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Author Topic: Show Cattle Ethics  (Read 18251 times)

Offline knabe

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Re: Show Cattle Ethics
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2016, 10:50:03 PM »
People who buy club calves.......are here today......and they are gone in 3-5 years. The rape will continue as long as this pattern continues. It is a economic model that has occurred since 1975 came in.


sorta like people who take th carriers to denver or brag about being a champion in a class of 2.


takes a real man to just keep bashing the show industry.
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Offline OLD WORLD SHORTIE

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Re: Show Cattle Ethics
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2016, 08:46:36 AM »
Some people just sell bad cattle sometimes and make it up to you on the next one lol. Either way they get your money twice.
 Club calves are a risk and sometimes it just doesn't go well.  If the animal is that important that's why they have insurance.
I personally like the ASA guarantee or however that works, but that's on breeding females.
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Offline Tallcool1

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Re: Show Cattle Ethics
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2016, 12:09:07 PM »
..........and this is exactly why I hardly ever log onto this site anymore.

aj, if you hate the show cattle industry or more directly, the show STEER industry, then why are you even on this site. 

I don't like Shorthorn cattle.  I never have, and likely never will.  I don't log onto the Shorthorn Association website, and don't participate in Shorthorn forums.  I also don't slip underhanded shitty comments into anyone that has a love for Shorthorn cattle.  I value my time and focus that time toward things that I like.

In addition, I don't like Quarter Horses.  My family raises Quarter Horses, and sells some of them for a whole lot of money.  I wouldn't give you a nickel for any of them, even though one of them happened to be the High Selling stud in 2011.  I don't frequent the AQHA website or forums.  I also don't slip underhanded shitty comments into anyone that has a love for Quarter Horses.  I value my time and focus that time toward things that I like.

If you hate show steers so much, WHY IN THE HELL do you waste your time on this forum?  What value to you get out of it?  Or do you just not value your time?  Maybe you are trying to change the world? 

All of the bickering and idiotic exchanges just get old.


Offline SlickTxMaine

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Re: Show Cattle Ethics
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2016, 12:54:56 PM »
 
..........and this is exactly why I hardly ever log onto this site anymore.

aj, if you hate the show cattle industry or more directly, the show STEER industry, then why are you even on this site. 

I don't like Shorthorn cattle.  I never have, and likely never will.  I don't log onto the Shorthorn Association website, and don't participate in Shorthorn forums.  I also don't slip underhanded shitty comments into anyone that has a love for Shorthorn cattle.  I value my time and focus that time toward things that I like.

In addition, I don't like Quarter Horses.  My family raises Quarter Horses, and sells some of them for a whole lot of money.  I wouldn't give you a nickel for any of them, even though one of them happened to be the High Selling stud in 2011.  I don't frequent the AQHA website or forums.  I also don't slip underhanded shitty comments into anyone that has a love for Quarter Horses.  I value my time and focus that time toward things that I like.

If you hate show steers so much, WHY IN THE HELL do you waste your time on this forum?  What value to you get out of it?  Or do you just not value your time?  Maybe you are trying to change the world? 

All of the bickering and idiotic exchanges just get old.

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Offline The Show

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Re: Show Cattle Ethics
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2016, 08:44:05 AM »
Back to the original topic, I want to share a similar experience that occurred with a breeder and close friend of mine. They raise purebred cattle that are as sound as they come, i.e. nothing clubby.

Last year, they sold a bull calf off one of their best cows; just after weaning at around six months. This was this particular cow's first bull calf, previously she had four heifer calves out of the same mating and they all turned out to be great show heifers. At about eight months old, and almost overnight, the bull calf became crippled. I forget the scientific name, but the vet diagnosed it with a genetic disorder (I would assume it's the same one that OP is referring to). The reason that it had never appeared in the heifers is that this disorder is much more prevalent in males.

Unfortunately, by the time this was discovered, the cow was already bred back to the same bull. As luck would have it, she had another bull calf back in the fall. The calf was great, and completely sound and defect-free when it was born. They decided they would keep him and feed him out to see if the disorder surfaced again. Again, shortly after weaning, the calf became crippled to the point that he had to be put down.

