Shoshone Angus

http://shoshoneangus.homestead.com/home.html

I'm sure others knows more about this than I but what a great read. Thoughts from a master breeder who has been there.  As said before, why not benefit from someone elses 40 years of work. I think this relates to anyone breeding cattle no matter the breed. It will make you think.

What ya think of this lady?

And this guy.

These pics are on the site but if you don't read the whole thing you won't see them so I am putting them up here as well.
As well as my favorite piece.


How can a cow herd produce consistency when they are the consequence of continual change...a sorted by-product of different types. We seem to be so wrapped up measuring EPD, turning the generations so rapidly to get a higher set of numbers, that we cannot possibly know what profound effects these cattle being produced en masse may have down the road on the basic unmeasured maternal traits and environmental adaptability.

I'm done now. My wheels are turnin.

It sounds like it works for him. This is a quote I have worked by from one of Australia's premier Angus breeders Phil Collins from Merrigrange Angus Stud who started in 1959. I have posted it before.
Breeding Standards - Your female herd is the most valuable asset any stud can have. How well and consistent she breeds usually depends on her pedigree. It is better to have a small number of elite females than a large herd of average ones, but do not sacrifice the important traits of performance, fertility and structural correctness. "Remember The Power Of The Pedigree"

He was a great believer in cow family's and the to use of those consistant breeding pedigrees as a strong consistant breeding base but also to introduce a proven bull once in a while. A different way for looking at things

A good topic to raise discussion

I really like the Pivot bull and the 6157 cow. Like the fellow Aussie refers to I really believe in cow families.I also like to have some linebreeding.

I am becoming more and more convinced that linebreeding is a key ingredient to produce a consistent cow herd. Funny how people look differently about it. But if you think about it, when these animals are crossed with the terminal bull, the resulting feeder is hard to beat. I absolutely LOVE the 6157 cow. That is my idea of the ideal cow.  I think this is how we are suppose to capture TRUE heterosis. Two different lines of prepotent cattle that fit together in a cross. For me the thought of some shoshone cows and some linebred shorthorn bulls makin melt in your mouth beef makes me smile. ;D. Maybe not the rapid growth from say a char or simmy cross but the quality of product would be superior and thats where extra profit can be found for me. In my travels, my freezer beef customers want tenderness above all.  JMO

trevorgreycattleco said:

I am becoming more and more convinced that linebreeding is a key ingredient to produce a consistent cow herd. Funny how people look differently about it. But if you think about it, when these animals are crossed with the terminal bull, the resulting feeder is hard to beat. I absolutely LOVE the 6157 cow. That is my idea of the ideal cow.  I think this is how we are suppose to capture TRUE heterosis. Two different lines of prepotent cattle that fit together in a cross. For me the thought of some shoshone cows and some linebred shorthorn bulls makin melt in your mouth beef makes me smile. ;D. Maybe not the rapid growth from say a char or simmy cross but the quality of product would be superior and thats where extra profit can be found for me. In my travels, my freezer beef customers want tenderness above all.  JMO

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I agree to a degree, but you'll find that if the cattle don't have some growth bred into them you will get really sick of paying the feed bill.  That's my experience with the "maternal only" cattle.  I love the heifers, but the steers don't have the gas.  Trust me, I thought the exact same thing not 5 years ago.

REally enjoyed the  web site an his views , this is where we need to be headed an this has been my views on the kind of  cowherd we need to be more profitable, but they need to breed them to something that has more growth an use the crossbreeding to produce the free pounds you get from it ...an better carcass..
With more inbred cow you will have more consistency, now a days you take a black cow supposedly Angus an want to cross breed to another breed , the Angus we have now a days you wonder if they had already been crossbred ..    OUR cattle business always has to have fads an I think now after all the
_  _ _ _ _     problems we will try to straighten things out an will go back more consistant blood lines ...

full disclosure, he's the guy who does the keeny'scorner forum.  it's also why there is deafening silence.

sure wish he would make some f1's with jim lents

BadgerFan said:

trevorgreycattleco said:

I am becoming more and more convinced that linebreeding is a key ingredient to produce a consistent cow herd. Funny how people look differently about it. But if you think about it, when these animals are crossed with the terminal bull, the resulting feeder is hard to beat. I absolutely LOVE the 6157 cow. That is my idea of the ideal cow.  I think this is how we are suppose to capture TRUE heterosis. Two different lines of prepotent cattle that fit together in a cross. For me the thought of some shoshone cows and some linebred shorthorn bulls makin melt in your mouth beef makes me smile. ;D. Maybe not the rapid growth from say a char or simmy cross but the quality of product would be superior and thats where extra profit can be found for me. In my travels, my freezer beef customers want tenderness above all.  JMO

Click to expand...

I agree to a degree, but you'll find that if the cattle don't have some growth bred into them you will get really sick of paying the feed bill.  That's my experience with the "maternal only" cattle.  I love the heifers, but the steers don't have the gas.  Trust me, I thought the exact same thing not 5 years ago.

