Steer Planet - Show Steers and Club Calves Forum

Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: AG TEACHER on September 02, 2010, 01:54:00 PM

Title: Shorthorn Question
Post by: AG TEACHER on September 02, 2010, 01:54:00 PM
I am wondering... Seems like there is so much talk ... discussion... opinion.....and controversy about the shorthorn breed on here which I am glad to see.. My question is.... Is the popularity of the breed going to increase and continue to grow and propel it back to  being number 3-4 instead of #10.... whats the prognosis for the future...15-20 yrs out...
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Shorthorns4us on September 02, 2010, 02:43:26 PM

Well, I would really like to see demand for the shorthorn and shorthorn cross come back to the feedyards.  My grandpa said you always have to have a little shorthorn in your mama cow to help get great fat calves.  And it doesn't hurt that Shorthorns are naturally great mamas.
I hope that we (the breed) can really get our foot back in the door at the packing plant and show that shorthorns can yield, grade and cut.
Don't get me wrong there are lots of shorthorns in feedyards, but we just don't have the volume of fat calves to compare to the black hides.
JMO
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: jaimiediamond on September 02, 2010, 03:39:07 PM
I am wondering... Seems like there is so much talk ... discussion... opinion.....and controversy about the shorthorn breed on here which I am glad to see.. My question is.... Is the popularity of the breed going to increase and continue to grow and propel it back to  being number 3-4 instead of #10.... whats the prognosis for the future...15-20 yrs out...

I feel that the Shorthorn breed is on the rise again, you see more and more in the pastures of the commercial breeders, and they definitely are taking over in the show rings.  In our area a lot of commercial breeders are constantly on a look out for a good shorthorn to put over their Simmental, Charolais, and Angus based cow herds to produce top grading steers and excellent replacement heifers. 
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Okotoks on September 02, 2010, 09:10:39 PM
I am wondering... Seems like there is so much talk ... discussion... opinion.....and controversy about the shorthorn breed on here which I am glad to see.. My question is.... Is the popularity of the breed going to increase and continue to grow and propel it back to  being number 3-4 instead of #10.... whats the prognosis for the future...15-20 yrs out...
I think the breed has a great future. Shorthorn, shorthorn cross cows are great mother cows and don't take second to any combo. As well the best kept secret in the cattle industry is their feed conversion and carcaass traits. If breeders focus on functional good looking cattle the popularity of the breed will increase and grow.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Show Heifer on September 03, 2010, 06:59:11 AM
Not around here. They are dead.
Big birth weights, unacceptable colored calves, too much hair for summer, bad PR from breeders, and the fact they are known for (and themselves publicize) that they are the "show ring breed") will prevent any commercial producer from even considering them.  I mean, how do they justify buying a shortie when everyone at the coffee shop will laugh at them for buying a "pretty fuzzy cow/bull"?  Yea, not going to happen.

Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: aj on September 03, 2010, 07:47:23 AM
I think one thing to consider is the following. This is a great forum with alot of of people logging on. However I think that that disscussing a breeds weakness and strengths pretty much stays here(as far as the commercial market is concerned. Maybe one half of one half of one half of a % of commercial producers visit this sight. The color deal is the biggest thing holding the breed back. It was decided that the breed wasn't going to turn itself black. The black hided myth deal has really caught on. So for better or worse the breed is one of the few non-black breeds yet. It is a great breed. People involved with it know how amazing the breed is. I think if the black hided idiotcy was thrown out the breed would turn selection back to the commercial industry. But since we have been shut out because of the color horse poop people have concentrated on the show ring. Logically that is where the money is.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Okotoks on September 03, 2010, 03:37:34 PM
Not around here. They are dead.
Big birth weights, unacceptable colored calves, too much hair for summer, bad PR from breeders, and the fact they are known for (and themselves publicize) that they are the "show ring breed") will prevent any commercial producer from even considering them.  I mean, how do they justify buying a shortie when everyone at the coffee shop will laugh at them for buying a "pretty fuzzy cow/bull"?  Yea, not going to happen.

In the eighties in our area black hided calves were discounted.The people who put them at the top weren't too worried about coffee shop laughter! We have been able to be right at the top of the market with our shorthorn steer calves the last few years. There are shorthorn genetics out there that will compete in the pasture,feedlot and on the rail. It won't be sales to Show Heifer that put us back on top. When it comes to breeding good cattle in any breed "coffee shop laughter" never entered into a true cattle breeders decisions!
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: aj on September 03, 2010, 05:55:09 PM
Okytoks. She has a point. Here in the midwest it is crucial to be black.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Okotoks on September 03, 2010, 06:27:42 PM
Okotoks. She has a point. Here in the midwest it is crucial to be black.
AJ I'm not disputing that due to excellent marketing of a good product the black cattle are bringing a premium.
I'm just saying we have the genetics in the shorthorn breed if we do the selection, the marketing and the promotion that can move us back to a commercially viable option. We are lucky in Canada that our grading system pays a premium for marbling which is a Shorthorn strong point. There have also been trials where pens of shorthorn steers have out gained other breed pens and with better feed convertion. Her point is well taken in that we have to start propogating Shorthorn genetics that work for the commercial producer. I'm confident there are enough Shorthorn breeders focusing on commercially viable genetics that the breed will gain a significant amount of market share in the future.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: E6 Durhams on September 03, 2010, 07:43:11 PM
Black cattle still bring a premium here in Ohio. Commercial people will pay attention to shorthorns when we can show them how shorthorns will help them increase their profits. When the biggest breeder promotes cattle that IMO are not accurately recorded and are pushed hard on high input, it gives lots of people  a bad expierence with shorthorn. The fact is shorthorns are extremely tender and when crossed on a angus based cow herd will add more premiums for carcass quality in the feed lot. The problem still is and has been, the wrong genetics in the wrong place. If you are using the hot lines and are making them work on low input operations, then good for you, but you are in the minority and I would applaud your skills as a breeder. We need to push and prove some breeders that are "on the fringe" of being big. Give Captain Obvious, RS DV 034, 7026, American Muscle, Elbee bulls, Meadowlane, Koulee's, Leveldale, Kaper's, Roy Lovas, Loving's, A@T, Hubs, Lauer's, the Diamond bull on here recently and those folks. The base is there, if you are serious, then we need to propigate those genetics on a large scale and show people where the profit is. I feel sorry for people like show heifer and countless others who get crapped on by the big dogs year after year. I guess it's time for me to trade my baseball cap for a cowboy hat and call myself a consultant or sale manager cause the ones that are doing it are as useless as hen poo on a pump handle. Sorry JMO.

Challenge your cattle and see who the best is. I am trying to.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: commercialfarmer on September 04, 2010, 03:22:20 AM
I haven't got the "pudding" yet to prove that Shorthorns crosses are one of the best kept secrets, but I'm working on it.  If you look around, especially Australia and even evidence on this site, a lot of Murray Grey cattle and Shorthorn based cattle have some of the best carcasses.  That is where my interest started.

The fact that the breed is overall doing well in the show ring is likely a good thing (by no means saying all these cattle will be good production cattle).  Always at some level, producers buy cattle based on appeal.  Heck, the only thing we know for sure is that they either look good or they don't.  Having all this "pretty" bred in will help- another reason I am attracted to them.  Myself, I have plans to get some crosses using genetics from one of the Diamond bull's (for cows) and Captain Obvious (for heifers) and hopefully get ahead of the industry- and an added benefit, the owners aren't afraid to talk to you.  I must admit however, until the spotted and red cattle are allowed to eat at the bunk also, I am trying to keep them mostly black which is not hard.

If the breed wanted to get serious about production cattle, I think that starting a source verified program (if there is one, I am not aware of it?) would be first.  This being the information age it is we live in, get as much carcass, feed efficiency, and gain data as possible and get it online, and in brochures.  Target the guys that will stand to benefit the most from it.  Marketing is what sells in any industry.  Then a good product brings repeat business.  The most impressionable lesson I learned when marketing a new business I helped start was this...  McDonald's doesn't make the best hamburger, they are just the best at advertising.  They don't spend even seconds discussing how to make there "cardboard" cheeseburgers better today than it was last year or even 10 years ago.  But they spend a lot of time and millions on making sure you and I see their brand at least once a day. 

