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Offline justintime

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Re: Some herd sires from the past
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2010, 07:01:52 PM »
I had a visit with Charlie Campbell at Agribition last Friday. He still looks good for being in his 80s. I think his cows are all gone now, with the exception of a few his nephew runs on a commercial basis. Charlie has been stone deaf for several years and it is very hard to visit with him. I tried to ask him some questions but his answers had nothing to do with what I asked about.  I do wish this man was in his 30s rather than his 80s, as we could use more breeders like him. He was one of the most progressive thinkers I ever met, even when he was at the end of his career. He collected carcass data on his herd for over 30 years, and he had advanced the carcass quality in his herd without sacrificing the maternal traits in his herd. He never was a man to follow the crowd but he did things his own way. When I used to work on the Canadian Shorthorn Report magazine in Regina, I used to oftentimes, run out and go through Charlie's pasture as it was about 8 miles west of the Exhibition grounds in Regina. There were some excellent cows there.

I remember Cumberland Gay Lad when he was the senior herdsire at South Plain. We thought he was a giant in those days, and he probably was for that day. Charlie told me once that he weighed 2500 lbs when he was 8 years old. I guarantee that his weight came from his massive body and not from his hip height. He was a tank of a bull, and he sired the top gaining set of Shorthorn bulls at the U of S Test Station every year he had sons entered there. On two occasions Charlie's Group of Gay Lad sons were top gaining group over all breeds. If my memory is correct one set of bulls topped the bull test at 4.12 lbs/ day. One of his top gaining groups, consisting of 5 Gay Lad sons averaged over $2500 in the early 70s. I still have about a dozen vials of Gay Lad semen left, and I will be using it all in more flushes.
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Offline coyote

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Re: Some herd sires from the past
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2010, 09:54:55 PM »
Here are a couple pictures of our Gay Lad sons that we had this year. I thought the calves would of been smaller framed, but they both compare very well with our other calves. They are very long with big testicles. Their Adjusted 205 day wt were 651 lbs and 659 lbs, our bulls averaged 650.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 09:57:37 PM by coyote »
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Offline thunderdownunder

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Re: Some herd sires from the past
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2010, 11:00:42 PM »
Here are a couple pictures of our Gay Lad sons that we had this year. I thought the calves would of been smaller framed, but they both compare very well with our other calves. They are very long with big testicles. Their Adjusted 205 day wt were 651 lbs and 659 lbs, our bulls averaged 650.



They're some pretty handy calves... the top one looks like he'll turn a few heads.
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Offline r.n.reed

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Re: Some herd sires from the past
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2010, 07:29:40 AM »
Wait till word gets out the Canadians are  using an American bred bull! :)Does anyone  know anything about the George Knox herd?I saw a son of Weston Surprise 14th a couple months ago that looks real good to me.The 14th was out of the same cow as the Lad and carried a lot of the Knox breeding.Weston Shamrock also was bred similar.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2010, 07:31:25 AM by r.n.reed »
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Offline sue

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Re: Some herd sires from the past
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2010, 10:47:37 AM »
Here are a couple pictures of our Gay Lad sons that we had this year. I thought the calves would of been smaller framed, but they both compare very well with our other calves. They are very long with big testicles. Their Adjusted 205 day wt were 651 lbs and 659 lbs, our bulls averaged 650.


They do look nice and I think 650 is a good place to be for an adjusted 205 too.

 I dont know if Weston Shamrock is really what the paper says... the bull was possibly a "misprint" .

What I have appreciated most about digging up old material with steers on feed and such - is even then the test was smart enough to take a close look at #  DAYS ON FEED AND NOT just who gained 4 lbs/day.

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Offline Okotoks

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Re: Some herd sires from the past
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2010, 11:07:16 AM »
Wait till word gets out the Canadians are  using an American bred bull! :)Does anyone  know anything about the George Knox herd?I saw a son of Weston Surprise 14th a couple months ago that looks real good to me.The 14th was out of the same cow as the Lad and carried a lot of the Knox breeding.Weston Shamrock also was bred similar.

TPS CORONET GALAXY 10TH  was the sire of CUMBERLAND GAY LAD. He was also the sire of two full sisters that had the same name. Reg. #3411175  MAYFLOWER GAL  and Reg. #  x3372207 MAYFLOWER GAL. One of these was the dam of Ready Go.  Galaxy 10th was a double bred  CORONET MAX JUGGLER 18TH and his dam was a paternal sister to TPS Coronet Leader 21st.  He also had some horned Scottish breeding as his grand dam was an imported cow BAPTON MARCIA RAMSDEN by CALROSSIE CONSTELLATION. Would anyone have a photo of TPS CORONET GALAXY 10TH ?

