Shorthorn Question

  Don't get me started!!!!!!!

Shorthorn/ angus cross????????????????? (clapping) I'm reading this smiling from ear to ear. Now if I could just find that older rancher who was looking to help out a young one and build some awesome cows in the process. I still got a strong back and a somewhat weak mind so I am ready. My cows come with me and I can A.I.!!!!!! <beer>

Shorthorn / Red angus bred heifer on grass

3/4 shorthorn 1/4 red angus coming two bull raised on grass. Pictures are from my phone so not the best

Shorty/Angus cross has worked for me for a while - love that cross. Makes great momma cows for sure. Bred all my shorty heifers to Northern Improvement this past fall and the calves that were just born (all unassisted) look great.

Please understand, I'm not knocking the breed - I know there are Shorthorn cattle out there that'll work in 'most any scenarios, but I work at a sale barn and I'm telling you that Shorthorns have a long, long way to go to gain any kind of commercial acceptance in this part of the country.
Most of the Shorthorns around here are one extreme or the other - either little no growing clubby bred ones or big framey one gutted purebreds, and stocker and feeder buyers have plenty of reason not to want either one.  IMO, the fastest road to acceptance is to turn 'em solid red, or very nearly so - at this point even high quality roans or paints are going to take a major hit.  It makes for a viscous circle though, because knowing this, the Shorthorn breeders are trying even harder to produce something they can sell for a premium as a show calf to make up for the hit they're gonna take on the others at the sale barn.

I am sorry but the last thing we need to do is worry about solid red color.... the best ones are always roan!!! if people think uniformity/ quality  = solid color they should get out of the cattle business

DLD said:

Please understand, I'm not knocking the breed - I know there are Shorthorn cattle out there that'll work in 'most any scenarios, but I work at a sale barn and I'm telling you that Shorthorns have a long, long way to go to gain any kind of commercial acceptance in this part of the country.
Most of the Shorthorns around here are one extreme or the other - either little no growing clubby bred ones or big framey one gutted purebreds, and stocker and feeder buyers have plenty of reason not to want either one.  IMO, the fastest road to acceptance is to turn 'em solid red, or very nearly so - at this point even high quality roans or paints are going to take a major hit.  It makes for a viscous circle though, because knowing this, the Shorthorn breeders are trying even harder to produce something they can sell for a premium as a show calf to make up for the hit they're gonna take on the others at the sale barn.

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This way of thinking is ignorant and drives me crazy. Yet it is tthe majority of sale barns that run like this.  No crack on you DLD, you are just speakin from your what you have seen. This line of thinkin would fall under the Black Hided Myth Assoc. and should be one of the first orders of business to eradicate.

If you get into the Durham Red type deal.....at least be aware of Red Angus defects. Its not wide spread but it does require some study. I have seemed to lucked out.

DLD is just stating the obvious.  That is why the shortie breed will fail in the long run. 1. The blind eye - not willing to see the weakness in their breed and not willing to change it for acceptance.  2. The "your attacking me." whine. whine. whine.

Your sounding like the president. Blame everyone else for your problems, and stay the course that got the bad reputation. Not printing BW's, EPD's, or defect status in catalogs is just the tip of the iceberg.  The problems go way beyond the actual cattle.

aj said:

If you get into the Durham Red type deal.....at least be aware of Red Angus defects. Its not wide spread but it does require some study. I have seemed to lucked out.

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Me to. I have about 20 straws of the old Canyon bull that will probably never get used. Knock on wood but I have been lucky and avoided all defects n shorties, black and red angus. Thank the Lord.

Show Heifer your bad expierience was with some of the big dogs not the whole breed. You were steered into drinking the punch and now you have to pay the price, there are many good people and many good lines to work with. I will GIVE you any semen on my shorthorn or durham red bulls to try. No strings attached. Ten straws or 20 I don't care. Not showy but they work for me in my enviroment. In the past week I have sold a durham red bull to a commercial angus hereford guy. The bull was dirty and not clipped and blown out. He loved it. Now if the bull will breed like I think he can, I have a new customer! One customer at a time is the only way to turn it around. He saw a bull I placed at another commercial farm and came to see what I was up to.  One customer at a time.

