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Offline CAB

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Re: Shorthorn Question
« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2010, 12:54:37 PM »
  One thing that I have been thinking while reading this thread is that for a commercial operation it shouldn't be all that hard to use say a SH bull on black cows & manage to keep the calves black hided in an F2 calf. The SHs do have good carcass traits. The thing is right now, I could and would more than likely use the REd Angus breed in the same way probably with more choices and predictability in the end product. JMO.

Offline Toughie

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Re: Shorthorn Question
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2010, 01:40:19 PM »
Wow!  I picked a good day to turn on steer planet.  We are having a sale of Sh/angus heifers this fall.  We call it a Shorthorn influence sale.  It is all commercial bred heifers, either 1/2, 3/4 shorthorn or just commercial females bred to a shorthorn bull.  Our aim is to get more females into commercial herds in our area.  There is a lot of buzz about the sale already and we have had numeroous people come to look at the 30+ heifers that we are putting in the sale. I think if we can gain more commercial acceptance through the female line,  bull sales to commercial breeders will naturally fall into place.  I mean, they have to.   Where else do Shorthorn females come from? 

Offline E6 Durhams

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Re: Shorthorn Question
« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2010, 03:02:36 PM »
http://www.cattlevisions.com/Shorthorn/Nitro.php


TH PHA free by pedigree I believe. He was high selling bull at Ohio Beef Expo few years back. Well he would have been if not for the sale manager delaying the bid over and over. Never seen anything like it in my short career. Anybody ever pulls that crap again, they will get a real good look at my face cause I will sure as hell be in theirs. The bull that out sold him was a good rip but not better. Oh well time will prove the better bull. I would say the buyers of nitro are happy, just a guess from me.

Sue deserves some props for breeding that fella.


Just to be clear, these are just my opinions on the subject. As far as I know sue was very happy with the price she got and I have not discussed this with her. There were several of us watching that all wondered what was happening. I don't know what the deal was or who was at fault if anyone.. I remember the auctioneer even saying, come on boys, if this was a heifer she woulda calved by now. Just a weird moment I guess. Sorry if anyone read into that more.
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Offline Okotoks

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Re: Shorthorn Question
« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2010, 08:05:15 PM »
Wow!  I picked a good day to turn on steer planet.  We are having a sale of Sh/angus heifers this fall.  We call it a Shorthorn influence sale.  It is all commercial bred heifers, either 1/2, 3/4 shorthorn or just commercial females bred to a shorthorn bull.  Our aim is to get more females into commercial herds in our area.  There is a lot of buzz about the sale already and we have had numeroous people come to look at the 30+ heifers that we are putting in the sale. I think if we can gain more commercial acceptance through the female line,  bull sales to commercial breeders will naturally fall into place.  I mean, they have to.   Where else do Shorthorn females come from? 
You should post the sale and date in the classifieds with all the info so we can let others know about.

Offline feeder duck

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Re: Shorthorn Question
« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2010, 05:07:11 AM »
  Ask me why I have fewer Shorthorn cows than ever? The breed is "Brain Washed" at the moment. Mass majority of people are chasing the purple and think only a handful of pedigrees will do it. WRONG. We have back ourselves into a narrow minded high birth weight corner. We have begun a set of Red Angus cows and I love them. I still love my Shorthorns, but until a few things change I am dead in the water. The high prices at sales  and the constant rotation of the same names in the winners circle have driven the common buyer away.Most that spend the high dollars rarely stay around or make the high dollar cattle pay them back. On the commercial side I must agree with Troy (M-Bar) he has a very strong grip on the commercial side as well as the show ring.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 05:08:06 AM by feeder duck »

Offline Okotoks

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Re: Shorthorn Question
« Reply #50 on: September 10, 2010, 01:23:36 PM »
 Ask me why I have fewer Shorthorn cows than ever? The breed is "Brain Washed" at the moment. Mass majority of people are chasing the purple and think only a handful of pedigrees will do it. WRONG. We have back ourselves into a narrow minded high birth weight corner. We have begun a set of Red Angus cows and I love them. I still love my Shorthorns, but until a few things change I am dead in the water. The high prices at sales  and the constant rotation of the same names in the winners circle have driven the common buyer away.Most that spend the high dollars rarely stay around or make the high dollar cattle pay them back. On the commercial side I must agree with Troy (M-Bar) he has a very strong grip on the commercial side as well as the show ring.
With all the options out there it is a bit amazing how many people keep doing the same thing over and over again. It happens in other parts of the industry as well when it comes to shows. Does anyone ever ask why hair, straight legs and freaky fronts are so important in the steer shows? People are seeking out traits propogated by carriers of genetic defects with no regard to whether these animals would perform in the real world of feedlots and packing plants.

