Steer Planet - Show Steers and Club Calves Forum

Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: librarian on April 25, 2018, 07:53:04 AM

Title: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: librarian on April 25, 2018, 07:53:04 AM
Great pictures and info on many old bulls. A few pictures I've never seen.
https://www.heritageshorthorn.org/bulls/ (https://www.heritageshorthorn.org/bulls/)
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: justintime on April 25, 2018, 08:23:01 AM
I have semen on several of these bulls and remember many more of them. Some were bulls that could sire some useful cattle for today, and some weren't very good when they walked on earth and would be even less good today. I have semen in my tanks from Crestdale Super Flag 14G, Boa Kae Royal Oak, Four Point Major, Hub's Director, Mandalong Super Flag, TPS Coronet Leader 21st, and Meadowbrook Chieftain 16th.
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: aj on April 25, 2018, 08:32:16 AM
Interesting site. Good organization. Doesn't hurt to have a large gene pool around.
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: kiblercattle on April 25, 2018, 02:19:14 PM
I have always wondered how tiny Tim would work today. Does anyone have any different picture of him than the web site shows. This is the only picture of him I've ever seen.
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: GM on April 25, 2018, 06:57:50 PM
Who would you eliminate from this group?  Scottshill Major Clark has my vote.  Could be in the running with Ayatollah, Improver, and Dreamboat for biggest longterm negative impact. 
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: mark tenenbaum on April 25, 2018, 11:02:26 PM
Who would you eliminate from this group?  Scottshill Major Clark has my vote.  Could be in the running with Ayatollah, Improver, and Dreamboat for biggest longterm negative impact. // (clapping) (clapping) (lol) <party> <party> (thumbsup)
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: Doc on April 26, 2018, 04:51:55 AM
Who would you eliminate from this group?  Scottshill Major Clark has my vote.  Could be in the running with Ayatollah, Improver, and Dreamboat for biggest longterm negative impact.

 Just curious why you would eliminate Clark and Improver?
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: GM on April 26, 2018, 06:38:32 AM
Dairy, and TH. 
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: Medium Rare on April 26, 2018, 09:23:11 AM
The variation in type and kind as you go down the list is interesting.

I believe I still have 7 of these bulls, but I see two or three I wish I had. One of these days I'd like to find a couple "native" cows being kept in normal pasture conditions that just blow me away.
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: justintime on April 26, 2018, 10:07:49 AM
I just realized that I wrote Meadowbrook Chieftain 16th in my original comment here. I intended to say Meadowbrook Prince 16th and Meadowbrook Chieftain 9th.
I had some outstanding daughters of Meadowbrook Chieftain 9th and I still consider them to be some of the best females I ever owned. They all had near perfect udders, milked well and maintained their condition on grass and hay to eat. They were moderate framed, had some guts and adequate muscling. In my herd, Chieftain 9th sired much better females than bulls. I remember one very good bull from him, but most leaned a bit too far to the dairy side when it came to having adequate muscling. This never showed up as much with his daughters, probably because the genetics behind Chieftain 9th were selected mainly on good females for decades and many generations. I also have a couple vials of Meadowbrook Prince 16th, who was much more popular in that era, however, I always felt that Chieftain 9th was the better breeding bull.  I found his daughters to be more consistent than the Prince 16th daughters, but a good Prince 16th daughter was very very good!
I will always remember my first trip to Ontario to view some dual purpose herds. I was fresh out of college and was thinking of adding a couple dual purpose females to our herd as we were planning to increase the size of our herd. After one day of viewing herds, I phoned my dad and told him I had just seen some of the best Shorthorn cows I had ever seen, and that I could buy some at pretty reasonable prices. Dad told me to try to buy some and I ended up buying 38 cows. I remember buying 10 cows in one herd, that were sorted off and waiting for a truck to pick them up and take them to the slaughter plant. I bought them all for $300 each. If I had got to this farm 30 minutes later, I would never have seen them. They turned out to be some of the best producing cows I ever owned. The owner was shipping them as they were in the bottom end of his herd's milk production and that was exactly what I was wanting for beef cows. I remember walking into many of these barns and being absolutely amazed by the quality I was looking at. I don't think there are any of these true dual purpose herds left in Canada, as they have all moved to breeding for milk production and dairy characteristics. The only place I have seen any dual purpose Shorthorns even close to similar to these cows, was at the Royal Highland show in Scotland a few years ago. There was a few similar cows showing in the Milking Shorthorn show there.
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: beebe on April 26, 2018, 12:30:54 PM
The variation in type and kind as you go down the list is interesting.

I believe I still have 7 of these bulls, but I see two or three I wish I had. One of these days I'd like to find a couple "native" cows being kept in normal pasture conditions that just blow me away.
Just curious as to what it would take to blow you away?
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: Medium Rare on April 26, 2018, 01:26:56 PM
Just curious as to what it would take to blow you away?
A cow that looks similar to the one you brought out of Canada with some tweaks would probably work.

