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Offline ALTSIMMY 79

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2013, 03:05:18 PM »
Im still a fan of the traditional color pattern,  no doubt about it. Dont have any around anymore but growing up thats all we had here. A person really needs to keep in mind that those colored up bulls sure can achive very desirable results when bred to those straight angus cows ! And lord knows there are millions of them out there! 

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2013, 08:22:25 PM »
Not sure that you could say CAB is why - the continental breeds started turning black before the CAB program even came along. CAB or no, commercial stocker operators and feeders like black.  The generally held perception is that black cattle marble better (thus are more tender and taste better) - and you can thank the Angus association and it's CAB program for that.  But there's a little more to it than just that.  There's also the perception that the colored up pb Simmentals (and Maines and other continental breeds) generally are bigger framed, later maturing cattle that tend to be less effecient on grass or feed than the British breeds, thus commercial producers whether they're cow/calf or stockers or feeders, want them to have that British influence.  The easiest and most obvious way there was turning them black.  Plus, everybody likes uniformity, especially order buyers - again the easiest way there is by turning them all black.  Are all of those 100% always valid arguments?  No, that's why I said perceptions, but they're right enough to sell black hided cattle.

The showring has always liked black, too.  I know that right now alot of people like some painted up cattle in the junior shows ( mostly in steers and clubby type heifers),  but that's really just for fun.  It has next to nothing to do with the direction the rest of the industry (even the showring) goes.

Showing cattle in the 70's and 80's in the Midwest, with steers, if you wanted to win, they HAD to be black.  Period.  I know of a Chi cross steer that was the typical, white, brindle with black hide that qualified for the State Fair.  When it arrived at the Fair, it was black as night.  Won Grand Champion.  This was during the time dye, paint, graphite, etc. was common and not illegal.  IMO, all Continental breeds bred for black to compete.  There was no CAB program.  Our yellow or red and white Simmental feeder calves would bring top price at the sale barn.  Our heifers would show well, but it was rare to win a steer show with anything other than a black steer.
Owner of Whispering Pines and founder of the Riley Round Up for MS Benefit Steer & Heifer Show.

Offline leanbeef

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2013, 04:17:44 PM »
Somebody hit the nail on the head when he/she mentioned identity. In 1994, when the cattle market crashed, our identity had been tainted with a lot of characteristics that were negatively associated with commercial beef production...big frame size, hard doing, late maturing, big birth weights & calving problems. All those things were associated with traditionally colored Simmental cattle. The only way to avoid the discounts was to change all the things that were identifiable and associated with those problem cattle.

I was at a Focus 2000 seminar in the late 1990s, and we heard a LOT of people explain why Simmental cattle did NOT work in their operations, whether they were cow/calf guys, order buyers, or feedlot managers. It was tough to hear, but it all needed to be said. I don't think anybody at the time was concerned with getting CAB premiums...we just wanted to stop getting discounts! After we stopped the bleeding, we changed the breed. Breeders didn't just make the cattle black, but I think we have addressed all the measures the cattle were being criticized for. Birth weights went down, calving ease improved, cow size & feeder steer size got smaller, efficiency & profitability improved at every level in the chain. And now that we have a viable product again, why wouldn't we want to brand it and separate ourselves from all the generic black cattle out there?

I picked my first heifer based on the fact that she was red & white spotted. I was 8 years old. I still happen to like colored cattle if they're good...I don't think it matters what color they are if they're good. And I don't care what color they are if they're bad! They're still ugly.

I bought our first black cattle in 1990, and I've always liked the blaze face better than the solid blacks. The reason we try to make solid black ones is because most of our bull customers send their calves to the local stock barn at weaning time, and if we can't make their calves as uniform as possible, then they aren't getting all their calves are worth.

I just bought a black & white bull to go on Angus cows, and he wasn't easy to find! I think as more people want to make baldies out of black cows, and if they understand genetics & want to make baldies consistently, there will be a strong market for black & white bulls. You can't use a blaze faced bull on Angus cows & have a lot of luck making a high percentage of blaze faced calves.