I just ask that you wait until I get my semen bought before you start the craze... 
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Show Heifer on September 04, 2010, 08:18:47 AM

In the eighties in our area black hided calves were discounted.The people who put them at the top weren't too worried about coffee shop laughter! We have been able to be right at the top of the market with our shorthorn steer calves the last few years. There are shorthorn genetics out there that will compete in the pasture,feedlot and on the rail. It won't be sales to Show Heifer that put us back on top. When it comes to breeding good cattle in any breed "coffee shop laughter" never entered into a true cattle breeders decisions!

[/quote]

My coffe shop comment was a bit "tongue in cheek" . Sorry you missed that... but my point still stands. The question of the post was will shorthorns increase or decrease in popularity. My response was decrease. Let me explain in detail.
The breeders here in the midwest are show herds. They have too much hair, not enough milk, no fertility, too much purple hype to make it into the commercial market. Plus the breeders (in general, not all) are not who the commercial guy is going to deal with. Too many crooks, not enough honesty. I was flat screwed by 3 shorty breeders and I will NEVER go back, nor will I support the breed. (You HAVE heard the saying "One happy customer will come back. One unhappy customer will cost you 20 prospect customers"  haven't you?  Well, I am that ONE.)
The breeders around here are not WANTING to sell to the commercial producer. They want to win a show. They want to beat sullivans. They want to grow hair. They will pull calves. They will bottle feed calves. They will brag about 1500 pound heifers. They will admire ton cows. They take it as an insult to "have to sell" to the commercial producer.
The red angus X Char cross is huge around here and will run with the blacks, so it has a bit to do with color, but has more to do with the attitude of the breed. Purple doesn't equal green in the commericial producers mind.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: justintime on September 04, 2010, 08:45:01 AM
Here in Canada, as well as almost every country except the US, Shorthorn popularity in the commercial sector, is growing by leaps and bounds. The Shorthorn breed has regained some lost ground in Australia, where they were once one of the most popular breeds. Shorthorn sales are again strong with the commercial producer being the major player at these. The Shorthorn breed was put on the endangered breed list in Britain, during the 90s and they have made a resurgence and are now one of the hottest breeds with amazing breed growth. The prices being paid by commercial cattlemen in Britain are amazing. More Shorthorn semen has been sold into Brazil in the past year than in all the years previously. Here in Canada, particularly Western Canada, I am positive that Shorthorns are being looked at by commercial producers as a legitimate breed choice. I agree with Okotoks and jaimiediamond that the breed has great potential here. The road to gaining breed popularity is a very hard one, but it is worth it when you see increased sales. We have always had pretty good female sales, but we are now seeing better bull sales. I maintain that any breed needs to develop commercial bull sales if they are going to see breed popularity grow. We are seeing more and more Shorthorn bulls going into commercial herds, and in my herd, my Shorthorn cross calves from my commercial herd, always sell extremely well. I am not seeing any discounts even on roans, in fact, if the right buyers are at the sales, they bring a premium. I don't think a person could produce enough Shorthorn cross females to fill the demand. I do not know why more people are not getting into the production of Shorthorn F1 females. If I was a younger man, I would be chasing this one for sure.

In the US, it is a totally different deal, and the Shorthorn breed will continue to have a place, but the black hided deal has created a very artifiical marketplace. I get sick every time I think of the feeders and packers who are literally stealing these cattle from producers, and making huge profits on them once they are harvested. Okotoks mentioned that in the 80s, black cattle were discounted in our markets. That is very correct. My dad always liked Angus cows, and I remember him often saying, that he would love to have 20 good Angus cows, but he did not know what you would do with the calves. I am old enough to remember going to the major bull sales, and feeling so sorry for the Angus breeders who passed bull after bull through their sales.
The American Angus Association should get some major marketing awards for designing a market place that ensures the popularity of their breed. They must sit in their offices and roll with laughter sometimes, when they look back and see how easy it was to make this happen. I give them all the credit, and ALL other breeds have to take the responsibility of sitting back and allowing this to happen.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Okotoks on September 04, 2010, 12:43:50 PM

In the eighties in our area black hided calves were discounted.The people who put them at the top weren't too worried about coffee shop laughter! We have been able to be right at the top of the market with our shorthorn steer calves the last few years. There are shorthorn genetics out there that will compete in the pasture,feedlot and on the rail. It won't be sales to Show Heifer that put us back on top. When it comes to breeding good cattle in any breed "coffee shop laughter" never entered into a true cattle breeders decisions!


My coffe shop comment was a bit "tongue in cheek" . Sorry you missed that... but my point still stands. The question of the post was will shorthorns increase or decrease in popularity. My response was decrease. Let me explain in detail.
The breeders here in the midwest are show herds. They have too much hair, not enough milk, no fertility, too much purple hype to make it into the commercial market. Plus the breeders (in general, not all) are not who the commercial guy is going to deal with. Too many crooks, not enough honesty. I was flat screwed by 3 shorty breeders and I will NEVER go back, nor will I support the breed. (You HAVE heard the saying "One happy customer will come back. One unhappy customer will cost you 20 prospect customers"  haven't you?  Well, I am that ONE.)
The breeders around here are not WANTING to sell to the commercial producer. They want to win a show. They want to beat sullivans. They want to grow hair. They will pull calves. They will bottle feed calves. They will brag about 1500 pound heifers. They will admire ton cows. They take it as an insult to "have to sell" to the commercial producer.
The red angus X Char cross is huge around here and will run with the blacks, so it has a bit to do with color, but has more to do with the attitude of the breed. Purple doesn't equal green in the commericial producers mind.

[/quote]
I understand where you are coming from as I would be the same if the seller wasnít honest. That type of person doesnít even qualify as a cattle breeder in my book. They donít lose any sleep over their dishonesty either, they just probably dream about their bank balance as they donít have any conscience.
Reporting improper birth weights, birth dates or hiding problems will hurt all breeders and a lot of buyers.
Itís the same with people propagating genetic defects to just win in the show ring. What about the thousands of heifers that enter the commercial market and spread these recessive defects? Now that there is genetic testing its mind boggling that people are actually trying to find carriers to use rather than breed away from the problem. I know of breeders that bought bulls and tested them only to find they were carriers and the original carrier is back in the 9th generation. There will be some commercial herds that lose up to 25% of their calf crop in the future if people donít start acting responsibly.
The show ring is supposed to be where we show our breeding programs. Unfortunately it has become about breeding to show for a lot of producers. Until that disconnect is fixed a lot more people will get hurt.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: sue on September 06, 2010, 02:33:19 PM
I am wondering... Seems like there is so much talk ... discussion... opinion.....and controversy about the shorthorn breed on here which I am glad to see.. My question is.... Is the popularity of the breed going to increase and continue to grow and propel it back to  being number 3-4 instead of #10.... whats the prognosis for the future...15-20 yrs out...
SH crosses...
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: uluru on September 06, 2010, 03:17:55 PM
Nice female Sue
Is she a sister or half sister to my Rosela H2SO 815 from Lakeside?
I am working on a deal for more DRs and crosses.
..........................Bob
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: uluru on September 06, 2010, 03:21:34 PM
JIT why do you have to be young to do the X thing with RA?
We have an opportunity where my cows are now.
I am going to move on it once all the dust settles with the pasture thing.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: sue on September 06, 2010, 03:30:23 PM
Nice female Sue
Is she a sister or half sister to my Rosela H2SO 815 from Lakeside?
I am working on a deal for more DRs and crosses.
..........................Bob

Yep. Maternal sister to yours- this one is  by Captain,  Took this pic today just after a nice rain.
I hope your deal works out with making more.
 I think 3/4 shXangus bulls will have a nice place in the near future. ;)
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: justintime on September 06, 2010, 03:39:39 PM
JIT why do you have to be young to do the X thing with RA?
We have an opportunity where my cows are now.
I am going to move on it once all the dust settles with the pasture thing.


Bob, I did not mean that you have to be young to do the X thing with RA. What I meant was I am starting to  seriously think about reducing my cow numbers. I, also, am planning on doing more flushes using some RA sires, and I still have some Durham Red embryos in inventory. What I meant in my comment, was that if I was younger than I am now, I would be much more serious about adding more cows and trying to produce F1 females in larger numbers. I think if someone got serious and produced say 100-150 F1 Shorthorn cross females, I think they could develop a real market for them. This can be done using smaller numbers of females, but I think in order to develop a good market, it would be easier done with numbers. The commercial orders I have been getting for Shorthorn X females usually are for 25- 100 in a group, and if possible from one herd. Right now, that is a hard thing to find. If only I was younger.........
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: sue on September 06, 2010, 04:09:36 PM
JIT why do you have to be young to do the X thing with RA?
We have an opportunity where my cows are now.
I am going to move on it once all the dust settles with the pasture thing.