Frame 5.5-6, a big wide top, good depth, and correct hook/pin set, a good calving interval over 6 or 7 calves while still carrying a good udder, all done in a real world working setting and not a hobby type situation where they fall apart when I bring them home. If she had a fescue score that didn't scare me, a line bred pedigree, and some progeny scan data with better than average imf ratios it would help. Basically, a proven cow or two I could flush a time or three with my limited semen and come away with a small group to work with. No belt buckles, no frail structure, no bottle teats, no terrible weaning weights. Modern performance in a true native package that I wouldn't regret using my last Leader 9th on.

I think I know where to go, and I've noticed their scan data, but have just not made the effort to get up there to see what a guy might find.
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: Doc on April 26, 2018, 06:13:21 PM
Dairy, and TH.

In the day Clark did a lot of good with some daughters and granddaughters. As far as Improver goes, TH or no TH, he flat produced some females. Look at the line of Margies.
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: GM on April 26, 2018, 06:35:04 PM
Dairy, and TH.

In the day Clark did a lot of good with some daughters and granddaughters. As far as Improver goes, TH or no TH, he flat produced some females. Look at the line of Margies.
I don't necessarily disagree, but in hindsight they both had negative impacts (to whatever degree) on the breed's current reputation in the beef industry.  If no Clark, would we have beefier, more commercially accepted cattle today, or did he exacerbate the size issues and notion that shorthorns were "milkers"?  And, if no Improver and subsequently no TH would the breed ultimately have a better reputation today.  That's where I was coming from with the question.  Can't deny that each produced winners and special offspring in their day.  That's a fact - as you point out.  Hindsight is 20/20.  Interesting to think about.  Of the bulls I mentioned I'd take a pasture full of TH free sons and daughters of improver over the other three anyday.  I actually really like him but he created a huge quagmire for Shorthorn breeders.
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: beebe on April 26, 2018, 10:35:18 PM
Just curious as to what it would take to blow you away?
A cow that looks similar to the one you brought out of Canada with some tweaks would probably work.

Frame 5.5-6, a big wide top, good depth, and correct hook/pin set, a good calving interval over 6 or 7 calves while still carrying a good udder, all done in a real world working setting and not a hobby type situation where they fall apart when I bring them home. If she had a fescue score that didn't scare me, a line bred pedigree, and some progeny scan data with better than average imf ratios it would help. Basically, a proven cow or two I could flush a time or three with my limited semen and come away with a small group to work with. No belt buckles, no frail structure, no bottle teats, no terrible weaning weights. Modern performance in a true native package that I wouldn't regret using my last Leader 9th on.

I think I know where to go, and I've noticed their scan data, but have just not made the effort to get up there to see what a guy might find.
Thanks for the information.  You want bigger framed cows than I do.  I don't have fescue and I worry more about tenderness than I do marbling.  What frame score do you consider belt buckle?  I prefer a frame score 4 1250 pound cow.  Nothing frail about that.  Since I don't sell much to the commodity market I worry more about the composition of the gain than I do the rate of gain.  I probably have some of what you are looking for but it is a work in progress.
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: mark tenenbaum on April 26, 2018, 11:18:41 PM
Like to see some pictures of the 4.5 frame 1250-1400 pounders-gotta be stout O0
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: Medium Rare on April 26, 2018, 11:39:21 PM
Thanks for the information.  You want bigger framed cows than I do.  I don't have fescue and I worry more about tenderness than I do marbling.  What frame score do you consider belt buckle?  I prefer a frame score 4 1250 pound cow.  Nothing frail about that.  Since I don't sell much to the commodity market I worry more about the composition of the gain than I do the rate of gain.  I probably have some of what you are looking for but it is a work in progress.

Unfortunately, fescue tolerance has to trump absolutely everything here. It can cull harder and faster than the most aggressive of cowmen. Anything near a 2 is belt buckle to me and even a 3 is hard for me to look at. I personally don't have a problem with frame 4 - 1250lb cows, but the open or bred replacements in that range are a tough sell here.

