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Author Topic: Simmental coat patterns  (Read 5165 times)

Offline HerefordGuy

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Simmental coat patterns
« on: January 09, 2013, 11:18:49 PM »
It appears to me that Simmental breeders have selected against piebald or spotted cattle in favor of black cattle with solid colored bodies (with perhaps some white on head and belly).
I assume this is to increase the chances of 51% black and qualify for Certified Angus Beef.
Is there a better explanation? Anyone have a reference or citation for this practice?
Thanks,
Jared

Offline LN

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2013, 11:31:19 PM »
Angus Angus Angus.
Why, land is the only thing in the world worth workin'for, worth fightin' for, worth dyin' for, because it's the only thing that lasts.     -Gone With the Wind

Offline HerefordGuy

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2013, 11:50:33 PM »
Angus Angus Angus.
So, my assumption that they are trying to qualify for CAB is correct?

Offline DLD

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2013, 06:47:39 AM »
Not sure that you could say CAB is why - the continental breeds started turning black before the CAB program even came along. CAB or no, commercial stocker operators and feeders like black.  The generally held perception is that black cattle marble better (thus are more tender and taste better) - and you can thank the Angus association and it's CAB program for that.  But there's a little more to it than just that.  There's also the perception that the colored up pb Simmentals (and Maines and other continental breeds) generally are bigger framed, later maturing cattle that tend to be less effecient on grass or feed than the British breeds, thus commercial producers whether they're cow/calf or stockers or feeders, want them to have that British influence.  The easiest and most obvious way there was turning them black.  Plus, everybody likes uniformity, especially order buyers - again the easiest way there is by turning them all black.  Are all of those 100% always valid arguments?  No, that's why I said perceptions, but they're right enough to sell black hided cattle.

The showring has always liked black, too.  I know that right now alot of people like some painted up cattle in the junior shows ( mostly in steers and clubby type heifers),  but that's really just for fun.  It has next to nothing to do with the direction the rest of the industry (even the showring) goes.
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Offline Gargan

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2013, 07:50:10 AM »
Not sure that you could say CAB is why - the continental breeds started turning black before the CAB program even came along. CAB or no, commercial stocker operators and feeders like black.  The generally held perception is that black cattle marble better (thus are more tender and taste better) - and you can thank the Angus association and it's CAB program for that.  But there's a little more to it than just that.  There's also the perception that the colored up pb Simmentals (and Maines and other continental breeds) generally are bigger framed, later maturing cattle that tend to be less effecient on grass or feed than the British breeds, thus commercial producers whether they're cow/calf or stockers or feeders, want them to have that British influence.  The easiest and most obvious way there was turning them black.  Plus, everybody likes uniformity, especially order buyers - again the easiest way there is by turning them all black.  Are all of those 100% always valid arguments?  No, that's why I said perceptions, but they're right enough to sell black hided cattle.

The showring has always liked black, too.  I know that right now alot of people like some painted up cattle in the junior shows ( mostly in steers and clubby type heifers),  but that's really just for fun.  It has next to nothing to do with the direction the rest of the industry (even the showring) goes.

right on. when you send the spotted calves to the sale barn or send them to producers you are looking at a 10-15 cent /lb deductions also. on the big scale thats why they've went black hided.
Welfare's purpose should be to eliminate, as far as possible, the need for its own existence.  -Ronald reagan

Offline GONEWEST

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2013, 02:50:42 PM »
I have raised Registered Simmental cattle since 1979. I bought the first 3 with money from my student loan.

 The CAB program began in 1978. However it was almost discontinued several times because it didn't get the results they had hoped for. A man named Mick Colvin wouldn't let the idea go. And he and some guy I can't remember his name, but there was a board member who owned a famous steak house in New York city and those two convinced the association to stay with it. 1988 the Angus breed had one foot on a banana peel and one in the grave. Had mixed Holstein and Chi blood in, were running the famous "Elephant Ads" that talked about all the big continental breeds, while the Angus bulls at Louisville that year were big enough to step over any other breed. But the guy with the restaurant in New York and the CAB people at the Angus Association knew that they had two things no one else had. Name recognition among no agricultural consumers and black color. In the early 90's it began to catch on.