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2013, 07:30:55 PM »
leanbeef, I can't disagree with you about size and scale.  When we were showing steers by hip height, they'd gotten too big.  And a 1700 lb. cow was not going to wean a bigger cal than a 1300 lb. Cow and she cost a lot more to maintain.  But, Simmental, as well as the other Continental breeds were going black way before the nineties.  Again, IMO, the showring dictated in some part that those breeds go black to compete.  Influential  Simmental bulls like Steelman (1978), Coal Train (1981), Black Max (1985) an even Burns Bull X339U (1988) were big and black and way before the time you're talking...
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Offline GONEWEST

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2013, 02:08:09 PM »
Somebody hit the nail on the head when he/she mentioned identity. In 1994, when the cattle market crashed, our identity had been tainted with a lot of characteristics that were negatively associated with commercial beef production...big frame size, hard doing, late maturing, big birth weights & calving problems. All those things were associated with traditionally colored Simmental cattle. The only way to avoid the discounts was to change all the things that were identifiable and associated with those problem cattle.

I was at a Focus 2000 seminar in the late 1990s, and we heard a LOT of people explain why Simmental cattle did NOT work in their operations, whether they were cow/calf guys, order buyers, or feedlot managers. It was tough to hear, but it all needed to be said. I don't think anybody at the time was concerned with getting CAB premiums...we just wanted to stop getting discounts! After we stopped the bleeding, we changed the breed. Breeders didn't just make the cattle black, but I think we have addressed all the measures the cattle were being criticized for. Birth weights went down, calving ease improved, cow size & feeder steer size got smaller, efficiency & profitability improved at every level in the chain. And now that we have a viable product again, why wouldn't we want to brand it and separate ourselves from all the generic black cattle out there?

I picked my first heifer based on the fact that she was red & white spotted. I was 8 years old. I still happen to like colored cattle if they're good...I don't think it matters what color they are if they're good. And I don't care what color they are if they're bad! They're still ugly.

I bought our first black cattle in 1990, and I've always liked the blaze face better than the solid blacks. The reason we try to make solid black ones is because most of our bull customers send their calves to the local stock barn at weaning time, and if we can't make their calves as uniform as possible, then they aren't getting all their calves are worth.

I just bought a black & white bull to go on Angus cows, and he wasn't easy to find! I think as more people want to make baldies out of black cows, and if they understand genetics & want to make baldies consistently, there will be a strong market for black & white bulls. You can't use a blaze faced bull on Angus cows & have a lot of luck making a high percentage of blaze faced calves.

I would have to differ with you concerning the CAB premiums not being at issue in the FOCUS 2000 meetings. There is actually no premium to the producer, only the discounts you mentioned that we wanted to get away from. The premiums are in the wholesale of meat. The producer sees no premium, only discounts if he doesn't conform.

 I might also mention that Focus 2000 in my view led to the dumbing down of Simmental cattle to Angus levels of growth and milk. For 20 years straight Simmental birth weights came down while weaning weights came up. Focus 2000 just insured that would no longer be the case for a while and this API index crapola will insure it never will. You know why Focus 2000 occurred AT ALL?? Large breeders like Dave Nichols had been trying to breed black cattle. Of course it was like selecting for any one single trait, if black cattle were the top criteria then the overall quality suffered. He had a whole bunch of nothing. Also, he was getting too many solid reds when trying to breed for blacks and at that time there was ZERO demand for a solid red animal, he had too many going to the stockyard. So he embarked on a tour of the country speaking at state association meetings on the ASA dollar. Supposed to be laying the foundation for these Focus 2000 meetings he preached to anyone who would listen how his animals were what we all needed and that everyone else's were "too big for the box."  Since he was so much smarter than everyone else, he would be kind enough to sell us all bulls before it was too late and the breed ruined for ever. The average number of head owned by a member of the Simmental association at that time was under 20, so a few breeders with 5 or 600 head could lead the association in what ever direction they wanted it to go.

 All of these complaints from all the folks you mentioned applied to other breeds as well, Angus included. There show bulls could step over Simmental show bulls.  I might ad that the reason the 10 frame animals of ALL breeds came about was the midget Angus based cow herds were far from beef producing machines. The animals these giraffes were intended to be bred to needed to be bred to a giraffe. Of course as the commercial cowherd changed so did the need for what type of animal was required to be produced by seedstock breeders. I certainly have no problem with the size of the cattle we now have for the most part. But I have a problem that the only thing a Simmental can do better than an Angus of today is yield. That is offset by the Angus ability to grade. We can't grow faster, milk better or last longer. We sure cant have lower birth weights, so why have a Simmental?