How are you applying selection pressure for tenderness?
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: beebe on April 27, 2018, 12:12:56 AM
I will take some pictures.  I apply a lot of Gerald Fry's principles and I sample a lot of carcasses.  I have done some DNA testing but I am still scratching my head on some of that.
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: idalee on April 27, 2018, 09:28:38 AM
Medium Rare,  I have three Native cows that somewhat fit what  you are looking for but I don't have all the data you require.   BW,  WW  and some YW is all that I have.    Some would call me a hobby breeder but our cattle never see grain,  only hay when the pastures play out,  and their natural fleshing ability gets them fat on that program. 
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR on April 29, 2018, 02:03:16 PM
 8)
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: Duncraggan on April 29, 2018, 02:49:00 PM
Medium Rare,  I have three Native cows that somewhat fit what  you are looking for but I don't have all the data you require.   BW,  WW  and some YW is all that I have.    Some would call me a hobby breeder but our cattle never see grain,  only hay when the pastures play out,  and their natural fleshing ability gets them fat on that program.
<band> This is where I am heading! Sold my first breeding females last week, after 15 years of breeding Shorthorns! Couldn't bring myself to sell something I wouldn't use myself.
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: aj on April 30, 2018, 08:49:44 AM
I bought a bull at Lovings ......that I think has an old timey look. Lot 6. Deep ribbed, not tall, kinda average on things but all traits above average. No old time genetics but I think kind of fits the bill.
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: beebe on May 06, 2018, 03:14:55 PM
Like to see some pictures of the 4.5 frame 1250-1400 pounders-gotta be stout O0
  Here are the pictures you requested.  I don't measure and weigh every cow but I think these are approximately frame score 4, 1250-1400 pound cows. The first one is what I consider to be my best cow.
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: mark tenenbaum on May 06, 2018, 11:39:03 PM
Thanks-they look kind what I thought they would look like and take me back alot of years-to me-they favor the Dover and Ralph Larson cattle. Back in the day-2975 really worked on ones like these over the Dairy blood like Ayatollah.They maintained the depth of body and maybe gained thickness in some cases. AND NO NOT EVERYONE OF THEM WERE BAD UDDERED Seen alot of cattle that went back to Warrior-such as some of the other Kimhillhills-Augusta Prides, and way earlier.His dam was a 2975-Af Deerpark Kimilhill-CCS Kimillhill that Wankel showed I believe went back to him too-beautiful thick cow. The fullblood maines that Doc Son has posted on here have really evolved all the way around-First and foremost BWS-Structure etc.They in some cases are related to G-9 and 2975-through Cunia. BUT- I would like to see some from the best breeding Proud Jazz son I have seen OF ALL-(I could put together a BOOK of really good progeny-that are low bw 6 years worth of calves totalling at least 80 on one farm They are correct and GROW Pictured is an A Typical long yearling son-who reminds me very much of the White hiefers sire from Montana posted awhile back KC clipper Duke I think) With a very moderate BW this caf is deceptively heavy-and weighs over 1300 pounds-but is MAYBE a frame 5 max-at 13 or so months, His sire would definitely work-and would weigh maybe 23-2400 fat-about a 5 frame-0 -1.2 BW-triple clean. Alot of the old breeding is there both proud jazz and Irish-which would knick with yours JMO. I know point blank in type they would. O0
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: beebe on May 07, 2018, 06:02:57 AM
Thank you.  I don't mind having them being compared to Dover and Ralph Larson cattle.  They work for me.  I really appreciate the disposition on these cattle as my rodeo days are behind me.  All my cattle are developed without grain so that I can identify the ones that can not thrive in an all forage environment.
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: idalee on May 07, 2018, 08:47:37 PM
Those are nice cows,  Beebe.   They are so well balanced,   I would have guessed they were bigger than that.   
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: beebe on May 07, 2018, 11:27:19 PM
Those are nice cows,  Beebe.   They are so well balanced,   I would have guessed they were bigger than that.
Thank you.  The two on the bottom are daughters of DMH Minn Max Leader.  He is just about a frame score 4.
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: mark tenenbaum on May 08, 2018, 12:58:00 AM
Out of curiosity what do you think the "minn maax leader" 4 frame bull wieghs? O0
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: beebe on May 08, 2018, 07:03:18 AM
Good question.  He is a chunk, maybe 1800.  That is just a guess.
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: -XBAR- on May 08, 2018, 12:18:54 PM
I would like to see some from the best breeding Proud Jazz son I have seen OF ALL-

Who is this?

Im going back using a 10yr old JPJ son this year over the type of cows you describe. Reduce frame, add upper rib, add muscle-- I think this is going to be a really good cross as well.
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: mark tenenbaum on May 09, 2018, 12:05:00 AM
He is very thin in the picture-after the Iowa drouth and a bad winter but coming around-Hes first bull on the left-but hes sired some really good show and commercially oriented calves that make good bulls and cows I just dont have room for many Will on here has seen the females too-Hes triple clean PROVEN CE-Proud Jazz X a full sib to KABA Rose And-hes for sale or lease-My pics are horrible,including the young calf pictured  above in this thread -you"d have to see them. O0
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: -XBAR- on May 09, 2018, 11:57:25 AM
Thatís about as fat as heíd ever get at my place.  Iíve been looking for a mature white bull.  Jazz son makes it all the better. Send me some contact info on him please
903.819.9955 ryandchandler@gmail.com

Hereís a cpl 4-4.5 frame 1150 max type cows.  A 1400lb cow on this frame is a huge cow that I canít imagine being even close to able to weaning half her weight.
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: mark tenenbaum on May 09, 2018, 03:01:15 PM
Will do-hes delivering some to Texas here shortly-does alot of business in Texas-Ive watched this bull for six years but hes still arhletic and JMO one of the best Jazzes Ive seen-Hes made some cows too O0
Title: Re: site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985
Post by: mark tenenbaum on May 10, 2018, 07:34:16 PM
Dairy, and TH.

In the day Clark did a lot of good with some daughters and granddaughters. As far as Improver goes, TH or no TH, he flat produced some females. Look at the line of Margies.// Dont forget Improvers Stride-and Brookwood Gladiator his full sib IN BLOOD both out of KABA ROSE and her full sib-I saw some very nice famales out of both of them from Tennessee etc=PS I ended up with a bunch of Gladiator semen if you ever want to do a little trading O0 O0