Offline Okotoks

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Re: Some herd sires from the past
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2010, 11:50:35 AM »
Here are a couple pictures of our Gay Lad sons that we had this year. I thought the calves would of been smaller framed, but they both compare very well with our other calves. They are very long with big testicles. Their Adjusted 205 day wt were 651 lbs and 659 lbs, our bulls averaged 650.


They do look nice and I think 650 is a good place to be for an adjusted 205 too.

 I dont know if Weston Shamrock is really what the paper says... the bull was possibly a "misprint" .

What I have appreciated most about digging up old material with steers on feed and such - is even then the test was smart enough to take a close look at #  DAYS ON FEED AND NOT just who gained 4 lbs/day.


So Weston Shamrock was born in Sept. of 1969 so this assumption he is not the right pedigree is 41 years old! There's quite a few bulls out there that I have heard the same thing about and most were used a lot and can be found in a lot of pedigrees. The interesting thing is no one ever says what they really were or what the facts are to back it up. I know of one influential cow in Canada and the people that make the accusations didn't see fit to report it at the time and supposedly they could have! It's a little disturbing to think we have influential bulls with the wrong pedigrees but if no one provides any back up what can you do? I find it almost easier to deal with the lack of a  Dover pedigree or a Deerpark Foundation pedigree than the speculation on some. I did see the Weston Shamrock bull as an aged bull and he was impressive.

Offline justintime

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Re: Some herd sires from the past
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2010, 12:15:42 PM »
I think it is safe to say that some of the Weston pedigrees were.... let's just say they may have been a little creative. I don't think we have to worry about their being other breeds in the mix, but I think some of the pedigrees were convenient. This is really too bad as the Weston herd ranks as the best all round set of Shorthorn cows I have ever seen. I used to visit there at least twice a year, and I purchased several herd bulls and females from the Nold family. The cow herd was over 200 breeding females in that day and they were an awesome set.
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and bad breath!
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
If love is blind... why is lingerie so popular?
The only thing worse than an idiot ... is an educated idiot!

Offline Okotoks

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Re: Some herd sires from the past
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2010, 12:35:17 PM »
I think it is safe to say that some of the Weston pedigrees were.... let's just say they may have been a little creative. I don't think we have to worry about their being other breeds in the mix, but I think some of the pedigrees were convenient. This is really too bad as the Weston herd ranks as the best all round set of Shorthorn cows I have ever seen. I used to visit there at least twice a year, and I purchased several herd bulls and females from the Nold family. The cow herd was over 200 breeding females in that day and they were an awesome set.
I agree the Weston herd was one of the best I have ever seen. I just don't understand the motivation for changing the pedigrees. Were the bulls being used from unpopular lines so called something else?

Offline sue

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Re: Some herd sires from the past
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2010, 12:49:19 PM »
Based on what I know . Yes, not popular lines but sure all shorthorn.
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Offline justintime

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Re: Some herd sires from the past
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2010, 12:56:22 PM »
Here are a couple pictures of our Gay Lad sons that we had this year. I thought the calves would of been smaller framed, but they both compare very well with our other calves. They are very long with big testicles. Their Adjusted 205 day wt were 651 lbs and 659 lbs, our bulls averaged 650.


They do look nice and I think 650 is a good place to be for an adjusted 205 too.

 I dont know if Weston Shamrock is really what the paper says... the bull was possibly a "misprint" .

What I have appreciated most about digging up old material with steers on feed and such - is even then the test was smart enough to take a close look at #  DAYS ON FEED AND NOT just who gained 4 lbs/day.


So Weston Shamrock was born in Sept. of 1969 so this assumption he is not the right pedigree is 41 years old! There's quite a few bulls out there that I have heard the same thing about and most were used a lot and can be found in a lot of pedigrees. The interesting thing is no one ever says what they really were or what the facts are to back it up. I know of one influential cow in Canada and the people that make the accusations didn't see fit to report it at the time and supposedly they could have! It's a little disturbing to think we have influential bulls with the wrong pedigrees but if no one provides any back up what can you do? I find it almost easier to deal with the lack of a  Dover pedigree or a Deerpark Foundation pedigree than the speculation on some. I did see the Weston Shamrock bull as an aged bull and he was impressive.



When I used to visit the Weston herd, they always had a binder with copies of all the cows pedigree's in the truck. I was always amazed that some of the very best cows had pedigrees with lots of Saskatchewan and Manitoba bloodlines in them. I remember several great cows " on paper" were bred in a Saskatchewan herd that I was very familiar with. I had never seen cows of this caliber in this herd, but just assumed that Doc Nold had got lucky and been able to buy the top end of the herd.