 As to your assertion that the breed got more efficient and more profitable, there is no data that suggests that small cows are more efficient.  Which do you deem to be more efficient, an 1100 pound cow who's calf weighs 550 at 205 days or a 1600 pound cow that weans a 650 pound calf? Its impossible to measure because the relationship of cow size to  maintenance cost is not linear. In other words a 1600 pound cow doesn't require twice as much to maintain as an 800 pound cow. It's very difficult to measure. MARC data says that there is only a 10% difference in feed efficiency between the most and least efficient animals. Growth is much like a machine that multiplies money. The more money you put into it the more money comes out. If you want a machine that only takes quarters and turns them into dollars that's fine. But a machine that takes dollars and turns them into 4 dollars is makes for a much larger number on the deposit slip. 4 and 5 frame animals are incapable of growth at that level, but it doesn't take a ten frame animal to do that either.

And as to your point to being more profitable, I would say the reason that type animal is more profitable is simply because its what people want to buy. It's not profitable simply because of type. It's profitable because it meets a demand.  If you had the same animal in the 80's early 90's that you have today  it wouldn't be profitable. It would have the exact same traits you tout as profitable today, yet no one would buy it, no one wanted those traits back in the 80's and early 90's.

The reason you make solid bulls is because thats what your bull customers want. The reason that's what they want is that if they are not, they don't get all they could get at the sale barn or where ever they choose to sell them. You'll never find a feedlot operator with any experience say that a lot of angus based (black) cattle will feed better or have better carcasses than a lot of Shorthorn cattle that are every combination of red and white you could imagine. The very antithesis of uniformity.  But he won't pay you as much for them. Why? CAB period. 

Offline GONEWEST

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2013, 03:21:33 PM »
leanbeef, I can't disagree with you about size and scale.  When we were showing steers by hip height, they'd gotten too big.  And a 1700 lb. cow was not going to wean a bigger cal than a 1300 lb. Cow and she cost a lot more to maintain.  But, Simmental, as well as the other Continental breeds were going black way before the nineties.  Again, IMO, the showring dictated in some part that those breeds go black to compete.  Influential  Simmental bulls like Steelman (1978), Coal Train (1981), Black Max (1985) an even Burns Bull X339U (1988) were big and black and way before the time you're talking...

There is nothing inaccurate about the dates of the bulls you mentioned. Black Max was not big by the way. Neither was X.  However at their times, they were simply bulls that happened to be black. To call them "influential" would be a gross overstatement. Anyone who used them were considered to be breeding them as a fad, or just to have something different. Simmental cattle and other continental breeds were not "going black" before the 90's. X has sired more cattle since 2000 than he did before.  And the first black  Simmental bull ever to win a major was Black Max son in Denver in 1992. He was the only black bull there. I had the calf champion at Denver in 1993 and he was black. There were 12 total head of black cattle there that year.

The position of the Simmental association at that time was that all colors were encouraged and accepted. What made Simmental cattle so popular at the time was that there were all these different kinds of cattle within the same breed. Flecks(German, Austrian),  Pie Rouge (Swiss, Frech) , Montbeliarde (Milking), Abondance (smaller, lighter boned),{ I don't recall ever hearing of the Italian strain here}. Besides the different strains there were fullbloods and purebreds and polled fullbloods and black ones, and gray ones and red ones. At that time the Association prided its self on diversity. It was not until after the Focus 2000 tour that the emphasis was put on solid colored cattle.

The showring has nothing to do with cattle being black. Shorthorns aren't black. They still show. The Simmental Association has only recently tried their hand at screwing up shows in recent years. Forever it was the policy of the Association not to be involved in the show ring. Just like in many breeds, as a percentage of total head, the amount of Simmental cattle that are affected by the show ring are is very small. The show ring has very little influence on the majority of the breed. Simmental cattle are black to appeal to the commercial producer as the vast majority of cattle are not related to the show ring what so ever. Commercial cattleman will not accept the discounts given to spotted cattle that don't have a chance from the beginning to qualify for CAB. There are lots of cattle in Canada that retain their original  colors and color patterns. The same judges that judge major shows here, judge them there. No pressure for cattle to be black any where in the world but here. The guy who posts here from S America can't believe we would change the characteristics of a breed just for color. Why only here? Because the branding of Angus beef by the Angus association and the gullibility of the American consumer dictates, in most everyday cases, cattle that do not have black hide are discounted at market and therefore undesirable to a commercial cattleman.