Bob, I did not mean that you have to be young to do the X thing with RA. What I meant was I am starting to  seriously think about reducing my cow numbers. I, also, am planning on doing more flushes using some RA sires, and I still have some Durham Red embryos in inventory. What I meant in my comment, was that if I was younger than I am now, I would be much more serious about adding more cows and trying to produce F1 females in larger numbers. I think if someone got serious and produced say 100-150 F1 Shorthorn cross females, I think they could develop a real market for them. This can be done using smaller numbers of females, but I think in order to develop a good market, it would be easier done with numbers. The commercial orders I have been getting for Shorthorn X females usually are for 25- 100 in a group, and if possible from one herd. Right now, that is a hard thing to find. If only I was younger.........
You're right grant. It does take large numbers to fill the orders. We have a customer using Captain and there current Black Donor line up to make large quantities of F1 pregnancies. Making another 100 now to fill the same buyer's order that just purchased over 50.
Im just a kid  ;) but the more I see the more i like so I may make this leap too
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: feeder duck on September 06, 2010, 04:53:49 PM

  Don't get me started!!!!!!! >:(
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: E6 Durhams on September 06, 2010, 08:56:46 PM
Shorthorn/ angus cross????????????????? (clapping) I'm reading this smiling from ear to ear. Now if I could just find that older rancher who was looking to help out a young one and build some awesome cows in the process. I still got a strong back and a somewhat weak mind so I am ready. My cows come with me and I can A.I.!!!!!! <beer> :)
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: E6 Durhams on September 06, 2010, 09:07:24 PM
Shorthorn / Red angus bred heifer on grass
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: E6 Durhams on September 06, 2010, 09:11:33 PM
3/4 shorthorn 1/4 red angus coming two bull raised on grass. Pictures are from my phone so not the best
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: shortdawg on September 06, 2010, 10:17:37 PM
Shorty/Angus cross has worked for me for a while - love that cross. Makes great momma cows for sure. Bred all my shorty heifers to Northern Improvement this past fall and the calves that were just born (all unassisted) look great.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: DLD on September 06, 2010, 10:38:26 PM
Please understand, I'm not knocking the breed - I know there are Shorthorn cattle out there that'll work in 'most any scenarios, but I work at a sale barn and I'm telling you that Shorthorns have a long, long way to go to gain any kind of commercial acceptance in this part of the country.
Most of the Shorthorns around here are one extreme or the other - either little no growing clubby bred ones or big framey one gutted purebreds, and stocker and feeder buyers have plenty of reason not to want either one.  IMO, the fastest road to acceptance is to turn 'em solid red, or very nearly so - at this point even high quality roans or paints are going to take a major hit.  It makes for a viscous circle though, because knowing this, the Shorthorn breeders are trying even harder to produce something they can sell for a premium as a show calf to make up for the hit they're gonna take on the others at the sale barn.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: sjcattleco on September 07, 2010, 12:05:56 AM
I am sorry but the last thing we need to do is worry about solid red color.... the best ones are always roan!!! if people think uniformity/ quality  = solid color they should get out of the cattle business
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: E6 Durhams on September 07, 2010, 06:08:38 AM
Please understand, I'm not knocking the breed - I know there are Shorthorn cattle out there that'll work in 'most any scenarios, but I work at a sale barn and I'm telling you that Shorthorns have a long, long way to go to gain any kind of commercial acceptance in this part of the country.
Most of the Shorthorns around here are one extreme or the other - either little no growing clubby bred ones or big framey one gutted purebreds, and stocker and feeder buyers have plenty of reason not to want either one.  IMO, the fastest road to acceptance is to turn 'em solid red, or very nearly so - at this point even high quality roans or paints are going to take a major hit.  It makes for a viscous circle though, because knowing this, the Shorthorn breeders are trying even harder to produce something they can sell for a premium as a show calf to make up for the hit they're gonna take on the others at the sale barn.

This way of thinking is ignorant and drives me crazy. Yet it is tthe majority of sale barns that run like this.  No crack on you DLD, you are just speakin from your what you have seen. This line of thinkin would fall under the Black Hided Myth Assoc. and should be one of the first orders of business to eradicate.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: aj on September 07, 2010, 07:05:55 AM
If you get into the Durham Red type deal.....at least be aware of Red Angus defects. Its not wide spread but it does require some study. I have seemed to lucked out.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Show Heifer on September 07, 2010, 07:24:40 AM
DLD is just stating the obvious.  That is why the shortie breed will fail in the long run. 1. The blind eye - not willing to see the weakness in their breed and not willing to change it for acceptance.  2. The "your attacking me." whine. whine. whine.

Your sounding like the president. Blame everyone else for your problems, and stay the course that got the bad reputation. Not printing BW's, EPD's, or defect status in catalogs is just the tip of the iceberg.   The problems go way beyond the actual cattle.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: E6 Durhams on September 07, 2010, 07:53:10 AM
If you get into the Durham Red type deal.....at least be aware of Red Angus defects. Its not wide spread but it does require some study. I have seemed to lucked out.

Me to. I have about 20 straws of the old Canyon bull that will probably never get used. Knock on wood but I have been lucky and avoided all defects n shorties, black and red angus. Thank the Lord.

Show Heifer your bad expierience was with some of the big dogs not the whole breed. You were steered into drinking the punch and now you have to pay the price, there are many good people and many good lines to work with. I will GIVE you any semen on my shorthorn or durham red bulls to try. No strings attached. Ten straws or 20 I don't care. Not showy but they work for me in my enviroment. In the past week I have sold a durham red bull to a commercial angus hereford guy. The bull was dirty and not clipped and blown out. He loved it. Now if the bull will breed like I think he can, I have a new customer! One customer at a time is the only way to turn it around. He saw a bull I placed at another commercial farm and came to see what I was up to.  One customer at a time.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Shorthorns4us on September 07, 2010, 10:29:01 AM
There are a lot of things on this post to agree and disagree with. 
I am optimistic-- the commercial market and feedlot market is there- it is just going to take some more time and unity within the breed to produce and market a large group of feedlot accepted steers and heifers to a feedlot group.  Results will spread. 
I fight this every year in my area- black, black, black.  I am working on Durham Reds also-- always use semen and cows that are tested defect free.  The Red Angus angle in my area seems to give some acceptability and credibility to the feeder calves.  I am forturnate to have a sale barn that accepts colored calves and they don't get hit as hard as some of the other area sale barns. 
The Shorthorn Country article in the new issue gives some results of the Great State Feedout and it sounds like the Shorthorns made money and had very promising carcass results.  We track what we feed out-- my numbers are small, but the carcass data is what I would want to see as a commercial feeder.   Now please ASA-- go to the feedyards with the data and push-- go to the order buyers and push-- the squeaky wheel will get the grease.
I would really like to see the actual grid sheets with the numbers for the whole group.  I hope the ASA is able to put that information out there.
Again- optimistic and JMO.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Show Heifer on September 07, 2010, 11:44:16 AM
Your right Trevor, a few bad apples spoiled the whole box. Sure did. And I have paid the price. To the tune of close to 10,000. Isn't that enough? Trust me, those the screwed will never, and I repeat never, get a kind word from my mouth. THAT is the price THEY will pay.

Shorthorns4us - you are right also. By crossing the shorties with red angus, you are "reinventing" the shortie breed to make it acceptable to the commercial producer - making them solid colored, and have acceptable birth weights. If I understood the question, it was refering to purebred shorties, not crossbreds.  In fact, that is a good comparison, because I see the shortie breed as very comparable to the Chi's. The couldn't make the commercial cattleman accept them, so therefore they opened up their registry and created the "Chi Wand" of which if waved over any bovine, it could be considered a Chi. That is where I see the shorties going. Down a road to where to be classified as a shortie, all you will have to do is wave the magic wand over them and say "You are now a shortie" and pay your $30 to register and you have yourself a shortie. Is that what you want? really?  That is what your doing with the durham red thing.... reinventing a product that isn't working.

I myself laugh at the CAB beef program.... doesn't even have to be angus to qualify, but, you HAVE to give credit to the black angus assoc... they are king of the marketing machine and sad as it maybe, that is what rules.

Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: elmo radke on September 07, 2010, 01:15:15 PM
I will give you my 2 cents on the original question.  Will the shorthorn breed get back to the #3 or #4 breed in size.  The answer is NO.  Why?  There are about 3 big reasons.

