Sire Selection

<party> (clapping) <party> (clapping)

If more cattlemen would pay attention to how they breed their cows they would end up with better cows.

AAOK has hit the nail on the head.  Breed strength to weakness and you will be amazed at the results.

While EPDs are a valuable tool, their is more to breeding than numbers.  I know that numbers, numbers, look at the numbers, what are the numbers have been expressed so many times.

Numbers only count for one thing, the bottom-line (Profit).  We all want to breed that animal that one in a million or just like the grand champion last year, but realistically, how likely is that to happen?

With the high cost of inputs and the increasing cost and value of replacements, the longer a cow can stay in your herd and consistently produce year after year will make more money than trying for that one in a million.

AAOK said:

A very seasoned cattleman and Club Calf producer once explained the truth of correct Show Cattle breeding selection to me, a complete stranger to the show ring as:

"A great Bull will sire great calves with a very select group of cows, but a great Cow has the potential to produce great calves with even a mediocre Bull".



So, don't waste a lot of time and money on sire selection (Bull of the Day).  Breed strictly for the heritable traits lacking in your cows, individually.[\B]

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My personal experience is literally the exact opposite.  Great bulls sire great calves regardless of what they're bred to. This is the reward savvy cattlemen receive for selecting highly prepotent sires.  I would encourage all to breed to your ideal.  Do not be tempted to engage in fire and ice matings and think you can 'trade' this trait for that. Undoubtedly you will have to compromise too much w/ this philosophy.  I know the temptation and the allure of speedy results may seem overwhelming at times, but be strong.  Display self control and stick/refer to your principles.  The results or change may not come as fast but those results that do come will come in a package that's able to replicate itself. They'll come with consistency and predictability. Most importantly, they'll breed true. 

cbcr said:

<party> (clapping) <party> (clapping)
Breed strength to weakness and you will be amazed at the results.

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Amazed isn't necessarily a positive thing.  Fire and Ice or strength to weakness breeding is not something I subscribe to.  Addressing individual's weaknesses in the herd is not only short sighted, but it loses focus of the big picture- the herd.  Change in your herd should be implemented from a macro perspective; a broad sweep of the brush; the selection and use of bulls who are as near ideal in type as you can afford.

This post reminded me of two blogs I did almost 4 years ago.  And really, they need to be read in the order I am linking them below, because without the first, the second, and all other decisions are pointless.

http://www.zntcattle.com/2010/03/decision-time.html

http://www.zntcattle.com/2010/03/which-bull-to-which-cow.html

I was patting you on the back right up until the, 'So how do I do it at ZNT?' part.   

I don't know what's worse: thinking that by breeding a frame 4 to a frame 8 that you'll likely get a frame 6 or actually getting a frame 6 out of the deal, and now with future breeding options,  having to take into consideration that your breeding piece has both a frame 8 and a frame 4 up close in the pedigree.  "That ought to be a good individual to build a consistent herd around"  :

Breed to your ideal. If you have frame 3 cows and want frame 5 cows, you don't accomplish this by breeding your cows to a frame 7 bull.  If 5 is your desired size, then use frame score 5 bulls.  Your ideal is achieved by breeding to your ideal. Similar to crossbred bulls, fire and ice matings are a dead end; a route only taken by those looking for a quick fix.  Neither have a place in a long term breeding plan.

I like your logic Xbar. <beer>

-XBAR- said:

AAOK said:

A very seasoned cattleman and Club Calf producer once explained the truth of correct Show Cattle breeding selection to me, a complete stranger to the show ring as:

"A great Bull will sire great calves with a very select group of cows, but a great Cow has the potential to produce great calves with even a mediocre Bull".



So, don't waste a lot of time and money on sire selection (Bull of the Day).  Breed strictly for the heritable traits lacking in your cows, individually.[\B]

Click to expand...

My personal experience is literally the exact opposite.  Great bulls sire great calves regardless of what they're bred to. This is the reward savvy cattlemen receive for selecting highly prepotent sires.  I would encourage all to breed to your ideal.  Do not be tempted to engage in fire and ice matings and think you can 'trade' this trait for that. Undoubtedly you will have to compromise too much w/ this philosophy.  I know the temptation and the allure of speedy results may seem overwhelming at times, but be strong.  Display self control and stick/refer to your principles.  The results or change may not come as fast but those results that do come will come in a package that's able to replicate itself. They'll come with consistency and predictability. Most importantly, they'll breed true. 

cbcr said:

<party> (clapping) <party> (clapping)
Breed strength to weakness and you will be amazed at the results.

Click to expand...

Amazed isn't necessarily a positive thing.  Fire and Ice or strength to weakness breeding is not something I subscribe to.  Addressing individual's weaknesses in the herd is not only short sighted, but it loses focus of the big picture- the herd.  Change in your herd should be implemented from a macro perspective; a broad sweep of the brush; the selection and use of bulls who are as near ideal in type as you can afford.