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2013, 06:16:57 PM »
Gonewest, you are correct about Purebred Simmental cattle and your show stats.  I showed a fawn and white heifer by Generation III in 1985.  A red and white daughter if E.T. In 1986.  We sold 30 "traditional" colored Simmental bulls a year, mostly to commercial cattlemen.  And our feeder calves of all colors brought above average prices at market.  The comments about going black was for show steers.  And yes, there were black Simmental steers, black Maine steers, black Limousin steers... At most Midwestern State Fairs, you almost never saw a colored calf win Grand or Reserve.  Maybe things weren't that way in other parts of the country.  Even though today you'll see colored calves win in the south, especially the slick shows, but not in the Midwest?  What win at K.C.?  Louisville?  Denver?  I'm not saying that it's the whole reason, but it was a contributing factor...

And personally, I prefer the colored Simmental cattle of the past.  The most extreme being the red baldies like Eagle or Mr. Clean.
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Offline GONEWEST

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2013, 06:53:04 PM »
Gonewest, you are correct about Purebred Simmental cattle and your show stats.  I showed a fawn and white heifer by Generation III in 1985.  A red and white daughter if E.T. In 1986.  We sold 30 "traditional" colored Simmental bulls a year, mostly to commercial cattlemen.  And our feeder calves of all colors brought above average prices at market.  The comments about going black was for show steers.  And yes, there were black Simmental steers, black Maine steers, black Limousin steers... At most Midwestern State Fairs, you almost never saw a colored calf win Grand or Reserve.  Maybe things weren't that way in other parts of the country.  Even though today you'll see colored calves win in the south, especially the slick shows, but not in the Midwest?  What win at K.C.?  Louisville?  Denver?  I'm not saying that it's the whole reason, but it was a contributing factor...

And personally, I prefer the colored Simmental cattle of the past.  The most extreme being the red baldies like Eagle or Mr. Clean.

Wasn't Generation III colored kinda like that, too? And Bold Impact.

Offline Mark H

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2013, 10:23:14 PM »
These days having a full Fleckvieh pedigree is no guarantee that you will have a traditional white faced animals with white running up from the underline.  Many Fleck breeders have been breeding the white face off in order to create a solid red full fleck animal.  They have come very close in this effort.  What we do now have is plenty of full Fleck bulls that have a white diamond on their forehead with a solid red sides and top line with white on the underline and legs.  These animals look like fullblood Maines to the average observer.   

Offline crystalcattle

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2013, 11:29:49 AM »
These days having a full Fleckvieh pedigree is no guarantee that you will have a traditional white faced animals with white running up from the underline.  Many Fleck breeders have been breeding the white face off in order to create a solid red full fleck animal.  They have come very close in this effort.  What we do now have is plenty of full Fleck bulls that have a white diamond on their forehead with a solid red sides and top line with white on the underline and legs.  These animals look like fullblood Maines to the average observer.   


You are right about the Fleckvieh changing color. My dad added this bull to our herdsire line up last year. I couldn't believe it when we he told me he was full fleck. We are using him on both our red and black purebred cows to get some outcross within the own breed. http://www.highcountrycattle.com/sires/fleck.html

It was 1992 when I showed the first Black Simmental Heifer ever at a Alberta Junior Simmental Show. She was a black baldy heifer calf, that had curly hair. She actually went onto be Reserve Champion Female that day. I was only seven years old at the time and didn't really realize what a big deal my black heifer was.

Offline leanbeef

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2013, 12:33:18 PM »
Gonewest, you are correct about Purebred Simmental cattle and your show stats.  I showed a fawn and white heifer by Generation III in 1985.  A red and white daughter if E.T. In 1986.  We sold 30 "traditional" colored Simmental bulls a year, mostly to commercial cattlemen.  And our feeder calves of all colors brought above average prices at market.  The comments about going black was for show steers.  And yes, there were black Simmental steers, black Maine steers, black Limousin steers... At most Midwestern State Fairs, you almost never saw a colored calf win Grand or Reserve.  Maybe things weren't that way in other parts of the country.  Even though today you'll see colored calves win in the south, especially the slick shows, but not in the Midwest?  What win at K.C.?  Louisville?  Denver?  I'm not saying that it's the whole reason, but it was a contributing factor...

And personally, I prefer the colored Simmental cattle of the past.  The most extreme being the red baldies like Eagle or Mr. Clean.

Wasn't Generation III colored kinda like that, too? And Bold Impact.

From what I remember in the ads, Generation III wasn't as dark red as Eagle or Mr Clean. He was a lighter shade of red with the white face, and I think white feet and belly. It does seem like the red came up to his eye on his "show side" but I'm not sure I ever saw pictures of his other side. Eagle and Mr. Clean were darker, solid red with a blaze face...not very traditional at all in terms or color pattern. And not real typical of most bulls around that time.