1.   There are very, very few breeders with over 50 cows that have any interest in the commercial bull market.  The quickest way to get into the commercial market is to sell BULLS.  There is not one DV auction or Superior livestock auction that offers ANY shorthorn bulls.  How many red angus, angus, simmental, hereford or gelbvieh sales are across the united states that 50-300 bulls in a sale?  A bunch.  This breed has none and won't because no one that has shorthorns can offer those kind of numbers of bulls to look at.  Bull buyers don't travel much anymore.  The bulls that are exibited at Denver in the yards is the closest thing to anything that resembles an offering of SH bulls, but they are not uniform in make and kind like you would see at a lare seedstock breeder's place with any other breed.  To get bigger, shorthorn needs some breeders of high numbers of cattle to buy in to the value of shorthorn and sell them.
2.    The ability of current breeders to "enhance" a commercial herd is not as good as it should be.  The carcass data is the biggest piece of information that the ASA has put together and it is dynomite.  However, if breeders don't use this tool to offer up in pubilcations, advertisements, flyers, etc., it will be nothing more than a piece of paper.  Red angus built their association based on DATA, they use the heck out of it.  Shorthorn breeders use purple banners, flushes, hair and other promotion that the commercial folks could care less about.  Data integrity has to be at the forefront of all breeders IF they want to sell to commercial operations. 
3.   Semen companies are not promoting shorthorn genetics.  There is a small offering, but if you look at ABS, where are the shorthorn bulls located?  In the clubbie section.  If ABS, Genex, Bull Barn genetics thought they could make money off of promoting a shorthorn bull, they would.  I know that recently there was a bull bought by Genex, and that gives me a ray of hope.  Ya'll need to understand that many, many, many commercial folks rest their breeding decisions on the ABS rep's advise.  ABS will not risk business on anything other than a sure bet.  How much Mytty In Focus semen did they sell in one year?  A bunch.  Why?  He was their choice of bull to promote.  Why?  Awesome DATA, good breeding, HIGH ACCURACY DATA.



I have hope that it will be good for the association to grow, but just can't see it in the future without some of the things listed above changing.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Shorthorns4us on September 07, 2010, 01:44:35 PM
Show Heifer- great point with the Chi example.  How many true Chi cattle do we see?  I did divert from the original question, but it all comes around in a big circle. 
I know that we are originially talking about purebreds, but I like the options that the Durham Red is offering in the meantime.  I have several cows that are just awesome cows- they are the best of both worlds. 
I would prefer that the purebreds were widely accepted, but in the meantime I do have bills to pay and have to find an option that still allows me to use the breed. 
Great thread!
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: E6 Durhams on September 07, 2010, 08:20:49 PM
Show heifer, ten grand is plenty and once again I apologize for how the so called sales consultants treated you. You make a good point with the Chi's. I will say however that the durham red cross would not be anything without the shorthorn. Red angus are just as vital. The cross either red or black is my finest work yet and I will keep doing it.

Personally, I have really enjoyed the conversation here. I guess the race is on to see who will be the breeders that accept the challenge and take it head on. If I had the resources I would have the biggest damn herd of shorties you have ever seen. I plan on breeding my durham reds to shorthorns for the remainder of their production lives.

M Bar makes some very good points that need to be handled. So if we r nothing but a bunch of little breeders, then lets put aside the B.S. and get something done. Lots of good people within the breed to build from. I'm a nobody but I will do whatever I can to improve this breed because I believe in it.  I may not agree with all of you and you may not agree with me but we all love shorthorns and we are all in the same boat. When the little guys are doing well, the big guys will be too. Any investors out there that want to buy the Basin Angus Ranch? Only 12,000 acres for 12,000,000. I will run it for you and we can fill it up with shorthorns! I can see it now. We will mob graze the whole place and prove shorthorns value. <cowboy>

One customer at a time.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: sue on September 07, 2010, 09:49:52 PM
Show heifer, ten grand is plenty and once again I apologize for how the so called sales consultants treated you. You make a good point with the Chi's. I will say however that the durham red cross would not be anything without the shorthorn. Red angus are just as vital. The cross either red or black is my finest work yet and I will keep doing it.

Personally, I have really enjoyed the conversation here. I guess the race is on to see who will be the breeders that accept the challenge and take it head on. If I had the resources I would have the biggest damn herd of shorties you have ever seen. I plan on breeding my durham reds to shorthorns for the remainder of their production lives.

M Bar makes some very good points that need to be handled. So if we r nothing but a bunch of little breeders, then lets put aside the B.S. and get something done. Lots of good people within the breed to build from. I'm a nobody but I will do whatever I can to improve this breed because I believe in it.  I may not agree with all of you and you may not agree with me but we all love shorthorns and we are all in the same boat. When the little guys are doing well, the . big guys will be too. Any investors out there that want to buy the Basin Angus Ranch? Only 12,000 acres for 12,000,000. I will run it for you and we can fill it up with shorthorns! I can see it now. We will mob graze the whole place and prove shorthorns value. <cowboy>

One customer at a time.
I disagree with MBAR respectfully... im small but have put bulls in large black herds. It has more to do with what you have and what you're doing. I dont think a purple banner helps the bull buyer image but if you exhibit the right stuff it never hurts. I didnt need Ron Bolze to tell me we have a calving ease problem 10 yrs ago??
Show Heifer . Starting a shorthorn show herd in Iowa .... probably not a smart idea. We are revising our web page- but trust me under show heifers for sale- will be John Sullivans number.
Why wait for a Association to do something ... there are so many SH influenced cattle not papered. My guess is that is where the growth is going to continue.

Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: DRB on September 08, 2010, 09:15:46 AM

[/quote]
We are revising our web page- but trust me under show heifers for sale- will be John Sullivans number.
[/quote]
 (clapping)  I applaud you Sue - that's definitely defining your breeding program (atleast what it's not)!  It's always tempting to try and have something for everyone and end up with a very motley crew and a directionless program.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: sue on September 08, 2010, 12:39:06 PM
DRB- I am not slamming SULL's extremely competitive show program. I've watched him dominant again and again so I figure  if you visit my web page I might as well tell where to go and find the best female to win. 
 I figure they will need a bull later - looks like Nitro is working well with SULL breeding ;)
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Okotoks on September 08, 2010, 01:01:14 PM
Show heifer, ten grand is plenty and once again I apologize for how the so called sales consultants treated you. You make a good point with the Chi's. I will say however that the durham red cross would not be anything without the shorthorn. Red angus are just as vital. The cross either red or black is my finest work yet and I will keep doing it.

Personally, I have really enjoyed the conversation here. I guess the race is on to see who will be the breeders that accept the challenge and take it head on. If I had the resources I would have the biggest damn herd of shorties you have ever seen. I plan on breeding my durham reds to shorthorns for the remainder of their production lives.

M Bar makes some very good points that need to be handled. So if we r nothing but a bunch of little breeders, then lets put aside the B.S. and get something done. Lots of good people within the breed to build from. I'm a nobody but I will do whatever I can to improve this breed because I believe in it.  I may not agree with all of you and you may not agree with me but we all love shorthorns and we are all in the same boat. When the little guys are doing well, the big guys will be too. Any investors out there that want to buy the Basin Angus Ranch? Only 12,000 acres for 12,000,000. I will run it for you and we can fill it up with shorthorns! I can see it now. We will mob graze the whole place and prove shorthorns value. <cowboy>

One customer at a time.
I agree. There are lots of good programs out there being run by some great people. If you have a goal and a focus there's no reason why you can't get market share. The breed is a very good product and the show ring over time has hurt more breeds and species than just the shorthorn. As soon as function and correctness are overshadowed the show ring will create a problem.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Okotoks on September 08, 2010, 01:05:39 PM
DRB- I am not slamming SULL's extremely competitive show program. I've watched him dominant again and again so I figure  if you visit my web page I might as well tell where to go and find the best female to win. 
 I figure they will need a bull later - looks like Nitro is working well with SULL breeding ;)
Sue - I should probably know who "Nitro" is but I'm having a brain cramp! Info please.
Thanks
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: elmo radke on September 08, 2010, 03:33:37 PM
Sue,  I was just relating to the original question.  Whether SH will be the #3 or #4 breed in the future in size.  The breed won't if our registrations stay at 20K per year.  That doesn't deter from each breeders ability to sell SH or SH influenced cattle. 
 