Offline justintime

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Re: Shorthorn Question
« Reply #51 on: September 10, 2010, 02:03:05 PM »
 Ask me why I have fewer Shorthorn cows than ever? The breed is "Brain Washed" at the moment. Mass majority of people are chasing the purple and think only a handful of pedigrees will do it. WRONG. We have back ourselves into a narrow minded high birth weight corner. We have begun a set of Red Angus cows and I love them. I still love my Shorthorns, but until a few things change I am dead in the water. The high prices at sales  and the constant rotation of the same names in the winners circle have driven the common buyer away.Most that spend the high dollars rarely stay around or make the high dollar cattle pay them back. On the commercial side I must agree with Troy (M-Bar) he has a very strong grip on the commercial side as well as the show ring.
With all the options out there it is a bit amazing how many people keep doing the same thing over and over again. It happens in other parts of the industry as well when it comes to shows. Does anyone ever ask why hair, straight legs and freaky fronts are so important in the steer shows? People are seeking out traits propogated by carriers of genetic defects with no regard to whether these animals would perform in the real world of feedlots and packing plants.





IMO, I think we have allowed some of this to happen to ourselves. Many of us, sit on show committees for local,regional and national events. Who gets selected to judge these events? Usually it is some college guy or some college trained guy who has been brainwashed into believing what a great show animal should look like. If even a few of these guys had to make their living ( or even most of it) from the actual production of cattle, I think we would see some changes in our show... and there would be less distance  between the show ring and the commercial producer. That is my theory anyways. Some of these show ring fads ( that is exactly what they are) have no real benefit in real world conditions and some are even detrimental. ( I regress back to my rant on the big square hip on females that is desirable in females in the show ring, and I truly believe that this is resulting in more and more females that cannot calve a normal sized calf without assistance. A square hip is fine, if the slope ratio from hooks to pins is proper. I love the look that a big square hip gives a female, and I am OK with it if it doesn't alter Mother Nature's design).  I am not putting all college judges in this basket, as I have seen some excellent college judges, that obviously have a connection to the real world yet. A person can no more put all college trained judges in the same basket as one can all cattle from a particular bloodline. If I may commend shows here in Canada, I think the selection of judges has not gone to the extreme I see in the US. I also believe this is why I feel there is far less disconnect between the sectors of the industry here in Canada.If you look at the judges selected at many of the leading shows in Canada, it usually is a cattle breeder. For example, at Canadian Western Agribition, which is the largest show in Canada, it has been many years since I can remember a none practicing cattle breeder judge a show. This is no guarantee that the judging is good, but I do think it does keep our shows a little closer based on what the industry needs. It also creates an atmosphere where there is less emphasis is placed on the award winners and people make their own decisions on what they like themselves.

Like most things in life, good things are always taken to an extreme. In many parts of N America, good hair is an important factor, but it is not more important than some other economical considerations. In selecting show cattle, hair is oftentimes one of the most important considerations, and I am assuming that this is because a good clipper with an a hair ball of an animal can cover a multitude of inadequacies.  Try to market an animal with abnormal amounts of hair to an Australian breeder. It doesn't work very good. With their conditions, too much hair is a very bad trait. We need cattle with hair here, in most areas, but too much hair can create many problems as well. How many commercial operations do you know that will take the time to sheer their entire herds before going to grass?   I know of some purebred breeders who do this and I would suggest that this is obviously a situation where we have allowed the show ring to move our industry away from common sense issues. In my world, I like cows that work for me, rather than me just working for them. And I still believe that cattle shows are an important part of marketing my cattle and I spend a pile of money each year to make this happen.

I do believe there is a definite place for cattle shows in our industry. I do believe that a cattle show should  be an educational experience for those in attendance. Probably this is why so many college trained judges get picked... because they have all the canned reasons and are trained in public speaking on a mic in front of crowds of people. I must admit that I get a sick feeling when I hear some of these judges try to baffle the audience with their canned idiotic reasons that have no relationship with anything other than fads and fancies. In my perfect world, I would wish for an industry where there was more emphasis placed on showing breeding cattle rather than just breeding show cattle.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 02:30:53 PM by justintime »
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Offline Shorthorns4us

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Re: Shorthorn Question
« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2010, 03:06:00 PM »
Wow- JIT- well put!