Offline leanbeef

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2013, 12:53:50 PM »
leanbeef, I can't disagree with you about size and scale.  When we were showing steers by hip height, they'd gotten too big.  And a 1700 lb. cow was not going to wean a bigger cal than a 1300 lb. Cow and she cost a lot more to maintain.  But, Simmental, as well as the other Continental breeds were going black way before the nineties.  Again, IMO, the showring dictated in some part that those breeds go black to compete.  Influential  Simmental bulls like Steelman (1978), Coal Train (1981), Black Max (1985) an even Burns Bull X339U (1988) were big and black and way before the time you're talking...

Yes...there were black and solid red cattle out west in the 1980s and probably some in the Midwest...I can tell you there weren't a lot of black Simmental cow herds in the Southeast in 1990. I drove to a mature cow herd dispersal in Virginia in 1990 to buy our first ones, and we started breeding to some black and solid red bulls in the early '90s. The solid color pattern was a trend within the breed, but it wasn't dictated by the commercial marketplace like it was by the mid 1990s. At least not in our part of the world.

No doubt bulls like Steelman and Coal Train laid some ground work and paved a road or two for black Simmental, and in that vein, they might be called influential. And I'm sure they saw a lot more usage and recognition in some parts of the country than here in the Southeast. I would be very surprised if their progeny registrations are anywhere close to some black bulls that came later on as popularity of black cattle increased. 600U, Black Mick, and X339U, were born in the late 1980s, but obviously their impact on the breed came later than that.

Offline leanbeef

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2013, 01:06:42 PM »
Somebody hit the nail on the head when he/she mentioned identity. In 1994, when the cattle market crashed, our identity had been tainted with a lot of characteristics that were negatively associated with commercial beef production...big frame size, hard doing, late maturing, big birth weights & calving problems. All those things were associated with traditionally colored Simmental cattle. The only way to avoid the discounts was to change all the things that were identifiable and associated with those problem cattle.

I was at a Focus 2000 seminar in the late 1990s, and we heard a LOT of people explain why Simmental cattle did NOT work in their operations, whether they were cow/calf guys, order buyers, or feedlot managers. It was tough to hear, but it all needed to be said. I don't think anybody at the time was concerned with getting CAB premiums...we just wanted to stop getting discounts! After we stopped the bleeding, we changed the breed. Breeders didn't just make the cattle black, but I think we have addressed all the measures the cattle were being criticized for. Birth weights went down, calving ease improved, cow size & feeder steer size got smaller, efficiency & profitability improved at every level in the chain. And now that we have a viable product again, why wouldn't we want to brand it and separate ourselves from all the generic black cattle out there?

I picked my first heifer based on the fact that she was red & white spotted. I was 8 years old. I still happen to like colored cattle if they're good...I don't think it matters what color they are if they're good. And I don't care what color they are if they're bad! They're still ugly.

I bought our first black cattle in 1990, and I've always liked the blaze face better than the solid blacks. The reason we try to make solid black ones is because most of our bull customers send their calves to the local stock barn at weaning time, and if we can't make their calves as uniform as possible, then they aren't getting all their calves are worth.

I just bought a black & white bull to go on Angus cows, and he wasn't easy to find! I think as more people want to make baldies out of black cows, and if they understand genetics & want to make baldies consistently, there will be a strong market for black & white bulls. You can't use a blaze faced bull on Angus cows & have a lot of luck making a high percentage of blaze faced calves.

I would have to differ with you concerning the CAB premiums not being at issue in the FOCUS 2000 meetings. There is actually no premium to the producer, only the discounts you mentioned that we wanted to get away from. The premiums are in the wholesale of meat. The producer sees no premium, only discounts if he doesn't conform.

 I might also mention that Focus 2000 in my view led to the dumbing down of Simmental cattle to Angus levels of growth and milk. For 20 years straight Simmental birth weights came down while weaning weights came up. Focus 2000 just insured that would no longer be the case for a while and this API index crapola will insure it never will. You know why Focus 2000 occurred AT ALL?? Large breeders like Dave Nichols had been trying to breed black cattle. Of course it was like selecting for any one single trait, if black cattle were the top criteria then the overall quality suffered. He had a whole bunch of nothing. Also, he was getting too many solid reds when trying to breed for blacks and at that time there was ZERO demand for a solid red animal, he had too many going to the stockyard. So he embarked on a tour of the country speaking at state association meetings on the ASA dollar. Supposed to be laying the foundation for these Focus 2000 meetings he preached to anyone who would listen how his animals were what we all needed and that everyone else's were "too big for the box."  Since he was so much smarter than everyone else, he would be kind enough to sell us all bulls before it was too late and the breed ruined for ever. The average number of head owned by a member of the Simmental association at that time was under 20, so a few breeders with 5 or 600 head could lead the association in what ever direction they wanted it to go.