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Okotoks on September 09, 2010, 12:48:36 AM
Sue,  I was just relating to the original question.  Whether SH will be the #3 or #4 breed in the future in size.  The breed won't if our registrations stay at 20K per year.  That doesn't deter from each breeders ability to sell SH or SH influenced cattle. 
 
The only way for a breed to start gaining in registration numbers is to develop a commercial market. If a breed focuses on selling show heifers average breeders can't make enough money on the majority of their calf crop. The show heifer market will still be there if their brothers are being sold as bulls. A commercial market helps ensure a lot more breed growth.
The breed has great carcass characteristics we just have to collect the data and get some meaningful EPD's then MARKET.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: E6 Durhams on September 09, 2010, 06:59:59 AM
http://www.cattlevisions.com/Shorthorn/Nitro.php (http://www.cattlevisions.com/Shorthorn/Nitro.php)


TH PHA free by pedigree I believe. He was high selling bull at Ohio Beef Expo few years back. Well he would have been if not for the sale manager delaying the bid over and over. Never seen anything like it in my short career. Anybody ever pulls that crap again, they will get a real good look at my face cause I will sure as hell be in theirs. The bull that out sold him was a good rip but not better. Oh well time will prove the better bull. I would say the buyers of nitro are happy, just a guess from me.

Sue deserves some props for breeding that fella.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: DRB on September 09, 2010, 10:29:13 AM
DRB- I am not slamming SULL's extremely competitive show program. I've watched him dominant again and again so I figure  if you visit my web page I might as well tell where to go and find the best female to win. 
 I figure they will need a bull later - looks like Nitro is working well with SULL breeding ;)

I completely agree with you Sue - I was not knocking Sullivan's program at all, they have a clear focus and have achieved awesome results!

I was applauding you for being forthright and upfront about your own program.  I think it's great when a breeder would say to a potential customer, "hey I would love to sell you something that might fit your needs, but you'd probably be better off checking out this other breeder as what you are looking for really isn't my focus."

Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: CAB on September 09, 2010, 12:54:37 PM
  One thing that I have been thinking while reading this thread is that for a commercial operation it shouldn't be all that hard to use say a SH bull on black cows & manage to keep the calves black hided in an F2 calf. The SHs do have good carcass traits. The thing is right now, I could and would more than likely use the REd Angus breed in the same way probably with more choices and predictability in the end product. JMO.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Toughie on September 09, 2010, 01:40:19 PM
Wow!  I picked a good day to turn on steer planet.  We are having a sale of Sh/angus heifers this fall.  We call it a Shorthorn influence sale.  It is all commercial bred heifers, either 1/2, 3/4 shorthorn or just commercial females bred to a shorthorn bull.  Our aim is to get more females into commercial herds in our area.  There is a lot of buzz about the sale already and we have had numeroous people come to look at the 30+ heifers that we are putting in the sale. I think if we can gain more commercial acceptance through the female line,  bull sales to commercial breeders will naturally fall into place.  I mean, they have to.   Where else do Shorthorn females come from? 
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: E6 Durhams on September 09, 2010, 03:02:36 PM
[url]http://www.cattlevisions.com/Shorthorn/Nitro.php[/url] ([url]http://www.cattlevisions.com/Shorthorn/Nitro.php[/url])


TH PHA free by pedigree I believe. He was high selling bull at Ohio Beef Expo few years back. Well he would have been if not for the sale manager delaying the bid over and over. Never seen anything like it in my short career. Anybody ever pulls that crap again, they will get a real good look at my face cause I will sure as hell be in theirs. The bull that out sold him was a good rip but not better. Oh well time will prove the better bull. I would say the buyers of nitro are happy, just a guess from me.

Sue deserves some props for breeding that fella.


Just to be clear, these are just my opinions on the subject. As far as I know sue was very happy with the price she got and I have not discussed this with her. There were several of us watching that all wondered what was happening. I don't know what the deal was or who was at fault if anyone.. I remember the auctioneer even saying, come on boys, if this was a heifer she woulda calved by now. Just a weird moment I guess. Sorry if anyone read into that more.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Okotoks on September 09, 2010, 08:05:15 PM
Wow!  I picked a good day to turn on steer planet.  We are having a sale of Sh/angus heifers this fall.  We call it a Shorthorn influence sale.  It is all commercial bred heifers, either 1/2, 3/4 shorthorn or just commercial females bred to a shorthorn bull.  Our aim is to get more females into commercial herds in our area.  There is a lot of buzz about the sale already and we have had numeroous people come to look at the 30+ heifers that we are putting in the sale. I think if we can gain more commercial acceptance through the female line,  bull sales to commercial breeders will naturally fall into place.  I mean, they have to.   Where else do Shorthorn females come from? 
You should post the sale and date in the classifieds with all the info so we can let others know about.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: feeder duck on September 10, 2010, 05:07:11 AM
  Ask me why I have fewer Shorthorn cows than ever? The breed is "Brain Washed" at the moment. Mass majority of people are chasing the purple and think only a handful of pedigrees will do it. WRONG. We have back ourselves into a narrow minded high birth weight corner. We have begun a set of Red Angus cows and I love them. I still love my Shorthorns, but until a few things change I am dead in the water. The high prices at sales  and the constant rotation of the same names in the winners circle have driven the common buyer away.Most that spend the high dollars rarely stay around or make the high dollar cattle pay them back. On the commercial side I must agree with Troy (M-Bar) he has a very strong grip on the commercial side as well as the show ring.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Okotoks on September 10, 2010, 01:23:36 PM
 Ask me why I have fewer Shorthorn cows than ever? The breed is "Brain Washed" at the moment. Mass majority of people are chasing the purple and think only a handful of pedigrees will do it. WRONG. We have back ourselves into a narrow minded high birth weight corner. We have begun a set of Red Angus cows and I love them. I still love my Shorthorns, but until a few things change I am dead in the water. The high prices at sales  and the constant rotation of the same names in the winners circle have driven the common buyer away.Most that spend the high dollars rarely stay around or make the high dollar cattle pay them back. On the commercial side I must agree with Troy (M-Bar) he has a very strong grip on the commercial side as well as the show ring.
With all the options out there it is a bit amazing how many people keep doing the same thing over and over again. It happens in other parts of the industry as well when it comes to shows. Does anyone ever ask why hair, straight legs and freaky fronts are so important in the steer shows? People are seeking out traits propogated by carriers of genetic defects with no regard to whether these animals would perform in the real world of feedlots and packing plants.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: justintime on September 10, 2010, 02:03:05 PM
 Ask me why I have fewer Shorthorn cows than ever? The breed is "Brain Washed" at the moment. Mass majority of people are chasing the purple and think only a handful of pedigrees will do it. WRONG. We have back ourselves into a narrow minded high birth weight corner. We have begun a set of Red Angus cows and I love them. I still love my Shorthorns, but until a few things change I am dead in the water. The high prices at sales  and the constant rotation of the same names in the winners circle have driven the common buyer away.Most that spend the high dollars rarely stay around or make the high dollar cattle pay them back. On the commercial side I must agree with Troy (M-Bar) he has a very strong grip on the commercial side as well as the show ring.
With all the options out there it is a bit amazing how many people keep doing the same thing over and over again. It happens in other parts of the industry as well when it comes to shows. Does anyone ever ask why hair, straight legs and freaky fronts are so important in the steer shows? People are seeking out traits propogated by carriers of genetic defects with no regard to whether these animals would perform in the real world of feedlots and packing plants.





IMO, I think we have allowed some of this to happen to ourselves. Many of us, sit on show committees for local,regional and national events. Who gets selected to judge these events? Usually it is some college guy or some college trained guy who has been brainwashed into believing what a great show animal should look like. If even a few of these guys had to make their living ( or even most of it) from the actual production of cattle, I think we would see some changes in our show... and there would be less distance  between the show ring and the commercial producer. That is my theory anyways. Some of these show ring fads ( that is exactly what they are) have no real benefit in real world conditions and some are even detrimental. ( I regress back to my rant on the big square hip on females that is desirable in females in the show ring, and I truly believe that this is resulting in more and more females that cannot calve a normal sized calf without assistance. A square hip is fine, if the slope ratio from hooks to pins is proper. I love the look that a big square hip gives a female, and I am OK with it if it doesn't alter Mother Nature's design).  I am not putting all college judges in this basket, as I have seen some excellent college judges, that obviously have a connection to the real world yet. A person can no more put all college trained judges in the same basket as one can all cattle from a particular bloodline. If I may commend shows here in Canada, I think the selection of judges has not gone to the extreme I see in the US. I also believe this is why I feel there is far less disconnect between the sectors of the industry here in Canada.If you look at the judges selected at many of the leading shows in Canada, it usually is a cattle breeder. For example, at Canadian Western Agribition, which is the largest show in Canada, it has been many years since I can remember a none practicing cattle breeder judge a show. This is no guarantee that the judging is good, but I do think it does keep our shows a little closer based on what the industry needs. It also creates an atmosphere where there is less emphasis is placed on the award winners and people make their own decisions on what they like themselves.