There are a lot of things on this post to agree and disagree with. 
I am optimistic-- the commercial market and feedlot market is there- it is just going to take some more time and unity within the breed to produce and market a large group of feedlot accepted steers and heifers to a feedlot group.  Results will spread. 
I fight this every year in my area- black, black, black.  I am working on Durham Reds also-- always use semen and cows that are tested defect free.  The Red Angus angle in my area seems to give some acceptability and credibility to the feeder calves.  I am forturnate to have a sale barn that accepts colored calves and they don't get hit as hard as some of the other area sale barns. 
The Shorthorn Country article in the new issue gives some results of the Great State Feedout and it sounds like the Shorthorns made money and had very promising carcass results.  We track what we feed out-- my numbers are small, but the carcass data is what I would want to see as a commercial feeder.  Now please ASA-- go to the feedyards with the data and push-- go to the order buyers and push-- the squeaky wheel will get the grease.
I would really like to see the actual grid sheets with the numbers for the whole group.  I hope the ASA is able to put that information out there.
Again- optimistic and JMO.

Your right Trevor, a few bad apples spoiled the whole box. Sure did. And I have paid the price. To the tune of close to 10,000. Isn't that enough? Trust me, those the screwed will never, and I repeat never, get a kind word from my mouth. THAT is the price THEY will pay.

Shorthorns4us - you are right also. By crossing the shorties with red angus, you are "reinventing" the shortie breed to make it acceptable to the commercial producer - making them solid colored, and have acceptable birth weights. If I understood the question, it was refering to purebred shorties, not crossbreds.  In fact, that is a good comparison, because I see the shortie breed as very comparable to the Chi's. The couldn't make the commercial cattleman accept them, so therefore they opened up their registry and created the "Chi Wand" of which if waved over any bovine, it could be considered a Chi. That is where I see the shorties going. Down a road to where to be classified as a shortie, all you will have to do is wave the magic wand over them and say "You are now a shortie" and pay your $30 to register and you have yourself a shortie. Is that what you want? really?  That is what your doing with the durham red thing.... reinventing a product that isn't working.

I myself laugh at the CAB beef program.... doesn't even have to be angus to qualify, but, you HAVE to give credit to the black angus assoc... they are king of the marketing machine and sad as it maybe, that is what rules.

I will give you my 2 cents on the original question.  Will the shorthorn breed get back to the #3 or #4 breed in size.  The answer is NO.  Why?  There are about 3 big reasons.

1.  There are very, very few breeders with over 50 cows that have any interest in the commercial bull market.  The quickest way to get into the commercial market is to sell BULLS.  There is not one DV auction or Superior livestock auction that offers ANY shorthorn bulls.  How many red angus, angus, simmental, hereford or gelbvieh sales are across the united states that 50-300 bulls in a sale?  A bunch.  This breed has none and won't because no one that has shorthorns can offer those kind of numbers of bulls to look at.  Bull buyers don't travel much anymore.  The bulls that are exibited at Denver in the yards is the closest thing to anything that resembles an offering of SH bulls, but they are not uniform in make and kind like you would see at a lare seedstock breeder's place with any other breed.  To get bigger, shorthorn needs some breeders of high numbers of cattle to buy in to the value of shorthorn and sell them.
2.    The ability of current breeders to "enhance" a commercial herd is not as good as it should be.  The carcass data is the biggest piece of information that the ASA has put together and it is dynomite.  However, if breeders don't use this tool to offer up in pubilcations, advertisements, flyers, etc., it will be nothing more than a piece of paper.  Red angus built their association based on DATA, they use the heck out of it.  Shorthorn breeders use purple banners, flushes, hair and other promotion that the commercial folks could care less about.  Data integrity has to be at the forefront of all breeders IF they want to sell to commercial operations. 
3.  Semen companies are not promoting shorthorn genetics.  There is a small offering, but if you look at ABS, where are the shorthorn bulls located?  In the clubbie section.  If ABS, Genex, Bull Barn genetics thought they could make money off of promoting a shorthorn bull, they would.  I know that recently there was a bull bought by Genex, and that gives me a ray of hope.  Ya'll need to understand that many, many, many commercial folks rest their breeding decisions on the ABS rep's advise.  ABS will not risk business on anything other than a sure bet.  How much Mytty In Focus semen did they sell in one year?  A bunch.  Why?  He was their choice of bull to promote.  Why?  Awesome DATA, good breeding, HIGH ACCURACY DATA.



I have hope that it will be good for the association to grow, but just can't see it in the future without some of the things listed above changing.

Show Heifer- great point with the Chi example.  How many true Chi cattle do we see?  I did divert from the original question, but it all comes around in a big circle. 
I know that we are originially talking about purebreds, but I like the options that the Durham Red is offering in the meantime.  I have several cows that are just awesome cows- they are the best of both worlds. 
I would prefer that the purebreds were widely accepted, but in the meantime I do have bills to pay and have to find an option that still allows me to use the breed. 
Great thread!

Show heifer, ten grand is plenty and once again I apologize for how the so called sales consultants treated you. You make a good point with the Chi's. I will say however that the durham red cross would not be anything without the shorthorn. Red angus are just as vital. The cross either red or black is my finest work yet and I will keep doing it.

