OH Breeder
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Want to get an idea of others opinion on asterisks free cattle
Shorty Folks
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TMJ Show Cattle
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I think if we were breeding "straight shorthorn" breeding cattle we would prefer asterisk free pedigree's. We breed for club calf terminal markets,so it doesn't bother us to use or keep a few "carriers". We breed around the carriers both ways and test all calves. I wish we didn't have this problem,but we do,so we diversify and keep our numbers low. Most all of the shorthorn breeders I know,this day and age have both carriers and non carriers to compete for "both" markets.
Doc
Well-known member
I get a couple of calls a year usually looking for asterik free cattle. I don't mean the ones like they do now , where so many generations removed it comes off. I mean the true "fullbloods". On the same note , they've still got to be good.
linnettejane
Well-known member
ive had a couple asterick frees...as far as going out in the field and picking out which ones are and which ones arent, i dont really see a difference and couldnt do it...but thats just me...
sjcc could elaborate more on this...i think at one time, his whole herd was asterick free...thats where i got mine from...and that line was from elbee leader (gizmo and image)...
sjcc could elaborate more on this...i think at one time, his whole herd was asterick free...thats where i got mine from...and that line was from elbee leader (gizmo and image)...
justintime
Well-known member
In my opinion, there is no such thing as a true fullblood Shorthorn.. or probably not of any other breed as well. That is why I have not felt it is necessary to retain an asterisk free herd. There are so many cattle in the closed herd book especially in both the US and Canada that should have an asterisk. One leading so called aterisk free bloodline that I know about goes back to a 1/2 Simmental female I purchased in Ontario in 1973. Another of the well known cow families goes back to some commercial heifers that were purchased in Montana of unknown breeding. At the time, the Canadian Shorthorn Association approved me to inspect cattle of unknown genetics and if they appeared to have some Shorthorn heritage, I could approve them and register them at 3/4 level IN THE APPENDIX HERDBOOK. The Appendix herd book was set up mainly as a way to bring many herds back into the breed that had quit registering cattle for several years. How many of these cattle got into the closed herd book was, there was a period of 5 years where the Association allowed cattle that had been bred up to purebred status to again go into the closed herd book with no asterisk.Then 5 years later this was reversed until about 4 years ago, when they again approved animals that had reached 99.3% purity to enter the closed herd book.
Almost every so called fullblood Shorthorn I have researched has Irish blood in their pedigree. When we brought the first Irish cattle into Canada, they had no pedigree status so we registered them in the Appendix herd book... because we felt that was where they belonged... if they belonged in the breed at all. One year later, some other breeders, made a Notice of Motion that the Irish cattle be allowed into the closed herd book. I went to the Annual meeting that year, because I felt that these cattle were of completely unknown bloodlines so they did not belong in the so called closed or fullblood herdbook. I was the only vote against this motion and I was one of the people who had imported the cattle. This was the final straw that made me decide to try to not concern myself too much on the asterisk or no asterisk issue.
I have been looking for a Shorthorn female for 3 or 4 years now that has no Irish, no appendix of any kind, no other breeding but that which goes completely back to Scottish bloodlines. A breeder in Brazil contacts me a couple times a year and wants to purchase embryos from these bloodlines. I have researched literally thousands of so called pure cattle in the last few years, and I have always arrived at something of unknown breeding.I thought I might be able to find at least one animal of this bloodline in Scotland. While I was there, I asked several breeders if they knew of any animals of this breeding. They all said they were gone. Most said that it was a very good thing too. The secretary of the British Shorthorn Society, told me that the Shorthorn breed only survived in Britain when the leading breeders added blood from outside the breed. When I visited with the McGillvary's whose Calrossie herd was one of the famous herd. known around the world, they even said that the cattle they had produced and sold around the world, now were all gone, and that they were not right for today's industry. In the 1950s they took 11 bulls to the Perth bull sale, in Scotland and averaged 10,000 guineas, or close to $40,000. Just think what this would be in today's dollars!!
When I attended the Graham Land and Cattle dispersal at Waverly, MN in 1974, I had a great visit with the head of the blood typing lab at Ohio State University. His lab did all the blood typing for the Shorthorn breed, as well as several other breeds at the time. He told me that , at that time, there were 8 Maine Anjou fullblood bulls that had been imported , that blood typed as purebred Shorthorns.He said that, in his opinion, these Maine cattle were closer to purebred Shorthorn than the Irish cattle were. Some of the Irish Shorthorns imported into North America had blood types that had no relationship with known Shorthorn blood types at the time.