Like most things in life, good things are always taken to an extreme. In many parts of N America, good hair is an important factor, but it is not more important than some other economical considerations. In selecting show cattle, hair is oftentimes one of the most important considerations, and I am assuming that this is because a good clipper with an a hair ball of an animal can cover a multitude of inadequacies.  Try to market an animal with abnormal amounts of hair to an Australian breeder. It doesn't work very good. With their conditions, too much hair is a very bad trait. We need cattle with hair here, in most areas, but too much hair can create many problems as well. How many commercial operations do you know that will take the time to sheer their entire herds before going to grass?   I know of some purebred breeders who do this and I would suggest that this is obviously a situation where we have allowed the show ring to move our industry away from common sense issues. In my world, I like cows that work for me, rather than me just working for them. And I still believe that cattle shows are an important part of marketing my cattle and I spend a pile of money each year to make this happen.

I do believe there is a definite place for cattle shows in our industry. I do believe that a cattle show should  be an educational experience for those in attendance. Probably this is why so many college trained judges get picked... because they have all the canned reasons and are trained in public speaking on a mic in front of crowds of people. I must admit that I get a sick feeling when I hear some of these judges try to baffle the audience with their canned idiotic reasons that have no relationship with anything other than fads and fancies. In my perfect world, I would wish for an industry where there was more emphasis placed on showing breeding cattle rather than just breeding show cattle.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Shorthorns4us on September 10, 2010, 03:06:00 PM
Wow- JIT- well put!
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: flacowman on September 10, 2010, 03:09:48 PM
I move that we somehow put JIT's above post in every magazine that is even slightly show oriented on the Continent.  Very well said!  (clapping) (clapping) (clapping)
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Okotoks on September 10, 2010, 03:16:52 PM
I agree. Well put JIT! We need to make the show ring reflect our business -beef production-   <beer>
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Aussie on September 10, 2010, 05:01:11 PM
I agree JIT from the out side looking in the breed is trying the blame everyone else for problems of your own doing. Whining about the black hided myth is fine but at least they have a united front and are working to get rid of genetic defects not chase them. Shorthorns do preform well on grass and in feedlots they are great maternal cattle and have a lot to offer.
As someone said more
 <beer>
Less
 (argue)
Shorthorn breeders use your assets and just get on with it. JMO
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: E6 Durhams on September 10, 2010, 06:33:53 PM
I agree JIT from the out side looking in the breed is trying the blame everyone else for problems of your own doing. Whining about the black hided myth is fine but at least they have a united front and are working to get rid of genetic defects not chase them. Shorthorns do preform well on grass and in feedlots they are great maternal cattle and have a lot to offer.
As someone said more
 <beer>
Less
 (argue)
Shorthorn breeders use your assets and just get on with it. JMO
Sorry but Black Angus breeders are about as divivded as any I have seen. I put them in three catagories........... 1.) The angus the semen pimps push and call them performance oriented. 2.) The show lines in Angus cattle that have as much hair as the show cattle and 3.) the old school maternally oriented, linebreeding group who hate the other two and argue all the time.

Red Angus is what Shorthorns need to model after IMO. Record all the data and report it. Keep it a maternal breed and let the commercial man cross with terminal bulls for the feedlot.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: upthecreek on September 10, 2010, 08:39:04 PM
Well said JIT   (clapping)  As 4H leader I am trying to teach my members to stay away from "show cattle" and show breeding stock and good functional steers that will hang a good carcass.  I agree that hear in Canada and particularly in Manitoba the distance from the cow herd and feedlot is not nearly as big as in the US. 

As someone who is starting in the shorthorn breed, the cattle are great, but we need to sell them better.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: elmo radke on September 12, 2010, 08:15:30 PM
Cripes, Grant.  We are talking about whether the breed will be back to #3 or #4 and you bring up shows....who cares about a darn show.  How can a breed get more registrations?  I believe that it is not though a halter, it is through cattlemen with "herds" of cattle believing in, producing, marketing, and registering shorthorn cattle.  Maybe I am crazy, but it really, in my humble opinion, boils down to that.  Please tell me that I am crazy.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: justintime on September 12, 2010, 08:49:38 PM
Cripes, Grant.  We are talking about whether the breed will be back to #3 or #4 and you bring up shows....who cares about a darn show.  How can a breed get more registrations?  I believe that it is not though a halter, it is through cattlemen with "herds" of cattle believing in, producing, marketing, and registering shorthorn cattle.  Maybe I am crazy, but it really, in my humble opinion, boils down to that.  Please tell me that I am crazy.


You are 100% correct Troy,and I could not agree with you more. My comments were only meant to respond to feeder duck's comments about how the breed has backed itself into a corner. I think you will agree with me, that there are very few breeders east of the Mississippi who care about selling bulls( or females for that matter) to commercial producers. We have the same divide here in Canada between east and west. My point is that if the breed has backed itself into a corner, I think we can also blame ourselves. I expect my herd is much like yours. The commercial man is my main concern and always will be.My main focus has changed over the years and while there was always a commercial componet in it, today the commercial sector is the main part of my focus.  Back to the original discussion, whether the Shorthorn breed will ever get to 3 or 4 th position  in breed popularity. The short answer is NO. It will not happen at least in my lifetime, and it won't happen until something happens to bring the biggest black breed off it's throne. I do believe that there is room for some significant breed growth and I think we are starting to see it in some areas. There are Shorthorn breeders in my area who are selling almost twice as many bulls as they did a decade ago.I am selling over twice as many as I did a decade ago, and my next goal is to see a 25% increase in that in the next 5 years. I think it is possible.  A decade ago, the closest Shorthorn breeder to me was in North Dakota. Ten years later, there are seven Shorthorn breeders who live closer than him. It takes time and an real pile of work and commitment. It is one thing to have a goal but it is only achievable if you believe in your goal and have the product the market wants. No goals will ever be achieved if all we do is blame our problems on someone else.

I apologize if my last comments were off base from the original intent of this thread. I was only commenting that shows are a big part of this breed, and I think how they are run is a factor to some of what is happening in the breed.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Davis Shorthorns on September 13, 2010, 07:04:39 AM
Cripes, Grant.  We are talking about whether the breed will be back to #3 or #4 and you bring up shows....who cares about a darn show.  How can a breed get more registrations?  I believe that it is not though a halter, it is through cattlemen with "herds" of cattle believing in, producing, marketing, and registering shorthorn cattle.  Maybe I am crazy, but it really, in my humble opinion, boils down to that.  Please tell me that I am crazy.

well we know that you are crazy, but you are right. 
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: E6 Durhams on September 13, 2010, 08:22:24 AM
Cripes, Grant.  We are talking about whether the breed will be back to #3 or #4 and you bring up shows....who cares about a darn show.  How can a breed get more registrations?  I believe that it is not though a halter, it is through cattlemen with "herds" of cattle believing in, producing, marketing, and registering shorthorn cattle.  Maybe I am crazy, but it really, in my humble opinion, boils down to that.  Please tell me that I am crazy.


You are 100% correct Troy,and I could not agree with you more. My comments were only meant to respond to feeder duck's comments about how the breed has backed itself into a corner. I think you will agree with me, that there are very few breeders east of the Mississippi who care about selling bulls( or females for that matter) to commercial producers. We have the same divide here in Canada between east and west. My point is that if the breed has backed itself into a corner, I think we can also blame ourselves. I expect my herd is much like yours. The commercial man is my main concern and always will be.My main focus has changed over the years and while there was always a commercial componet in it, today the commercial sector is the main part of my focus.  Back to the original discussion, whether the Shorthorn breed will ever get to 3 or 4 th position  in breed popularity. The short answer is NO. It will not happen at least in my lifetime, and it won't happen until something happens to bring the biggest black breed off it's throne. I do believe that there is room for some significant breed growth and I think we are starting to see it in some areas. There are Shorthorn breeders in my area who are selling almost twice as many bulls as they did a decade ago.I am selling over twice as many as I did a decade ago, and my next goal is to see a 25% increase in that in the next 5 years. I think it is possible.  A decade ago, the closest Shorthorn breeder to me was in North Dakota. Ten years later, there are seven Shorthorn breeders who live closer than him. It takes time and an real pile of work and commitment. It is one thing to have a goal but it is only achievable if you believe in your goal and have the product the market wants. No goals will ever be achieved if all we do is blame our problems on someone else.