 All of these complaints from all the folks you mentioned applied to other breeds as well, Angus included. There show bulls could step over Simmental show bulls.  I might ad that the reason the 10 frame animals of ALL breeds came about was the midget Angus based cow herds were far from beef producing machines. The animals these giraffes were intended to be bred to needed to be bred to a giraffe. Of course as the commercial cowherd changed so did the need for what type of animal was required to be produced by seedstock breeders. I certainly have no problem with the size of the cattle we now have for the most part. But I have a problem that the only thing a Simmental can do better than an Angus of today is yield. That is offset by the Angus ability to grade. We can't grow faster, milk better or last longer. We sure cant have lower birth weights, so why have a Simmental?

 As to your assertion that the breed got more efficient and more profitable, there is no data that suggests that small cows are more efficient.  Which do you deem to be more efficient, an 1100 pound cow who's calf weighs 550 at 205 days or a 1600 pound cow that weans a 650 pound calf? Its impossible to measure because the relationship of cow size to  maintenance cost is not linear. In other words a 1600 pound cow doesn't require twice as much to maintain as an 800 pound cow. It's very difficult to measure. MARC data says that there is only a 10% difference in feed efficiency between the most and least efficient animals. Growth is much like a machine that multiplies money. The more money you put into it the more money comes out. If you want a machine that only takes quarters and turns them into dollars that's fine. But a machine that takes dollars and turns them into 4 dollars is makes for a much larger number on the deposit slip. 4 and 5 frame animals are incapable of growth at that level, but it doesn't take a ten frame animal to do that either.

And as to your point to being more profitable, I would say the reason that type animal is more profitable is simply because its what people want to buy. It's not profitable simply because of type. It's profitable because it meets a demand.  If you had the same animal in the 80's early 90's that you have today  it wouldn't be profitable. It would have the exact same traits you tout as profitable today, yet no one would buy it, no one wanted those traits back in the 80's and early 90's.

The reason you make solid bulls is because thats what your bull customers want. The reason that's what they want is that if they are not, they don't get all they could get at the sale barn or where ever they choose to sell them. You'll never find a feedlot operator with any experience say that a lot of angus based (black) cattle will feed better or have better carcasses than a lot of Shorthorn cattle that are every combination of red and white you could imagine. The very antithesis of uniformity.  But he won't pay you as much for them. Why? CAB period. 

GONEWEST...I think you and I will have to agree to disagree on a few things. At the same time, I think we DO agree on a lot of things, and still this sounds like an argument. Maybe you didn't intend for your reply to come out as a rant, but I've read it several times, and I can't make it seem any less abrasive. You make some valid arguments, but I can't say I think we agree on all points. And I'm fine with that. You're entitled to your opinions.

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2013, 03:58:33 PM »

Wasn't Generation III colored kinda like that, too? And Bold Impact.


From what I remember in the ads, Generation III wasn't as dark red as Eagle or Mr Clean. He was a lighter shade of red with the white face, and I think white feet and belly. It does seem like the red came up to his eye on his "show side" but I'm not sure I ever saw pictures of his other side. Eagle and Mr. Clean were darker, solid red with a blaze face...not very traditional at all in terms or color pattern. And not real typical of most bulls around that time.


GONEWEST, sorry I'm just getting back to you about your question.  leanbeef has a good memory.  Here's a link to a picture of him from an earlier thread: http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/the-resurrection-of-the-1980's-simmentals/?action=dlattach;attach=104106
The interesting thing is he stamped his calves with his look.  Bred 10 out of our 150 cows to him.  My show string 2 years later consisted of 3 head, all three were sited by him.  My profile pic is that of my May Generation III heifer.  Be kind, that was the 80's...
Owner of Whispering Pines and founder of the Riley Round Up for MS Benefit Steer & Heifer Show.

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Re: Simmental coat patterns
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2013, 05:34:39 PM »
Link to properly the most recognized and successful simmi breeder in Australia at the moment achieving their success with more traditional coloured cattle. Crystalcattle know their cattle well. http://www.simmental.com.au/

 

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