I could go on and on. I have researched pedigrees for most of my life. You can find lots of " interesting stuff" in the background of today's so called fullblood or closed herd book cattle. It can range from the 1/2 blood Simmental cow I purchased in 1973, to Red and White Holstein blood through Illawara bloodlines that were allowed in the closed herdbook as purebreds. ILlawara cattle were only 5/8 milking Shorthorn and 3/8 Aussie native dairy cattle.
It is a free world and everyone is free to raise any type of cattle they wish to produce. I am not going to say one is better than another. If someone can find enjoyment, pay their bills and raise their families with any kind of cattle, they should be awarded for whatever they produce. I like animals for what they are... not whether they have an asterisk or not. In my opinion, 99% or more of any breed should be considered to be graded up from something. As I said, breed what you want to breed. Select the bloodlines you want to pursue, but at the same time, allow other breeders to do the same. An asterisk or no asterisk says nothing about quality... and unfortunately, it says about as much about purity.
I
Almost every so called fullblood Shorthorn I have researched has Irish blood in their pedigree. When we brought the first Irish cattle into Canada, they had no pedigree status so we registered them in the Appendix herd book... because we felt that was where they belonged... if they belonged in the breed at all. One year later, some other breeders, made a Notice of Motion that the Irish cattle be allowed into the closed herd book. I went to the Annual meeting that year, because I felt that these cattle were of completely unknown bloodlines so they did not belong in the so called closed or fullblood herdbook. I was the only vote against this motion and I was one of the people who had imported the cattle. This was the final straw that made me decide to try to not concern myself too much on the asterisk or no asterisk issue.
I have been looking for a Shorthorn female for 3 or 4 years now that has no Irish, no appendix of any kind, no other breeding but that which goes completely back to Scottish bloodlines. A breeder in Brazil contacts me a couple times a year and wants to purchase embryos from these bloodlines. I have researched literally thousands of so called pure cattle in the last few years, and I have always arrived at something of unknown breeding.I thought I might be able to find at least one animal of this bloodline in Scotland. While I was there, I asked several breeders if they knew of any animals of this breeding. They all said they were gone. Most said that it was a very good thing too. The secretary of the British Shorthorn Society, told me that the Shorthorn breed only survived in Britain when the leading breeders added blood from outside the breed. When I visited with the McGillvary's whose Calrossie herd was one of the famous herd. known around the world, they even said that the cattle they had produced and sold around the world, now were all gone, and that they were not right for today's industry. In the 1950s they took 11 bulls to the Perth bull sale, in Scotland and averaged 10,000 guineas, or close to $40,000. Just think what this would be in today's dollars!!
When I attended the Graham Land and Cattle dispersal at Waverly, MN in 1974, I had a great visit with the head of the blood typing lab at Ohio State University. His lab did all the blood typing for the Shorthorn breed, as well as several other breeds at the time. He told me that , at that time, there were 8 Maine Anjou fullblood bulls that had been imported , that blood typed as purebred Shorthorns.He said that, in his opinion, these Maine cattle were closer to purebred Shorthorn than the Irish cattle were. Some of the Irish Shorthorns imported into North America had blood types that had no relationship with known Shorthorn blood types at the time.
I could go on and on. I have researched pedigrees for most of my life. You can find lots of " interesting stuff" in the background of today's so called fullblood or closed herd book cattle. It can range from the 1/2 blood Simmental cow I purchased in 1973, to Red and White Holstein blood through Illawara bloodlines that were allowed in the closed herdbook as purebreds. ILlawara cattle were only 5/8 milking Shorthorn and 3/8 Aussie native dairy cattle.
It is a free world and everyone is free to raise any type of cattle they wish to produce. I am not going to say one is better than another. If someone can find enjoyment, pay their bills and raise their families with any kind of cattle, they should be awarded for whatever they produce. I like animals for what they are... not whether they have an asterisk or not. In my opinion, 99% or more of any breed should be considered to be graded up from something. As I said, breed what you want to breed. Select the bloodlines you want to pursue, but at the same time, allow other breeders to do the same. An asterisk or no asterisk says nothing about quality... and unfortunately, it says about as much about purity.
