed are very similar as far as type with BW being the main difference. Look at the success that cattle that originated from Keith Lauer and Marty Loving are having in the showring. I think that there is not much functionality in a Outrageous X DV X Vegas cross cow, but I don't think any of us shorthorn breeders on this site have cows bred that way or would want a cow with that pedigree. I would consider this a club calf momma with a shorthorn pedigree. I would expect to see a cow like that at a club calf breeders place but I don't think that you can lump purebred breeders and club calf breeders with a few shorthorn cows in the same category.

I enjoy seeing cows with old school and outcross pedigrees as much as the next guy. Still I think that bulls like Mission, Osage, Final Solution, JPJ, Aviator and anything that Dereck Jungels breeds can sire calves that will fit all sectors of the cattle industry. Commercial acceptability is a breed wide problem and is not the fault of the purebred sector but of the breed as a whole. The problem stems from the fact that there is a bias toward black cattle today and shorthorns were the last breed to go small when markets changed. It is not Trump's, or Vortec's or Cates or Cagwins fault.

I am fully aware of the TH coming from the "Deerpark Improver" bull, however TH and PHA did not come from Native or Dual Purpose Shorthorns. 

Here is a question that an older breeder who does not have a computer who has been breeding Shorthorn Cattle for over 50 years wanted me to ask you guys:

If the Shorthorn Breed is making progress, how come it is now #11 or #12 on the ladder of breeds of popularity?  He told me that he remembers back when the breed years ago was #2 or #3. 

Plus the registrations have dropped down over the years.    ///I remember when Shorthorns were number three-but there were only 3 breeds out there:Angus,Hereford,and Shorthorn-this is not a new scenario.
 

itk

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May 6, 2007
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KS
Three years later we are still having the same arguments. No wonder the breed can't make progress on real issues. More importantly I still look like an educated, logical, voice of reason. How has the breed survived without me ;D? Thanks Mark sometimes I forget my own genius.
 

Okotoks

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Aug 17, 2010
Messages
3,083
OH Breeder said:
NHR said:
Garybob, I know you will like this.   (thumbsup)

http://www.rlshorthorns.com/index.html

Click on the Native Breeding Stock link.

Roy Lovaas has gathered some impressive "Native Shorthorn Semen". I am definately interested in this.

I would like to start a seperate project on my place to produce Native Shorthorn Genetics. This is a very good idea to preserve the genetics.



Really enjoy looking at the Choice Mint x Cherry heifer. I think she is really special. Something about her design that I find very appealing. I would bet she is going to be fairly easy fleshing and pretty compact. one of my favorites on the native stock page.
I love the looks of that heifer also. Is there any up to date information on how she turned out?
The first show I ever watched was the Calgary Bull Sale show where he was named Grand Champion. The judge placed the class leaving Choice Mint to the last when he pulled him into first place. The crowd was on edge thinking the bull had been dumped!
 

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knabe

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Hollister, CA
cwa said:
justintime said:
GaryBob.... I got my boy baby this morning. A TPS Coronet Leader 21 X Shadybrook Presto 73G.... 88 lb, polled and red with only a few white hairs in his tail. I was expecting more roan but the cow is solid red. I will try to get some pictures posted on here in the next few days.

Hi folks,

Check out this one year old son of "TPS Coronet Leader 21st"!


any update on this bull?
 

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librarian

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Knox County Nebraska
I was looking at the same picture day before yesterday wondering the same thing!
And some erratica:
The title on the old post Native-Shorthorn bulls from 50s and 60s has been edited and changed to Bulls. There is a lot of good information in this thread.
http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/native-bulls-from-50's-and-60's/msg412292/#msg412292
That poster has changed his name more than once. This can make it difficult to research old posts because they get lost.

 

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Rio Grande - RS - Brazil
cwa said:
justintime said:
GaryBob.... I got my boy baby this morning. A TPS Coronet Leader 21 X Shadybrook Presto 73G.... 88 lb, polled and red with only a few white hairs in his tail. I was expecting more roan but the cow is solid red. I will try to get some pictures posted on here in the next few days.

Hi folks,

Check out this one year old son of "TPS Coronet Leader 21st"!


Like him!
Old genetics is the new for future!
;D
 

Dbirdsong

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Feb 18, 2014
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I have enjoyed reading this thread. I have been around cattle all my life and have a small herd of registered angus and shorthorn. Both breeds have some great individuals but the shorthorn breed will never be competitive in the commercial market, at least in this area, because of the lack of adequate performance records. When I AI angus cows to a high accuracy sire I am fairly sure what I am going to get with few exceptions. The opposite is true with my shorthorn cows. I might have a 70 pound calve from one cow and 110 pound calf out of the same sire the next day. The 70 pound calf might have a 420 pound weaning weight while the 110 pound calf weans at 500 pounds. Commercial buyers won't deal with those headaches. Especially when they can buy an angus bull and not pull a calf all year and have an average weaning weight of 600 pounds. In this area if I can't sell my shorthorn calves as show calves I take as much as a $20 dollar per hundred weight at the barn. I love my shorthorns because of their sweet dispositions and I am trying to find the right combination to improve consistency.

I was talking to an older cattleman one time and was using all the catch phases we use when talking about shorthorns. I used the word femininity. He looked at me like I was crazy and said he had a different description of a feminine cow. He said if a cow has a calf by the time she is two years old, raises a calf every 365 days for the rest of her life, calves unassisted, and weans a 600lb calf she is feminine.

Until we make the breed work for commercial breeders we will never be more than a niche breed.
 
J

JTM

Guest
Dbirdsong said:
I have enjoyed reading this thread. I have been around cattle all my life and have a small herd of registered angus and shorthorn. Both breeds have some great individuals but the shorthorn breed will never be competitive in the commercial market, at least in this area, because of the lack of adequate performance records. When I AI angus cows to a high accuracy sire I am fairly sure what I am going to get with few exceptions. The opposite is true with my shorthorn cows. I might have a 70 pound calve from one cow and 110 pound calf out of the same sire the next day. The 70 pound calf might have a 420 pound weaning weight while the 110 pound calf weans at 500 pounds. Commercial buyers won't deal with those headaches. Especially when they can buy an angus bull and not pull a calf all year and have an average weaning weight of 600 pounds. In this area if I can't sell my shorthorn calves as show calves I take as much as a $20 dollar per hundred weight at the barn. I love my shorthorns because of their sweet dispositions and I am trying to find the right combination to improve consistency.

I was talking to an older cattleman one time and was using all the catch phases we use when talking about shorthorns. I used the word femininity. He looked at me like I was crazy and said he had a different description of a feminine cow. He said if a cow has a calf by the time she is two years old, raises a calf every 365 days for the rest of her life, calves unassisted, and weans a 600lb calf she is feminine.

Until we make the breed work for commercial breeders we will never be more than a niche breed.
Dbird, you pretty much hit the nail on the head with the Shorthorn breed. We have no consistency. Some say our diversity is a strength, I say it's a weakness. The only Shorthorn cattle I have found that perform as good or better commercially than Angus are the A&T cattle with the Dover Ranch influence. I am not straying away from that but building upon it in my commercial herd. We are crossbreeding Angus, Simmental, and our commercial Shorthorns to create cows that will outperform the best of the purebred Angus in a commercial cow/calf setting. I feel your frustrations because I was there and learned a lot about the variances of the Shorthorn breed. I like to say there are about 4 or 5 breeds of Shorthorns within the breed... I encourage you to check out my website to learn more about what we are doing and maybe you will retain some hope that you can utilize some Shorthorn genetics in your commercial cattle.
 

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