Personally, I have really enjoyed the conversation here. I guess the race is on to see who will be the breeders that accept the challenge and take it head on. If I had the resources I would have the biggest damn herd of shorties you have ever seen. I plan on breeding my durham reds to shorthorns for the remainder of their production lives.

M Bar makes some very good points that need to be handled. So if we r nothing but a bunch of little breeders, then lets put aside the B.S. and get something done. Lots of good people within the breed to build from. I'm a nobody but I will do whatever I can to improve this breed because I believe in it.  I may not agree with all of you and you may not agree with me but we all love shorthorns and we are all in the same boat. When the little guys are doing well, the big guys will be too. Any investors out there that want to buy the Basin Angus Ranch? Only 12,000 acres for 12,000,000. I will run it for you and we can fill it up with shorthorns! I can see it now. We will mob graze the whole place and prove shorthorns value. <cowboy>

One customer at a time.

trevorgreycattleco said:

Show heifer, ten grand is plenty and once again I apologize for how the so called sales consultants treated you. You make a good point with the Chi's. I will say however that the durham red cross would not be anything without the shorthorn. Red angus are just as vital. The cross either red or black is my finest work yet and I will keep doing it.

Personally, I have really enjoyed the conversation here. I guess the race is on to see who will be the breeders that accept the challenge and take it head on. If I had the resources I would have the biggest damn herd of shorties you have ever seen. I plan on breeding my durham reds to shorthorns for the remainder of their production lives.

M Bar makes some very good points that need to be handled. So if we r nothing but a bunch of little breeders, then lets put aside the B.S. and get something done. Lots of good people within the breed to build from. I'm a nobody but I will do whatever I can to improve this breed because I believe in it.  I may not agree with all of you and you may not agree with me but we all love shorthorns and we are all in the same boat. When the little guys are doing well, the . big guys will be too. Any investors out there that want to buy the Basin Angus Ranch? Only 12,000 acres for 12,000,000. I will run it for you and we can fill it up with shorthorns! I can see it now. We will mob graze the whole place and prove shorthorns value. <cowboy>

One customer at a time.

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I disagree with MBAR respectfully... im small but have put bulls in large black herds. It has more to do with what you have and what you're doing. I dont think a purple banner helps the bull buyer image but if you exhibit the right stuff it never hurts. I didnt need Ron Bolze to tell me we have a calving ease problem 10 yrs ago??
Show Heifer . Starting a shorthorn show herd in Iowa .... probably not a smart idea. We are revising our web page- but trust me under show heifers for sale- will be John Sullivans number.
Why wait for a Association to do something ... there are so many SH influenced cattle not papered. My guess is that is where the growth is going to continue.

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We are revising our web page- but trust me under show heifers for sale- will be John Sullivans number.
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(clapping)  I applaud you Sue - that's definitely defining your breeding program (atleast what it's not)!  It's always tempting to try and have something for everyone and end up with a very motley crew and a directionless program.

DRB- I am not slamming SULL's extremely competitive show program. I've watched him dominant again and again so I figure  if you visit my web page I might as well tell where to go and find the best female to win. 
I figure they will need a bull later - looks like Nitro is working well with SULL breeding

trevorgreycattleco said:

Show heifer, ten grand is plenty and once again I apologize for how the so called sales consultants treated you. You make a good point with the Chi's. I will say however that the durham red cross would not be anything without the shorthorn. Red angus are just as vital. The cross either red or black is my finest work yet and I will keep doing it.

Personally, I have really enjoyed the conversation here. I guess the race is on to see who will be the breeders that accept the challenge and take it head on. If I had the resources I would have the biggest damn herd of shorties you have ever seen. I plan on breeding my durham reds to shorthorns for the remainder of their production lives.

M Bar makes some very good points that need to be handled. So if we r nothing but a bunch of little breeders, then lets put aside the B.S. and get something done. Lots of good people within the breed to build from. I'm a nobody but I will do whatever I can to improve this breed because I believe in it.  I may not agree with all of you and you may not agree with me but we all love shorthorns and we are all in the same boat. When the little guys are doing well, the big guys will be too. Any investors out there that want to buy the Basin Angus Ranch? Only 12,000 acres for 12,000,000. I will run it for you and we can fill it up with shorthorns! I can see it now. We will mob graze the whole place and prove shorthorns value. <cowboy>

One customer at a time.

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I agree. There are lots of good programs out there being run by some great people. If you have a goal and a focus there's no reason why you can't get market share. The breed is a very good product and the show ring over time has hurt more breeds and species than just the shorthorn. As soon as function and correctness are overshadowed the show ring will create a problem.