Click to expand...

i know you have to breed strength to weakness that's what i keep asking what bulls are adding to there calves, and not adding to there calves. even though people are getting tired of it i will keep asking

I agree AAOK, I was told by a prominent breeder to focus on the female, build a cowherd out of proven, maternal bulls, that building a cowherd is a marathon, not a sprint. I have seen many breeders crash and burn using that alleged great one on cows that lacked in several areas. (most relates to club calves). I have taken the focus on the female approach myself. I evaluated several breeds of cattle that had the traits I was after as well as cattle that work in several different scenarios. I have settled on a angus cow base breeding some purebred, some simmy, and some maine and the results have far exceeded my expectations. cattle with eye appeal and performance.

Great cows and you will be ok even when they "miss" and you sell them as salebarn cows.....    Iffy cows will be hit and miss IMO...... 

So Ryan your saying just use a universal choice and spread it on the whole herd instead of breeding "the cow" to help reach the ideal based off of what she needs. Isn't that why a.i was developed? So that you could solve problems that way and "breed the cow" instead of "breed the herd".... Somewhat like the analogy of all cattle needing to be fed differently to reach the ideal. They don't all take to the same feed the same way for the end result, nor do they nessicerily breed that same way.

Not trying to cause a riot, I'm open to everything anyone has to say just curious bored on a Saturday looking for a conversation.

I think Ryan's plan works well if you really want to build a program, and plan on utilizing line breeding to a degree. It takes time. A lot of time. But if you stick with a very consistent and prepotent sire, you'll notice a lot more uniformity within 2-3 generations.

I agree with AAOK that you need to have really good cows, but I also agree with XBAR. Fire and ice works in the show cattle business, no doubt. That's what it is built on. If you want a consistent look and phenotype along with growth then you better have consistent cows that can give you good ones. You can breed the best club calf bulls all day long to ordinary cows and get ordinary calves. A bull that overwhelming stamps his positive traits into his progeny is a good bull. You don't see very many good bulls in the club calf industry... If it sounds like I'm all over the place it's because this topic is all over the place. It's like a bubble ready to burst. 

Seriously....? Last time I heard wisdom from a club calf guy on here......was to breed th carrier to th carrier.......then shoot defective calves and throw them in dead pile. It was embryo transplant cows to bulls that throw 140# calves......then gut the receipt cow. breed pha to pha then shoot the cow if a defective calf occured. Not sure I think that there is any Winston Churchill wisdom in approaches to the industry.

And THEN you do the airing,drugs, and surgeries on the cattle.

I am with AAOK on this.  If you want to produce consistently good calves you had better focus on your females.  I read way more than I post on this forum, but do not understand when somebody asks "is this bull a cow changer?"  If you want to buy a straw of semen to put in your cow that will make a calf totally different from its mother, do look for a cow changer.  Change cows.  I cannot imagine breeding a cow that I don't like.  I sale them.  If you want quality, breed quality to quality.

I also agree with XBAR on fire and ice matings.  I don't think you should try to change frame size by more than about 1 per mating.  Just my opinion.  The times I have seen people doing the fire and ice breeding,  instead of getting the good traits from the two animals, they get the bad and end up with a piece of junk.

These are two different schools of thought that both have Merritt but belong in different areas of the industry. Clubby guy with 40 cows can afford to spend the time picking out 10 or 12 different bulls to mate his cows how he chooses. On the other hand a purebred producer that needs to produce uniform bulls to market to his customers likely has to make choices like i want to breed all 50 daughters of bull xyz to bull abc. Both can work, however you have to breed with a vision for whatever the end product will be.

Show stopper 95 said:

So Ryan your saying just use a universal choice and spread it on the whole herd instead of breeding "the cow" to help reach the ideal based off of what she needs. Isn't that why a.i was developed? So that you could solve problems that way and "breed the cow" instead of "breed the herd".... Somewhat like the analogy of all cattle needing to be fed differently to reach the ideal. They don't all take to the same feed the same way for the end result, nor do they nessicerily breed that same way.

Not trying to cause a riot, I'm open to everything anyone has to say just curious bored on a Saturday looking for a conversation.

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While I'm sure some use AI this way, I see its purpose as being able to sample/incorporate bulls either 1)that you'd never be able to afford to purchase or B) that you want to test the bloodlines before purchasing.  Until you use a "herd bull" and start producing related progeny, you will  never get over the having to "breed the cow" stage and into a stage where you herd can make broad leaps in production.  The only way to reach the point where you can "breed the herd" is to first breed stability and consistency in the herd.  True, someone may be able to scout the country and build a very similar phenotype herd of un related cows piece by piece, but this is going to take one hell of cattlemen to not only select cattle that lookalike phenotypically but ones that also perform similarly at each stage of production as well.  The soundest and most effective approach is to select and use a herd bull who epitomizes the direction you want your herd to advance in and then return his daughters who reflect your ideal.  Undoubtedly, his daughters will be a step in this direction  Not only have you moved your HERD a step in the direction you want, but now you have injected some consistency and predictability into your breeding pieces. The consistency you injected here, and in each generation w/ this approach going forward, will allow you to make greater advancements generation after generation. With each generation, the tighter bred your herd becomes, the more predictable you breedings become and the more reliable contemporary group you establish.  The results of this approach will be an end to having to 'feed each of your cows differently to reach your ideal."  It will put an end to trying to cherry pick traits your want to improve in  cows 'individually.'  This approach will be useless as, now, your cow herd shares the same strengths and weaknesses.  Your herd will look the same, they'll feed the same, they'll breed the same.  You'll be able to address the weakness across the board.  I think it's important to remember that behind everyone of those 'great cows that never misses' is a highly prepotent sire and the surest way to create those 'great cows that never miss (your goal)' is to continue to use bulls that -in the flesh- reflect your goals.