There were a FEW black Simmental cattle in the early 90's, or I should say gray cattle. People were breeding grays to grays trying to get a black and it seldom worked. Those turned out black were not always of the best quality. I was at Denver in 1991 when Steve Reimer named the first black Simmental bull ever to win Denver. I don't remember his name only that he was terrible. He was the only one there if I am not mistaken. A red and white spotted bull named "Firefox" was supposed to win but Reimer was bound and determined to make a black bull champion. He made excuse after excuse for the bull. Not long after that blacks began to be more common. In 1993 we had a black bull named Double Take that was calf champion at Denver and soon after there was a move to go to black cattle. In 1999 the Simmental association had huge program called Focus 2000. That was a time that many large breeders came together and decided to push for solid colored, smaller cattle as the breed was losing market share due to the CAB program. It was also the beginning of the "dumbing down" of the breed to Angus standards of growth and milk. The rest is history. the CAB program is the ONLY reason Simmental cattle are black. It is the only reason that many other continental breed cattle are black. They still have spotted cattle of all breeds in Canada and other parts of the world because there is no CAB program. Shorthorn cattle in Canada are viable commercial cattle because they don't get docked for color coat.There the feedlots love shorthorns as much as angus as well they should. CAB changed the American beef industry forever. Hats off to them, shame on everyone else.

Offline Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2013, 07:24:41 PM »
 :)
Interest matter. Always show curiosity for why a breed change your color coat in US, like Simmental, Limousin, Charolais....
But not understood well the explanation  ???
Until I know about genetics, the an unique change of color coat will not insert on animals marble and other characters of Angus breed. For this is necessary a cross with at least 75% Angus. So the Simmental are not more Simmnetals, they are Angus crosses! Of course market is the final objective.
Also many Angus are big framed low mature beasts in US, maybe due continental infusion on there. It's a two way road at final.
Not yet understand well why continentals lost your uniqueness breed character for a few dollaes more (maybe Clint can explain!)
Regards.

 <alien>

Offline redsimmsnangus

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2013, 09:42:42 PM »
I find it all sad and amusing.  Now the blaze faced simms are more popular.  Why?  They establish breed identity!  Simmentals had breed identity before they sold their souls to CAB, but instead of improving their breed through selective breeding they created black cattle by mixing in Angus, which have market acceptance but are not even recognized as Simmental in some parts of the world.  How much genetic diversity and good animals were sacrificed in the name of coat color? Yes, the Simmentals lost a grand market share by going frame 10+ and having no muscle and guts. But they could have fought it, bred for a better kind, proved themselves, and not changed the color. It was just easier not to.  That said there are many wonderful black Simmentals out there that I admire, I just wonder what all the breeds would look like if a different breed had marketed themselves like CAB instead of Angus.

Offline DiamondMCattle

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2013, 10:13:52 PM »
Does any one know of any place still raising red/yellow and white simmentals?
Diamond M Show Cattle

Offline blackdiamond

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2013, 10:26:05 PM »
Does any one know of any place still raising red/yellow and white simmentals?

I knew of a place or two a couple years ago, but don't think either is in anymore...

I have R/W semen in my tank though, willing to give it away...

Offline firesweepranch

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2013, 09:19:29 AM »
Does any one know of any place still raising red/yellow and white simmentals?


There are many! Steaks Alive out of Joplin, MO is one that comes to mind. They almost always have the back page of the Simm Talk magazine (which is free, by the way, for anyone interested in it!). Here is a link to the magazine, inside is the little paper you fill out for your free subscription and the add for Steaks Alive.  http://simmgene.ipaperus.com/OnlinePublications/Catalogs/LateFallSimTalk2012/
There is a bunch out of Texas also, Buzzard Hollow I think is one, 666 is another. Just look for adds for Full bloods. I know there are some big sales, like the Quest (IIRC) that bring better money for fullbloods than purebreds.
I have a friend that has often told me he would love to find a good yellow/white traditional simmy to take to Junior Nationals and win with! Just to prove a point. I know a lot of breeders that will breed back a purebred to a fullblood to get a better animal. There is an interesting article in the Register on page 32 about the US Simmental evolution, and tracking trends with API numbers. Amazing Papillon had an API of -19!!!! He was a popular bull in his day. Most breeders strive for an API of over 100 now.  
But, I like the look of the old Simmis, and even had a steer in high school that won champion market steer at our fair that was red and white and simmental! He was a beast!!!
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 09:23:59 AM by firesweepranch »
God, family, and Simmental cattle;  that's what makes life worth living!