I saw a few people mention that the breeder should do nothing and that the problem is the buyer's fault for not knowing how to select cattle, but I disagree if we are talking about the same disorder. It's no secret that club calves are much more prone to structural issues than most purebreds, but this disorder appears nearly overnight. After seeing it firsthand, I can tell you that it is completely undetectable until it happens. This is NOT to be confused with a poorly structured calf that begins to buckle and blow apart as it gets big and is being pushed hard on feed.

The breeder I am referring to felt bad that the sound calf they sold became crippled. Obviously if they had discovered the disorder, they would have never sold or attempted to sell the calf. The buyer also understood what a bizarre situation it was, so that weren't demanding a new calf for free. In the end, the breeder offered them a new bull at a VERY fair price. IIRC, they sold the first bull for $5,000 and then they took him back and sold the buyer another young bull of equal quality for $1,000.

I think they did the right thing. I don't think the breeder necessarily has an obligation to replace the calf for free, but doing something to make it right really says a lot about what kind of breeder they are.

Offline husker1

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Re: Show Cattle Ethics
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2016, 10:03:42 AM »
Haven't been on here lately, but thought I'd chime in. 

Legally, the seller probably needs to do nothing.  However, we need to get past that.  If the seller is in the business for the long haul, and enjoys the business...he is doing it for more than the money.  Go out of your way to make sure the buyer is totally satisfied with his purchase.   

We've all worked with people who are only interested in the profit that they can make...and that can be quite discouraging.  When one understands that there is much more to the cattle business (and life) than the money you make, you will start enjoying it much more!

Offline Olson Family Shorthorns

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Re: Show Cattle Ethics
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2016, 02:26:39 PM »
While what you say is absolutely true, it's always funny to me to see grown people who say they are 100% pro free market capitalism start talking about the ethics of it all and then decide that maybe being a greedy SOB isn't the way to go.
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Offline husker1

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Re: Show Cattle Ethics
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2016, 03:37:39 PM »
To make my point a touch more clear...

I have no problem with people making a profit...but I want my customers to be satisfied and I want them make a profit also! 
 

Offline aj

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Re: Show Cattle Ethics
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2016, 07:49:15 AM »
The purpose of fitting is to create a deception.......who can argue that fact?
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Offline Show stopper 95

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Re: Show Cattle Ethics
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2016, 03:12:47 PM »
What about the deception of hauling th carriers to denver and then bashing carriers?
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Offline Tallcool1

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Re: Show Cattle Ethics
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2016, 05:53:14 PM »
The purpose of fitting is to create a deception.......who can argue that fact?

Nobody can argue that fact.

The purpose of FEEDING is also to create a deception.....who can argue that fact? 

The feeding regimen on these breeding cattle is no different than market cattle today.  We now see a heifer win the AOB Breeding heifer division on Saturday, and see the same heifer win the Market Heifer division on Sunday. 

My point is very simple.  If you despise the show cattle or more directly Show Steer industry, why are you on this site? 

Now, the point of fitting goes way beyond "deception".  I learned a great deal about cattle selection by learning how to fit.  Fitting teaches us what we would want one to look like in a perfect world.  It teaches us what we wish that calf had for pastern structure, what ideal hip structure looks like, what depth of rib we would want.  Fitting is what drives genetic evolution.


Offline aj

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Re: Show Cattle Ethics
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2016, 07:42:43 AM »
Dear tallcool........I enjoy discussing history, evolution, cattle and natural selection. I consider this board to be a discussion board and not a propaganda board but it is both(human nature). I guess I'm the bad cop of the deal. I do sometimes fear that kids in the youth programs don't even realize that the beef industry is supposed to be about producing a high protein-high quality out of essentially waste(poor quality) roughage and or acres. Some kids think that all cattle live in cool boxes and hot boxesboxes and are all fed rations that cost 400 dollars a pound. I have history on this board as I was one of the first on here. I think Jason said once that I am oldest most original posters left on here but KNABE and others are close. I feel that bos taurus genetics should try and be lethal genetic defect free. My herd is essentially DS, PHA, and TH free. I have tested all the Red Angus cattle coming into my herd also. Why do I post on this board.......sometimes the best way to create discussion and get a spirited debate is to piss people off. I enjoy the discussions. Over the last 10 years or whatever it has been I have had one death threat..........many attempts by hand fulls of people to ban me....etc etc etc. I am a introvert and am soft spoken in a crowd......guess that is why I find it easier to discuss things on the board. I also have have a facebook page that I try and stir things up on.....like Brock Eagen. Feel free to view and comment on. I think freedom of speech is very special in this country.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline aj