DakotaCow said:

These are two different schools of thought that both have Merritt but belong in different areas of the industry. Clubby guy with 40 cows can afford to spend the time picking out 10 or 12 different bulls to mate his cows how he chooses. On the other hand a purebred producer that needs to produce uniform bulls to market to his customers likely has to make choices like i want to breed all 50 daughters of bull xyz to bull abc. Both can work, however you have to breed with a vision for whatever the end product will be.

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One mode is used by the multiplier trying to hit a quick lick- the other, practiced by renowned cattle breeders who recognize that, as with anything, a foundation must be first established.  Fall in line where you may.

After reading and rereading this topic, I can understand both sides, and I have come to the conclusion, that there is no right answer. I think it really depends on your operation and your goals. Breeding clubby type cattle, your cows do not have to be identical, they have to have all the right parts, but they do not have to be uniform. If breeding for replacements you would want to improve where they are weaker, so what AAOK stated is what worked in his herd. A lot of the club calf herds are either crossbred or made up of several breeds, so breeding for the individual cow makes perfect sense.

Now X-BAR is on a completely different path, his program is to build a herd that is uniform; I can see where sire selection would make this easier over all, as long as you cull hard. You are breeding for cattle to fit into a certain box or type; if they do not fit they need to be culled. As time goes on that box becomes smaller and smaller, eventually leaving you with a tight uniform group of cattle.

Show cattle (especially steers) is about the calf that is a little more extreme, stands out over the others, basically a little outside the box, now if breeding registered cattle for show, I think you fall somewhere in between, always breeding for one just a little better than the others.

I think if you are a breeder of registered cattle your goal would be for a show ring full of your calves, so uniform, that a judge could not pick a winner. As a show calf breeder you might not sale many calves if yours looked just like all the others.

I do like to look at a uniform herd of cows, but I also still love to look at the calf that just stands out in a pen of calves as well, I can appreciate both programs.

Unlike some on here I do not think there is always just one way to do things (his way), you can get to the same results by taking different paths, as long as you can stick to a path make sound decisions, and not jump from trend to trend.

vc said:

After reading and rereading this topic, I can understand both sides, and I have come to the conclusion, that there is no right answer. I think it really depends on your operation and your goals. Breeding clubby type cattle, your cows do not have to be identical, they have to have all the right parts, but they do not have to be uniform. If breeding for replacements you would want to improve where they are weaker, so what AAOK stated is what worked in his herd. A lot of the club calf herds are either crossbred or made up of several breeds, so breeding for the individual cow makes perfect sense.

Now X-BAR is on a completely different path, his program is to build a herd that is uniform; I can see where sire selection would make this easier over all, as long as you cull hard. You are breeding for cattle to fit into a certain box or type; if they do not fit they need to be culled. As time goes on that box becomes smaller and smaller, eventually leaving you with a tight uniform group of cattle.

Show cattle (especially steers) is about the calf that is a little more extreme, stands out over the others, basically a little outside the box, now if breeding registered cattle for show, I think you fall somewhere in between, always breeding for one just a little better than the others.

I think if you are a breeder of registered cattle your goal would be for a show ring full of your calves, so uniform, that a judge could not pick a winner. As a show calf breeder you might not sale many calves if yours looked just like all the others.
I do like to look at a uniform herd of cows, but I also still love to look at the calf that just stands out in a pen of calves as well, I can appreciate both programs.

Unlike some on here I do not think there is always just one way to do things (his way), you can get to the same results by taking different paths, as long as you can stick to a path make sound decisions, and not jump from trend to trend.

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You're going to have superior outliers who fall "outside the box" even in a well bred herd.  This idea that you don't want a consistent cow herd in the clubby world because you want those "outside the box' calves just doesn't make any sense.  Your reference point is all wrong.  Just because your calves are tightly bred and are highly similar to the other calves in your herd doesn't mean your calves are going to 'look just like all the other calves in others' herds.'  In fact, it should be quite the opposite: they should look like no one else's as no one else will have had your maternal foundation.  The calf that 'stands out' in a pen that you 'just love to look at' might not be a 'stand out' at all when lined up against better cattle.  If your goal is to bred for a little more extreme type show cattle that stand out over the others, then bred for cows that are outside the 'industry's box' and attain this goal.  Whatever your goal, a well bred, closely related cow base will better assist you. 

My goal is to build a herd this is predictable, first and foremost.  It just so happens that the most sure fire way of achieving this is to establish uniformity in your herd.