I
Jill
Well-known member
I voted doesn't matter, but all of them I own have one, so I guess I could say I would be more likely to purchase one with an asterisk
aj
Well-known member
I think that an asterisk doesn't matter. Even the cattle that don't have an asterisk probably(either through a mistake or purposely) have foreign blood in them. Wasn't the Enticer bull asterisk free but in actually out of a fullblood maine cow(but not on the paper). You have the Grizzly angus bull that throws horns and all kinds of stuff out there. The important thing is how the cattle breed anhow their pedigrees are stacked for economical important traits. Consistency is more important than purity in my opinion. You can have a frame score 9 shorthorn female and breed her to a frame 4 bull. The resulting calves will come out all over the place for frame scores. You could linebreed say Durham red half bloods to each other for 5 generations and get more consistent cattle for certain trait than purebred cattle that jump all oever the place following showring trends.jmo
r.n.reed
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- Joined
- Apr 29, 2008
- Messages
- 611
The star as they call it in Canada would not affect my decision to purchase if I felt the animal had a chance of reliably contributing to my breeding program goals.When I do occasionally purchase I look first at the program and their guiding principles and then search out an individual to use from that program.
Last weekend I delivered a couple of bulls to a cattleman in central Ne.and while I was out there I took the opportunity to spend a couple of days visiting with my friends the Cooksley's at Broken Bow.This might be the last pure herd of Shorthorns left in the world and one of the few that are actually relevant to the actual beef business.The herd is intensely line bred to the Scotch topped bloodlines of the 20's and 30's pre pony style and are raised under strictly commercial range setting conditions.Some of the parameters for culling include a 60 day calving period,structure,and weaning weights.They retain ownership on all steers and collect carcass data.For the last 5 yrs 70% choice yld gr.2 and 3s 1150lb at 15 to 16mo.has been the norm.Every calf is tagged and tattoed within hours of birth and detailed records are kept as they are very concerned with keeping the lineage correct and register from 70 to 100 hd a year.There have been several herds started from this herd in the last few years whose goal is to maintain purity.
Last weekend I delivered a couple of bulls to a cattleman in central Ne.and while I was out there I took the opportunity to spend a couple of days visiting with my friends the Cooksley's at Broken Bow.This might be the last pure herd of Shorthorns left in the world and one of the few that are actually relevant to the actual beef business.The herd is intensely line bred to the Scotch topped bloodlines of the 20's and 30's pre pony style and are raised under strictly commercial range setting conditions.Some of the parameters for culling include a 60 day calving period,structure,and weaning weights.They retain ownership on all steers and collect carcass data.For the last 5 yrs 70% choice yld gr.2 and 3s 1150lb at 15 to 16mo.has been the norm.Every calf is tagged and tattoed within hours of birth and detailed records are kept as they are very concerned with keeping the lineage correct and register from 70 to 100 hd a year.There have been several herds started from this herd in the last few years whose goal is to maintain purity.
OH Breeder
Well-known member
TMJ Show Cattle said:
I am not talking about THF vs THC. In the shorthorn program those cattle that are to be of pureblood are asterisks free. Read JIT's comment and it will explain a bunch.
OH Breeder
Well-known member
Jill said:
Jill do you all primarily raise for club calves or do you show at Shorthorn junior nationals etc? Reason I ask, some purebred breeders will try to only use asterisks free cattle. Most club folks don't care a whole lot about it.
Most of you on SP will have more calves born before lunch than I will have in an entire season. All of the cows that I have currently are 99% +. As AJ and JIT have mentioned, some of mine have some Irish, Australian, and Enticer. When I began gathering up a few Shorthorn cows my goal was to raise cattle that could be shown competetively, and be marketed commercially as well. Being able to provide an outcross
to Shorthorn producers Stateside was also kept in mind as a part of the program at some point.
Currently the majority of the cows in western Canada in Embryo marketing programs are high %, as well many of the sires having Semen marketed from them are also asterisk free.
There have recently been a growing number of Shorthorn bulls being marketed into commercial cattle operations through sales and privately, my guess would be that 90 % of these would be astrisk free.
The main reason that I am trying to keep my herd asterisk free is to keep my options open, I can go lower easier than I can go up.
to Shorthorn producers Stateside was also kept in mind as a part of the program at some point.
Currently the majority of the cows in western Canada in Embryo marketing programs are high %, as well many of the sires having Semen marketed from them are also asterisk free.
There have recently been a growing number of Shorthorn bulls being marketed into commercial cattle operations through sales and privately, my guess would be that 90 % of these would be astrisk free.
The main reason that I am trying to keep my herd asterisk free is to keep my options open, I can go lower easier than I can go up.