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Yeah, but grass is pretty much free!  Just stop feeding grain and using grain based genetics and switch to more grass based easy doing ones.  The Aussie's do pretty much everything on grass, same thing in Argentina, why can't we?  If you are selling direct freezer orders to your customers, consistency (read linebreeding) is very important.  I can't deal with the occasional freak steer that grows real fast and finishes out very heavy with huge steaks.

knabe said:

full disclosure, he's the guy who does the keeny'scorner forum.  it's also why there is deafening silence.

sure wish he would make some f1's with jim lents

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Anyone know if Jim Lents book is available anywhere?

I enjoyed the article. Certainly gives me something else to consider as I plan for next year's breeding season.

knabe said:

full disclosure, he's the guy who does the keeny'scorner forum.  it's also why there is deafening silence.

sure wish he would make some f1's with jim lents

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What do you mean by deafening silence knabe?
Yes, Mike Keeney is the man behind this, I barely know of him really but his views are worth their weight in gold to me. You don't have to always agree but it sure makes alot of sense.

BadgerFan said:

trevorgreycattleco said:

I am becoming more and more convinced that linebreeding is a key ingredient to produce a consistent cow herd. Funny how people look differently about it. But if you think about it, when these animals are crossed with the terminal bull, the resulting feeder is hard to beat. I absolutely LOVE the 6157 cow. That is my idea of the ideal cow.  I think this is how we are suppose to capture TRUE heterosis. Two different lines of prepotent cattle that fit together in a cross. For me the thought of some shoshone cows and some linebred shorthorn bulls makin melt in your mouth beef makes me smile. ;D. Maybe not the rapid growth from say a char or simmy cross but the quality of product would be superior and thats where extra profit can be found for me. In my travels, my freezer beef customers want tenderness above all.  JMO

Click to expand...

I agree to a degree, but you'll find that if the cattle don't have some growth bred into them you will get really sick of paying the feed bill.  That's my experience with the "maternal only" cattle.  I love the heifers, but the steers don't have the gas.  Trust me, I thought the exact same thing not 5 years ago.

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Agreed, maintaining enough performance is important and tricky but really a cow weighing 1200-1500 lbs weaning a 550 avg calf is very acceptable for me. I am trying to eliminate grain from my program completely. Last winter all males recieved 4 lbs per day and no full feed hay. I got them to 1150 1250 at 13 and 14 months and the last 3-4 months was finished on straight grass. Shorthorn angus cross. Thats enough grow for me.
I was in Philadelphia for a wedding recently and met a all natural and organic food distributor from New York city. He has a huge business and we talked for a long time. The grass fed deal is exploding for him. He is struggling to meet the demand and the quality he desires. He believes the grass finished biz is one of the greatest opputunities for profit today. Bottom line for him, people are demanding healthier leaner protein and will pay a premium to get it.

Grass is free?  Not even close.  Whether you buy land, lease it, or have owned it for generations, grass has a big cost per cow if you are caring for your land and running cattle on it in a sustainable way.

chambero said:

Grass is free?  Not even close.  Whether you buy land, lease it, or have owned it for generations, grass has a big cost per cow if you are caring for your land and running cattle on it in a sustainable way.

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Not only is grass not free but different operations will utilize different feed. Some will have grassland that is only suited to grazing and not cropping and will rely on whatever winter feed they can get that is the least expensive-silage, corn stalks, swath grazing and the list is endless. In some places the herds can graze year round on grass and in others there might be 7 or 8 months of winter feeding. Some areas do not lend themselves to finishing on grass that is why they have feedlots. Hard to graze when everything is froze up and covered in snow some years.

chambero said:

Grass is free?  Not even close.  Whether you buy land, lease it, or have owned it for generations, grass has a big cost per cow if you are caring for your land and running cattle on it in a sustainable way.

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Grass is not free with the cost of fert etc. But if you can match calving and management to climate it becomes cost efficient. For example  if you calve in the spring run those calves on matainance through the winter and finish them in the following spring early summer when grass is plentiful they can finish with no supplementary feeding therefore cutting costs. That also means dry cows running through the winter take very little feed when there is little about. Cows on a natural rising plane of nutrition in the spring will be easier to get in calf. It works here but we have big kick in the spring and grain just can not compete.

Most places in Wyoming have green grass for about 2 months of the year or less unless grazing on irrigated ground.  Unless you count hay (alfie and grass and other types) in the equation as grass, it is pretty hard to have a grass fat here.  People are doing it, but they are called forage-based cattle because they get little or no grain products. I rough the steers through the winter and get the growth out of them the following spring and summer, but it still takes until February before they are ready to go to the packer at 20 months of age.  The leased grass is the cheapest I use and I am not sure it pays due to the length of time on leased pasture, interest incurred to carry them versus just feeding them out as weaners and sending them to the packer at 13 -14 months.

Would like to thank Chambero for his comment, in this country they use to try to figure a cash flow on buying this ground to pay for it ,not many ranchers waste their time now, if your a doctor or lawyer it might make more sense....


Not to long ago I read a article in the livestock paper that a doctor or scientist was disputing the fact that grass fed beef was any healthier for you than the corn fed beef ,the big difference was that the grass fed beef didn't bring any of the healthy fat to the table like the grain fed  beef .  I think the article was published in the CATTLE WEEEKLY from South Dakota ....