Offline GONEWEST

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2013, 02:52:02 PM »
:)
Interest matter. Always show curiosity for why a breed change your color coat in US, like Simmental, Limousin, Charolais....
But not understood well the explanation  ???
Until I know about genetics, the an unique change of color coat will not insert on animals marble and other characters of Angus breed. For this is necessary a cross with at least 75% Angus. So the Simmental are not more Simmnetals, they are Angus crosses! Of course market is the final objective.
Also many Angus are big framed low mature beasts in US, maybe due continental infusion on there. It's a two way road at final.
Not yet understand well why continentals lost your uniqueness breed character for a few dollaes more (maybe Clint can explain!)
Regards.

 <alien>


If you lived in the US you would understand that marketing does not necessarily have anything to do with facts  :)

Offline Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2013, 04:21:20 PM »
:)
Interest matter. Always show curiosity for why a breed change your color coat in US, like Simmental, Limousin, Charolais....
But not understood well the explanation  ???
Until I know about genetics, the an unique change of color coat will not insert on animals marble and other characters of Angus breed. For this is necessary a cross with at least 75% Angus. So the Simmental are not more Simmnetals, they are Angus crosses! Of course market is the final objective.
Also many Angus are big framed low mature beasts in US, maybe due continental infusion on there. It's a two way road at final.
Not yet understand well why continentals lost your uniqueness breed character for a few dollaes more (maybe Clint can explain!)
Regards.

 <alien>


If you lived in the US you would understand that marketing does not necessarily have anything to do with facts  :)

Due to this I enter daily on this site to read the topics! Trying understand the cattle world, not only my regional operation.  ;D

Offline GONEWEST

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2013, 04:35:06 PM »
Does any one know of any place still raising red/yellow and white simmentals?


There are many! Steaks Alive out of Joplin, MO is one that comes to mind. They almost always have the back page of the Simm Talk magazine (which is free, by the way, for anyone interested in it!). Here is a link to the magazine, inside is the little paper you fill out for your free subscription and the add for Steaks Alive.  http://simmgene.ipaperus.com/OnlinePublications/Catalogs/LateFallSimTalk2012/
There is a bunch out of Texas also, Buzzard Hollow I think is one, 666 is another. Just look for adds for Full bloods. I know there are some big sales, like the Quest (IIRC) that bring better money for fullbloods than purebreds.
I have a friend that has often told me he would love to find a good yellow/white traditional simmy to take to Junior Nationals and win with! Just to prove a point. I know a lot of breeders that will breed back a purebred to a fullblood to get a better animal. There is an interesting article in the Register on page 32 about the US Simmental evolution, and tracking trends with API numbers. Amazing Papillon had an API of -19!!!! He was a popular bull in his day. Most breeders strive for an API of over 100 now.  
But, I like the look of the old Simmis, and even had a steer in high school that won champion market steer at our fair that was red and white and simmental! He was a beast!!!


All of those are Fleckvieh strain of Simmentals and red and white, some have dilution but most of that has been selected against. And one of those or a cross with one of those will never win at a junior national. However, there is a division at Louisville for them and the Sweepstakes might have had a Fleckvieh division. But the Pie Rouge strain of yellow and white from Switzerland is about gone if not all gone from the US cow herd.


Offline husker1

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2013, 09:36:14 AM »
I've noticed, in the last 3 to 4 years, many customers are interested in more and more white chrome in breeding cattle....both bulls and females.  Our chromed up ones the last few sales have sold extremely well.

Had a 3C Macho ET calf 3 years ago that we had in the cradle, ready to be castrated, due to color....just couldn't do it, as he was too good of calf in type....but he had white up to his belly on all 4 legs....Hesistantly put him in the catalog and got call after call on him.  Ending up selling for $2500 ABOVE the sale average!  My lesson was learned; even though white is not desirable to me, some customers like it...and the customer is always right.  Take that a step farther, and we had a chromed up bull last year bring over $15,000.

We've got one this year with a white strip on his shoulder, in addition to legs.  Two black goggle-eyes.  Really good calf.  Might even give him a try, even though it's against everything we've ever thought was right, color wise!

Everyone likes something different.



 

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