OH Breeder
Well-known member
happyrock said:
Thank you for the feedback! (welcome)
shortyisqueen
Well-known member
When I started with Shorthorns, I bought entirely non-asterisk cattle and was advised that anything with the 'star' was 'non-functional.' I remember a specific case where I pointed out an asterisk bull I liked in a magazine and was told a story about asterisks bulls whose legs were too straight to breed cows....among a myriad of other non-functional problems. I tried to stick to breeding "purebred" cattle, but soon came to realize that not only were most of the cattle I liked (without looking at the pedigree first) were "not purebred," most of the bulls I wanted to use weren't purebred either. In breeding for non-asterisk cattle first, I was limiting myself to line-breeding with the same bloodlines and expecting different results. I sat back and realized it would take me alot longer to breed the kind of cattle I wanted without taking advantage of the entire gene pool at my disposal. I would rather breed the kind of cattle I like when I see them walking around than the kind that looks good on paper. Asterick-free or not makes absolutely no difference to me - but at this time, those that seem to offer the most advancement to my genetic base are those WITH an asterisk.
As a side note, I have received some very "maine-like" characteristics from 'purebred' cattle. There are no guarantees on pedigrees, but I sometimes think that the admission that 'something else' made its way into those genetics is a bit more truthful recording than some of the papers that have purebred status. JIT's post explains some of this, and I really agree with him on the "purity" of the Shorthorn breed.
As a side note, I have received some very "maine-like" characteristics from 'purebred' cattle. There are no guarantees on pedigrees, but I sometimes think that the admission that 'something else' made its way into those genetics is a bit more truthful recording than some of the papers that have purebred status. JIT's post explains some of this, and I really agree with him on the "purity" of the Shorthorn breed.
Jill
Well-known member
OH Breeder said:
We actually do both, but focus more on the lower % that can be double registered and show as both Maine and Shorthorn.
aj
Well-known member
Angus cattle a few hundred years ago briefly incorporated Shorthorn blood in their bloodlines according to scholars. So if Angus are like 1,1 thousands shorthorn does that make the angus a mutt breed? There is a point where it doesn't matter anymore but where is that point?
Davis Shorthorns
Well-known member
aj said:
That alone doesn't make the angus breed a mutt, but when they bred to Holsteins and because they are black and polled it is impossible to tell if a neighbors bull jumped the fence one day and breed some cows that were at that time considered purebreeds. It still shows up in to days pedigrees.
Shady Lane
Well-known member
Like several others have allready mentioned, I personally put no weight on an asterisk in a pedigree whatsoever.
I feel that as breeders we should use whatever genetics are best suited to advance our breeding programs in the direction we desire. If some of those genetics come from outside the so called "pure shorthorns" so be it.
That said, I also believe that these genetics should be documented and made known. I also don't think that the asterisk should be removed at any blood level. If they are appendix cattle, in my mind they will always be appendix cattle so mark them as such in the herd book and leave it be. If I had a problem with asterisks on my pedigrees I wouldn't be using those genetics in the first place.
Often times I see pedigrees of the so called "Pure Cattle" that so many breeders in my area are adimant about and can identify "suspect genetics" that have stories that go along with their pedigrees that may or may not include gentetics from outside the breed.
Some of these lines of "Pure Shorthorns" include traits that are simply not found elsewhere in the breed.
Including but not limited to Black Hair, variations in skull shape and structure, bizzare and often "Maine Like" markings, etc.
One obvious example is the TH gene.
When essentially every Shorthorn in the breed that carries the TH deffect gene can be traced to one animal, where do you suppose that animal got that gene from?
So wouldn't that obviously imply that the Shorthorns that carry the TH gene, (Many of which are registered in the closed herd book) obviously carry genetics from outside the breed?
I feel that as breeders we should use whatever genetics are best suited to advance our breeding programs in the direction we desire. If some of those genetics come from outside the so called "pure shorthorns" so be it.
That said, I also believe that these genetics should be documented and made known. I also don't think that the asterisk should be removed at any blood level. If they are appendix cattle, in my mind they will always be appendix cattle so mark them as such in the herd book and leave it be. If I had a problem with asterisks on my pedigrees I wouldn't be using those genetics in the first place.
Often times I see pedigrees of the so called "Pure Cattle" that so many breeders in my area are adimant about and can identify "suspect genetics" that have stories that go along with their pedigrees that may or may not include gentetics from outside the breed.
Some of these lines of "Pure Shorthorns" include traits that are simply not found elsewhere in the breed.
Including but not limited to Black Hair, variations in skull shape and structure, bizzare and often "Maine Like" markings, etc.
One obvious example is the TH gene.
When essentially every Shorthorn in the breed that carries the TH deffect gene can be traced to one animal, where do you suppose that animal got that gene from?
So wouldn't that obviously imply that the Shorthorns that carry the TH gene, (Many of which are registered in the closed herd book) obviously carry genetics from outside the breed?
RyanChandler
Well-known member
justintime said:
Do you consider the Haumont cattle pure, as rn Reed does?
knabe
Well-known member
what's the difference between closed and pure.