Offline flacowman

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Re: Shorthorn Question
« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2010, 03:09:48 PM »
I move that we somehow put JIT's above post in every magazine that is even slightly show oriented on the Continent.  Very well said!  (clapping) (clapping) (clapping)
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Offline Okotoks

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Re: Shorthorn Question
« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2010, 03:16:52 PM »
I agree. Well put JIT! We need to make the show ring reflect our business -beef production-   <beer>

Offline Aussie

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Re: Shorthorn Question
« Reply #55 on: September 10, 2010, 05:01:11 PM »
I agree JIT from the out side looking in the breed is trying the blame everyone else for problems of your own doing. Whining about the black hided myth is fine but at least they have a united front and are working to get rid of genetic defects not chase them. Shorthorns do preform well on grass and in feedlots they are great maternal cattle and have a lot to offer.
As someone said more
 <beer>
Less
 (argue)
Shorthorn breeders use your assets and just get on with it. JMO

Offline E6 Durhams

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Re: Shorthorn Question
« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2010, 06:33:53 PM »
I agree JIT from the out side looking in the breed is trying the blame everyone else for problems of your own doing. Whining about the black hided myth is fine but at least they have a united front and are working to get rid of genetic defects not chase them. Shorthorns do preform well on grass and in feedlots they are great maternal cattle and have a lot to offer.
As someone said more
 <beer>
Less
 (argue)
Shorthorn breeders use your assets and just get on with it. JMO
Sorry but Black Angus breeders are about as divivded as any I have seen. I put them in three catagories........... 1.) The angus the semen pimps push and call them performance oriented. 2.) The show lines in Angus cattle that have as much hair as the show cattle and 3.) the old school maternally oriented, linebreeding group who hate the other two and argue all the time.

Red Angus is what Shorthorns need to model after IMO. Record all the data and report it. Keep it a maternal breed and let the commercial man cross with terminal bulls for the feedlot.
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Offline upthecreek

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Re: Shorthorn Question
« Reply #57 on: September 10, 2010, 08:39:04 PM »
Well said JIT   (clapping)  As 4H leader I am trying to teach my members to stay away from "show cattle" and show breeding stock and good functional steers that will hang a good carcass.  I agree that hear in Canada and particularly in Manitoba the distance from the cow herd and feedlot is not nearly as big as in the US. 

As someone who is starting in the shorthorn breed, the cattle are great, but we need to sell them better.
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Offline elmo radke

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Re: Shorthorn Question
« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2010, 08:15:30 PM »
Cripes, Grant.  We are talking about whether the breed will be back to #3 or #4 and you bring up shows....who cares about a darn show.  How can a breed get more registrations?  I believe that it is not though a halter, it is through cattlemen with "herds" of cattle believing in, producing, marketing, and registering shorthorn cattle.  Maybe I am crazy, but it really, in my humble opinion, boils down to that.  Please tell me that I am crazy.

Offline justintime

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Re: Shorthorn Question
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2010, 08:49:38 PM »
Cripes, Grant.  We are talking about whether the breed will be back to #3 or #4 and you bring up shows....who cares about a darn show.  How can a breed get more registrations?  I believe that it is not though a halter, it is through cattlemen with "herds" of cattle believing in, producing, marketing, and registering shorthorn cattle.  Maybe I am crazy, but it really, in my humble opinion, boils down to that.  Please tell me that I am crazy.


You are 100% correct Troy,and I could not agree with you more. My comments were only meant to respond to feeder duck's comments about how the breed has backed itself into a corner. I think you will agree with me, that there are very few breeders east of the Mississippi who care about selling bulls( or females for that matter) to commercial producers. We have the same divide here in Canada between east and west. My point is that if the breed has backed itself into a corner, I think we can also blame ourselves. I expect my herd is much like yours. The commercial man is my main concern and always will be.My main focus has changed over the years and while there was always a commercial componet in it, today the commercial sector is the main part of my focus.  Back to the original discussion, whether the Shorthorn breed will ever get to 3 or 4 th position  in breed popularity. The short answer is NO. It will not happen at least in my lifetime, and it won't happen until something happens to bring the biggest black breed off it's throne. I do believe that there is room for some significant breed growth and I think we are starting to see it in some areas. There are Shorthorn breeders in my area who are selling almost twice as many bulls as they did a decade ago.I am selling over twice as many as I did a decade ago, and my next goal is to see a 25% increase in that in the next 5 years. I think it is possible.  A decade ago, the closest Shorthorn breeder to me was in North Dakota. Ten years later, there are seven Shorthorn breeders who live closer than him. It takes time and an real pile of work and commitment. It is one thing to have a goal but it is only achievable if you believe in your goal and have the product the market wants. No goals will ever be achieved if all we do is blame our problems on someone else.

I apologize if my last comments were off base from the original intent of this thread. I was only commenting that shows are a big part of this breed, and I think how they are run is a factor to some of what is happening in the breed.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 08:51:40 PM by justintime »
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and bad breath!
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
If love is blind... why is lingerie so popular?
The only thing worse than an idiot ... is an educated idiot!

 

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