One of the main reasons I purchased Ready Go at the 1973 Polled Congress in Louisville was because he was a Weston Shamrock son. I had seen Shamrock at Nold's on many occasions and I felt he was an amazing beef bull. A few years later, I was looking for a bull to use on my Ready Go daughters. I went to the American Polled Congress again, and I was the runner up bidder on the Grand Champion bull, Mollie's Defender Adair( nicknamed Surge) who sold for $15500 to R Lee Johnson ( Millbrook Shorthorns). After the sale I tried to buy a 1/2 interest in Surge, but was not able to come to an agreement with R Lee. Surge was born and bred in the herd of Rueben Shantz in Nebraska, which was probably the best herd of dual purpose Shorthorns I ever saw.

Many many years later, I had the opportunity to have a visit with Bill Marsden who had sold Surge at the Polled Congress. Bill was now raising Angus cattle in South Dakota and we had a great talk about the Weston program. Bill was the herd manager at Weston for a few years, so he was very familiar with the herd.It was in this visit that Marsden told me that Ready Go and  Surge were full brothers. He also told me that Weston Shamrock also was a Shantz bred bull. He also told me about some of the breeding in some of the best Weston cows. He said he was certain that the Weston herd was 100% Shorthorn, but that many of the pedigrees had been " adjusted " to fit the times. I was not certain if I totally believed what I was told, so I did some homework when I got back home. When I looked up the dam of Surge, I found that she had a red bull calf born on the same day as Ready Go, and it carried the same tattoo as he had. Was this a coincidence? I think it is highly unlikely. As a side note, Bill Marsden was killed in a car accident shortly after our visit.

So, my educated guess is that Ready Go was a dual purpose bull and his pedigree was probably steeped in some of the great Haumont lines. Does this information change my thoughts on this bull? Not really, other than I do wish that I could have accepted his pedigree as fact. Ready Go was an excellent breeding bull but his real pedigree probably helps explain why his daughters had such flawless udders and milked extremely well. He was a bull that would correct even the poorest udder in one generation. I remember selling Ready Go semen to a breeder who had some cows with about the worst udders I had ever seen. When I saw the Ready Go daughters out of some of these cows, I could not believe my eyes. They had well formed udders with small teat size, just like the other Ready Go daughters I had seen. As I have mentioned before on SP, Ready Go is the only bull I have owned that I am still selling semen from every year, despite it being almost 40 years since I purchased him.

I am certain that there are a percentage of pedigrees that are not correct in every year. Some are incorrect by mistake, and others are done intentionally. I find it interesting that when I was in Scotland, I was told that a well known breeding establishment had refused to provide DNA profiles on some of the bull calves that a group of British breeders were trying to purchase. There may have been good reasons for this, but the Brits certainly felt that this was simply because the calves in question were not what their papers suggested.
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and bad breath!
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
If love is blind... why is lingerie so popular?
The only thing worse than an idiot ... is an educated idiot!

Offline Okotoks

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Re: Some herd sires from the past
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2010, 01:09:26 PM »
Here are a couple pictures of our Gay Lad sons that we had this year. I thought the calves would of been smaller framed, but they both compare very well with our other calves. They are very long with big testicles. Their Adjusted 205 day wt were 651 lbs and 659 lbs, our bulls averaged 650.


They do look nice and I think 650 is a good place to be for an adjusted 205 too.

 I dont know if Weston Shamrock is really what the paper says... the bull was possibly a "misprint" .

What I have appreciated most about digging up old material with steers on feed and such - is even then the test was smart enough to take a close look at #  DAYS ON FEED AND NOT just who gained 4 lbs/day.


So Weston Shamrock was born in Sept. of 1969 so this assumption he is not the right pedigree is 41 years old! There's quite a few bulls out there that I have heard the same thing about and most were used a lot and can be found in a lot of pedigrees. The interesting thing is no one ever says what they really were or what the facts are to back it up. I know of one influential cow in Canada and the people that make the accusations didn't see fit to report it at the time and supposedly they could have! It's a little disturbing to think we have influential bulls with the wrong pedigrees but if no one provides any back up what can you do? I find it almost easier to deal with the lack of a  Dover pedigree or a Deerpark Foundation pedigree than the speculation on some. I did see the Weston Shamrock bull as an aged bull and he was impressive.



When I used to visit the Weston herd, they always had a binder with copies of all the cows pedigree's in the truck. I was always amazed that some of the very best cows had pedigrees with lots of Saskatchewan and Manitoba bloodlines in them. I remember several great cows " on paper" were bred in a Saskatchewan herd that I was very familiar with. I had never seen cows of this caliber in this herd, but just assumed that Doc Nold had got lucky and been able to buy the top end of the herd.