I apologize if my last comments were off base from the original intent of this thread. I was only commenting that shows are a big part of this breed, and I think how they are run is a factor to some of what is happening in the breed.

Thats the spirit JIT, keep the glass half empty. Your not that old ! The day mat come sooner than you think. I live east of the Mississippi and I could care less about showing. I can think of a bunch of breeders east of the Miss who do not breed for show. It's happening right before our eyes IMO. Capiche is knocking them dead for Select right now and the calves are recieving good reviews. Call Aaron Rasmussen at A@T and see what he thinks. Ask him how shorties are doing n his neck of the woods. Thats the heart of cow country in the US. If they are working there, they can work alot of places.

Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: justintime on September 13, 2010, 09:36:22 AM
Cripes, Grant.  We are talking about whether the breed will be back to #3 or #4 and you bring up shows....who cares about a darn show.  How can a breed get more registrations?  I believe that it is not though a halter, it is through cattlemen with "herds" of cattle believing in, producing, marketing, and registering shorthorn cattle.  Maybe I am crazy, but it really, in my humble opinion, boils down to that.  Please tell me that I am crazy.


You are 100% correct Troy,and I could not agree with you more. My comments were only meant to respond to feeder duck's comments about how the breed has backed itself into a corner. I think you will agree with me, that there are very few breeders east of the Mississippi who care about selling bulls( or females for that matter) to commercial producers. We have the same divide here in Canada between east and west. My point is that if the breed has backed itself into a corner, I think we can also blame ourselves. I expect my herd is much like yours. The commercial man is my main concern and always will be.My main focus has changed over the years and while there was always a commercial componet in it, today the commercial sector is the main part of my focus.  Back to the original discussion, whether the Shorthorn breed will ever get to 3 or 4 th position  in breed popularity. The short answer is NO. It will not happen at least in my lifetime, and it won't happen until something happens to bring the biggest black breed off it's throne. I do believe that there is room for some significant breed growth and I think we are starting to see it in some areas. There are Shorthorn breeders in my area who are selling almost twice as many bulls as they did a decade ago.I am selling over twice as many as I did a decade ago, and my next goal is to see a 25% increase in that in the next 5 years. I think it is possible.  A decade ago, the closest Shorthorn breeder to me was in North Dakota. Ten years later, there are seven Shorthorn breeders who live closer than him. It takes time and an real pile of work and commitment. It is one thing to have a goal but it is only achievable if you believe in your goal and have the product the market wants. No goals will ever be achieved if all we do is blame our problems on someone else.

I apologize if my last comments were off base from the original intent of this thread. I was only commenting that shows are a big part of this breed, and I think how they are run is a factor to some of what is happening in the breed.

Thats the spirit JIT, keep the glass half empty. Your not that old ! The day mat come sooner than you think. I live east of the Mississippi and I could care less about showing. I can think of a bunch of breeders east of the Miss who do not breed for show. It's happening right before our eyes IMO. Capiche is knocking them dead for Select right now and the calves are recieving good reviews. Call Aaron Rasmussen at A@T and see what he thinks. Ask him how shorties are doing n his neck of the woods. Thats the heart of cow country in the US. If they are working there, they can work alot of places.





I am at a complete loss, as to what you read into my last comment. I did not say anything about there being breeders east of the Mississippi who do not breed to show.They are probably more breeders who do not show than there are those that do.  What I meant was I do not know of more than a handful of breeders east of the Mississippi who raise keep enough bulls to have their own bull sale or even have a large enough selection of bulls to attract a commerical man to their yard. There are a few, but not many. Most of the herds in the eastern parts of the US and Canada are smaller and it harder to offer a good selection of bulls. I am sure there are some breeders who are doing a great job of moving the majority of their bulls into commercial herds, but don't know of many.There are some larger herds in your part of the world, ( by larger, I mean over 100 breeding females) but I cannot think of more than one or two who would market more than 10-15 % of their male calves born as breeding animals.  Most of the breeders I speak to in the eastern US tell me, that they can get more money for a Shorthorn steer at weaning, than they can for a yearling bull. Until that changes, it is going to be hard to see the major breed growth this breed will need to move up the ladder to 3rd or 4th place. I firmly believe that any breed who wants to have serious breed growth needs to have a strong commercial side of it, and that also includes having a strong commercial bull market. That is not happening ... at least not fast enough. That said, if you think it is up to the breed association to make this happen, you care defeated before you even start. It takes a dedicated effort on the part of the breeders, and they have to offer a product that will make the commercial man have to stop and think. It does not happen over night, and many breeders get part way and then give up. If the show side of the breed is not producing the type of animals that work in the commercial sector, what is stopping you or anyone else from producing a product that will work in it? Absolutely nothing. The genetics are there. You just have to add some serious hard work and a good product.

And what do you mean about my keeping the glass half empty? I do not think I have ever been more pumped up about the future of the Shorthorn breed,at least in my part of the world, in my lifetime. I think you may be the first person to ever accuse me of having my glass half empty. Although I am excited about the progress we have seen in commercial sales of Shorthorn bulls and females here, I also fully realize that the Shorthorn breed will not ever gain enough popularity to be 3rd or 4th in breed popularity... which is the original topic presented in this thread. That does not mean we cannot have some major growth. In order for Shorthorns getting to 3rd or 4th place they would have to replace one or more of these breeds, Angus, Hereford, Simmental, Red Angus or Charolais and maybe a couple others. I don't see that happening.So what exactly is wrong with the Shorthorn breed getting to 6th in popularity.. or even 8th? If we can get to a place where anyone who wants to raise Shorthorns and provides the promotion that is needed, and can make a living doing it, is there anything wrong with that? Would it be terrible if the Shorthorn breed continued on in future decades with a strong show ring sector, if we could also develop a strong commercial sector? We have the genetics to do both, and if you don't agree with that, you haven't studied many of the genetics we have available.  Does that make my glass half empty?   I suspect it makes me a realist more than anything. Does that mean I think there is no future for this breed? Absolutely not !Like I said I cannot remember a time in my lifetime, when so I was so excited about this breed starting to get used more and more in commercial herds.... at least here in Canada.

And please explain what Capiche has to do with what I said? I am as happy as anyone, that there is finally a good Shorthorn bull in a major AI stud. I am excited that he is getting used and used hard. That is great to see. That is one small step in the gain of Shorthorn popularity, but it is just that... a very small step. The mindset of a pile of breeders has to also change in order for this breed to change it's position. So if that makes my glass half empty... I suspect there are far more with their glass close to being dry.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: aj on September 13, 2010, 10:21:49 AM
Will there be new designations for bc,ac,ag and bg in the shorthorn idustry when all the old school people die off? Birth weights we can live with? Before Cagwin(BC). AC(same). AG(after Grant). So Improver would have been born what 20 years AC. Birth weights starting coming down in what 1ag. And the world found true peace after aj? Or is that to pc? Then you have LT,BS(Before Snyder) my favorite. BD....before Dividend. We gotta get one for bolz and Hunsley to help designate time periods and cultures. You have a Clovis culture. How about. ABC After Bolz's crash. bds would be "before double stuff. AHBI would be After Herd Bull Issue possibly?
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Okotoks on September 13, 2010, 12:53:48 PM
Cripes, Grant.  We are talking about whether the breed will be back to #3 or #4 and you bring up shows....who cares about a darn show.  How can a breed get more registrations?  I believe that it is not though a halter, it is through cattlemen with "herds" of cattle believing in, producing, marketing, and registering shorthorn cattle.  Maybe I am crazy, but it really, in my humble opinion, boils down to that.  Please tell me that I am crazy.
I think Grant was just referring to how the emphasis on the show ring hasn't really helped the breed to grow because it is often so far removed from the commercial industry. I really think the breed needs to collect data, run more steer tests and advertise and promote in commercial publications. Crossing shorthorns is a no brainer we just have to get the info out there. if we can increase bull sales to the commercial sector our registration numbers will grow.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: oakbar on September 13, 2010, 02:03:10 PM
Wow,  everybody seems to be chasing their tail on this one and no one is getting any closer to changing anyone's minds about anything.  Some may have even(unintentionally) caused hard feelings.   