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Re: Show Cattle Ethics
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2016, 07:45:04 AM »
One funny note......Red asked me to be a moderator of this board when it first started up. Bahahahahahaah I declined.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline Tallcool1

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Re: Show Cattle Ethics
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2016, 03:25:26 PM »
Dear tallcool........I enjoy discussing history, evolution, cattle and natural selection. I consider this board to be a discussion board and not a propaganda board but it is both(human nature). I guess I'm the bad cop of the deal. I do sometimes fear that kids in the youth programs don't even realize that the beef industry is supposed to be about producing a high protein-high quality out of essentially waste(poor quality) roughage and or acres. Some kids think that all cattle live in cool boxes and hot boxesboxes and are all fed rations that cost 400 dollars a pound. I have history on this board as I was one of the first on here. I think Jason said once that I am oldest most original posters left on here but KNABE and others are close. I feel that bos taurus genetics should try and be lethal genetic defect free. My herd is essentially DS, PHA, and TH free. I have tested all the Red Angus cattle coming into my herd also. Why do I post on this board.......sometimes the best way to create discussion and get a spirited debate is to piss people off. I enjoy the discussions. Over the last 10 years or whatever it has been I have had one death threat..........many attempts by hand fulls of people to ban me....etc etc etc. I am a introvert and am soft spoken in a crowd......guess that is why I find it easier to discuss things on the board. I also have have a facebook page that I try and stir things up on.....like Brock Eagen. Feel free to view and comment on. I think freedom of speech is very special in this country.

I agree that freedom of speech is very special in this country.  I have never even so much as suggested that you not be ALLOWED to participate in these conversations.  I am just curious why you would want to.

I disagree with your idea of what the beef industry is supposed to be about.  I don't believe that it is about high protein-high quality out of waste roughage or acres.  We feed a ration that is for all intents and purposes the EXACT same ration from the feedlot.  These feedlot cattle are not being fed waste roughage.  They are being fed high energy, extremely well balanced rations that convert to product.

Like the show ring or not, there is absolutely a trickle down to the commercial (feed lot) side of the industry.  When I showed steers, a 10:1 conversion of corn to pounds was considered normal.  Today, these steers convert much more efficiently than that.  I believe that a great deal of that improvement has been the result of the show ring.  Choice Plus or Prime was nearly unheard of in the show ring when I was showing.  We have now in our 5th year of showing steers, and have yet to have one grade lower than Choice.  In addition, we have had one a whisker away from Prime, and had another one Reserve carcass at our State Fair.  These are the same steers that we win classes and divisions with all year long aj. 

When genetic progress is the goal, there will certainly be bumps in the road.  I believe that these bumps are just part of the process.  Genetically "dirty" cattle are risky in terms of mating, but there is certainly no question that they perform.  Perhaps 10 years from now, the risk factor will be gone and we will be left with the performance side and freedom to mate these cattle however we choose.  Who knows.

With all of that said, this forum is full of kids that eat, sleep, and breathe show cattle.  These kids have given up a lot of freedom and other activities to pursue their dream of holding the halter of that one that gets the slap from a judge.  What these kids learn in the process of the pursuit of their dream is invaluable.  I have a very difficult time figuring out how kicking these kids in the guts every chance you get could possibly be considered productive. 


Offline aj

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Re: Show Cattle Ethics
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2016, 04:30:06 PM »
When the beef industry has become anything other than taking sunshine......raw roughage......grass and cornstalks and making meat out of it......you are in the category of raising zoo animals. You are raising rabbits, alpaca's and race horses. It puts you in the category of being a hobby farmer.....and really that is what the show cattle industry has become.......a hobby.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

 

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