One of the main reasons I purchased Ready Go at the 1973 Polled Congress in Louisville was because he was a Weston Shamrock son. I had seen Shamrock at Nold's on many occasions and I felt he was an amazing beef bull. A few years later, I was looking for a bull to use on my Ready Go daughters. I went to the American Polled Congress again, and I was the runner up bidder on the Grand Champion bull, Mollie's Defender Adair( nicknamed Surge) who sold for $15500 to R Lee Johnson ( Millbrook Shorthorns). After the sale I tried to buy a 1/2 interest in Surge, but was not able to come to an agreement with R Lee. Surge was born and bred in the herd of Rueben Shantz in Nebraska, which was probably the best herd of dual purpose Shorthorns I ever saw.

Many many years later, I had the opportunity to have a visit with Bill Marsden who had sold Surge at the Polled Congress. Bill was now raising Angus cattle in South Dakota and we had a great talk about the Weston program. Bill was the herd manager at Weston for a few years, so he was very familiar with the herd.It was in this visit that Marsden told me that Ready Go and  Surge were full brothers. He also told me that Weston Shamrock also was a Shantz bred bull. He also told me about some of the breeding in some of the best Weston cows. He said he was certain that the Weston herd was 100% Shorthorn, but that many of the pedigrees had been " adjusted " to fit the times. I was not certain if I totally believed what I was told, so I did some homework when I got back home. When I looked up the dam of Surge, I found that she had a red bull calf born on the same day as Ready Go, and it carried the same tattoo as he had. Was this a coincidence? I think it is highly unlikely. As a side note, Bill Marsden was killed in a car accident shortly after our visit.

So, my educated guess is that Ready Go was a dual purpose bull and his pedigree was probably steeped in some of the great Haumont lines. Does this information change my thoughts on this bull? Not really, other than I do wish that I could have accepted his pedigree as fact. Ready Go was an excellent breeding bull but his real pedigree probably helps explain why his daughters had such flawless udders and milked extremely well. He was a bull that would correct even the poorest udder in one generation. I remember selling Ready Go semen to a breeder who had some cows with about the worst udders I had ever seen. When I saw the Ready Go daughters out of some of these cows, I could not believe my eyes. They had well formed udders with small teat size, just like the other Ready Go daughters I had seen. As I have mentioned before on SP, Ready Go is the only bull I have owned that I am still selling semen from every year, despite it being almost 40 years since I purchased him.

I am certain that there are a percentage of pedigrees that are not correct in every year. Some are incorrect by mistake, and others are done intentionally. I find it interesting that when I was in Scotland, I was told that a well known breeding establishment had refused to provide DNA profiles on some of the bull calves that a group of British breeders were trying to purchase. There may have been good reasons for this, but the Brits certainly felt that this was simply because the calves in question were not what their papers suggested.
Why did Ready Go not carry the Weston prefix? We have some calves from a son of Ready Go and they were the light birth weight and born quickly! Most of our yearling heifers are bred back to him.

Offline justintime

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Re: Some herd sires from the past
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2010, 01:34:35 PM »
Bill Marston told me that he purchased Ready Go when he was about 10 months old and Doc Nold had not registered him yet and he told him that he could name the bull. Bill said that his sister and him, had two Shorthorn steers in 4-H named Ready Go and Roany Go. Since this bull was red, he decided to name him Ready Go. This sounds too weird not to be a true story... lol./
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and bad breath!
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
If love is blind... why is lingerie so popular?
The only thing worse than an idiot ... is an educated idiot!

Offline oakview

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Re: Some herd sires from the past
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2010, 02:02:30 PM »
JIT echoes what I had heard about Shamrock, etc. and others from the Nold herd.  At the time, there was some resistance from beef Shorthorn breeders to accept the dual purpose or Milking Shorthorns.  An obvious solution, for some people, was to use the dual purpose cattle and hang their traditional pedigree on them.  I'm not saying it was right, but it happened in some herds.  It may have been difficult to prove with the technology of the day.  There were at least two instances I know of where cattle were disqualified from the herd book or a show because they were not what the pedigrees said.  In both cases, a lawsuit  resulted in a fairly large settlement in FAVOR of the guilty party.  Perhaps this is why protests were few and far between. 

Offline uluru

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Re: Some herd sires from the past
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2010, 04:17:43 PM »
Grant/Dan
I can find only very few bulls registered as progeny of Cumberland Gay Lad on either the CLRC or ASA records and the only ones that have many progeny of either sex registered are Alta Cedar Roan Lad 80L, D'N Eden White Lad 60B and South Plain Galaxy 13B
Would it be that these bulls that were entered in the U of S test were not registered?
Scot's calves from him look good.

 

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