Here's how the simple Iowegian sees it:

1.  As long as we have CAB commanding a premium in the U.S. market, the Shorthorn breed is fighting an uphill battle for more market share   
2.   If you don't pay close attention to detail, using Shorthorn bulls may cause BW & CE problems more quickly than a few of the other breeds   3.   Shorthorns have many positive characteristics to offer the industry(maternal characteristics, fleshing ability, cutability)   
4.   Breeders are striving to correct any deficiencies(real or percieved) in the breed to satisfy commercial and show ring customers
5.   Neither the show ring nor the commercial world should be a stand alone entity--in my opinion they are not mutually exclusive today
6.   The Shorthorn breed has not done as good as some other breeds at measuring performance, etc. for the commercial industry
7.   No one line of Shorthorn(or any other breed's)genetics can answer all needs for all cattlemen--you have to plan your matings


IMHO  the rest is just semantics and opinion and if you want to spend a lot of time chasing your own or someone else's tail continue your debate.   I guess I'm more interested in doing something that actually makes a difference---I'll study the genetics and performance of my herd and those of other breeders, encourage the board to emphasize commercial traits more through gathering performance data on our animals, and support the use of judges at our shows who emphasize both sides of the equation.   This may be a "Pollyanna" way of looking at things, but if we don't make a personal commitment to move things in the desired direction we can't expect anyone else to do it for us.   To quote one of my favorite perveyors of philosophy(Forrest Gump)"That's all I'm going to say about that!!"



Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: E6 Durhams on September 13, 2010, 08:18:13 PM
JIT relax, all I meant was your comment about shorthorns not getting to # 3 or # 4  in your lifetime. No more. It can happen.
My comments on Capiche were look at this bull............ he is actually making customers happy and he is a shorthorn and he is in a major stud. he is being proven in cattle country. Maybe not everyone likes him but by God it is a bull gettin a foot in the door.


Breed for what works for you and hope it carries over to commercial folks.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Aussie on September 14, 2010, 07:30:45 PM

Breed for what works for you and hope it carries over to commercial folks.
I don't want to attack the man there is enough of that on here but this quote IMO is the wrong way around. Shouldn't we talk to our commercial customers find out what they want, guide them, but ultimately breed bulls to suit them that they want. I mean the customer is always right. No good having a pen of bulls no one wants because you like them. Work with your client look at his cows. Explain they can use bigger bw bulls on mature cows, quicker growth more weaning weight and supply some hfr bulls. The personal touch works wonders.
On spreading the word
I am sure some of you have done this to break in to the market. It takes balls and knowledge. When I was involved in another breed before I gave in to the black hide myth I visited many commerical cattle men looked at their cows and gave away 100's of staws of semen on home bred bulls I knew would work. Did take time but eventually sold bulls. So the customer is right but can be guided.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: E6 Durhams on September 14, 2010, 07:51:33 PM

Breed for what works for you and hope it carries over to commercial folks.
I don't want to attack the man there is enough of that on here but this quote IMO is the wrong way around. Shouldn't we talk to our commercial customers find out what they want, guide them, but ultimately breed bulls to suit them that they want. I mean the customer is always right. No good having a pen of bulls no one wants because you like them. Work with your client look at his cows. Explain they can use bigger bw bulls on mature cows, quicker growth more weaning weight and supply some hfr bulls. The personal touch works wonders.
On spreading the word
I am sure some of you have done this to break in to the market. It takes balls and knowledge. When I was involved in another breed before I gave in to the black hide myth I visited many commerical cattle men looked at their cows and gave away 100's of staws of semen on home bred bulls I knew would work. Did take time but eventually sold bulls. So the customer is right but can be guided.

I mean breed what works for you in YOUR enviroment and hope it carries over to the commercial man. I am learning this the hard way. I treat my cows as commercial cows which I think all purebred breeders should do. If you do this and are strict and honest, the commercial people in your area will seek you out. That is all i meant.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: E6 Durhams on September 14, 2010, 08:11:53 PM
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m90/5barx/566788428_2010092841_01.jpg)
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m90/5barx/566787444_2010089120_01.jpg)

This is the type of bull I am trying to make for the commercial guy. This bull has not been pampered at all. He has bred about 20 cows as a long yearling (not much I know) but he has held up very good and he is currently looking for more work this fall and spring. I took the pics so they are not very good but you can see well enough.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Okotoks on September 14, 2010, 08:26:24 PM
([url]http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m90/5barx/566788428_2010092841_01.jpg[/url])
([url]http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m90/5barx/566787444_2010089120_01.jpg[/url])

This is the type of bull I am trying to make for the commercial guy. This bull has not been pampered at all. He has bred about 20 cows as a long yearling (not much I know) but he has held up very good and he is currently looking for more work this fall and spring. I took the pics so they are not very good but you can see well enough.

Now those are useful bulls. Nice length and that bottom bull has a nice long hip and good hindquarter. We can sell that type to commercial breeders in our area.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: E6 Durhams on September 14, 2010, 08:29:16 PM
Sorry should have said. Both pics are of the same bull just a rear shot for Mark T!
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: E6 Durhams on September 14, 2010, 08:31:21 PM
The bull from Sneed's is in the backround on both pics. O0
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Aussie on September 14, 2010, 09:49:42 PM
Sorry misunderstood. Looking at those great calves on the other thread you are on the right track then. Great all round cattle.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: E6 Durhams on September 15, 2010, 10:28:08 AM
Sorry misunderstood. Looking at those great calves on the other thread you are on the right track then. Great all round cattle.

Thanks aussie!
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: flacowman on September 15, 2010, 10:55:19 AM
We kept a few shorties but have just sold most of the herd to do a little rebuilding, and we happened to sell them all, but I would say that any breed that wants to go their own way and NOT ask the commercial cattlemen what they want and need in seedstock animals is on it's way down.  Angus cattle have no advantage over any other breed other than an amazing marketing scheme and they have grown to have the variety to please almost anyone who isn't diametrically opposed to black cattle.  If all breeds did that then the field would be more level.  JMHO y'all  <cowboy>
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Okotoks on September 16, 2010, 02:19:17 PM
We kept a few shorties but have just sold most of the herd to do a little rebuilding, and we happened to sell them all, but I would say that any breed that wants to go their own way and NOT ask the commercial cattlemen what they want and need in seedstock animals is on it's way down.  Angus cattle have no advantage over any other breed other than an amazing marketing scheme and they have grown to have the variety to please almost anyone who isn't diametrically opposed to black cattle.  If all breeds did that then the field would be more level.  JMHO y'all  <cowboy>
I agree, if a breed isn't meeting the needs of commercial breeders you are left wth trading cattle between breeders and there is no chance of breed growth.
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: Okotoks on September 17, 2010, 10:52:48 AM
We kept a few shorties but have just sold most of the herd to do a little rebuilding, and we happened to sell them all, but I would say that any breed that wants to go their own way and NOT ask the commercial cattlemen what they want and need in seedstock animals is on it's way down.  Angus cattle have no advantage over any other breed other than an amazing marketing scheme and they have grown to have the variety to please almost anyone who isn't diametrically opposed to black cattle.  If all breeds did that then the field would be more level.  JMHO y'all  <cowboy>
I agree, if a breed isn't meeting the needs of commercial breeders you are left wth trading cattle between breeders and there is no chance of breed growth.
That said I think there are enough shorthorn breeders focusing on the commercial market to regain a lot of the market share. (thumbsup)
Title: Re: Shorthorn Question
Post by: ELBEE on September 20, 2010, 11:09:36 AM
Show cattle aside.

Market price -minus .20 Cents per lb. = 0 Shorthorn appearing cattle!

My suburbanite customer doesn't know the difference between birth weight EPD, and EPT preg test! They don't even know what a Shorthorn is, now Longhorn or Durham, yes.

CAB: Greatest marketing strategy ever invented.

 CAB is my friend! Consumers are looking for an alternative to (over priced) CAB, or the gray matter stink meat at Piggly-Wiggly. They will pay 3-bucks-a pound for 150 lbs. (1 quarter beef) for their freezer. As long as it's a premium product that fits their budget. Oh-my, a niche for Shorthorns!

My biggest concern is losing the private (mom and pop) processing plants. At that point the breed, as a co-op, will have to take this niche national. I believe that's allready been dreamed of! (right Nik?)

If all this falls apart before I'm too old to care. I'll have a herd of black hided Shorthorns so fast your head will spin.