Some questions about breech calves

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firesweepranch

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Had our third embryo calf today; one I bought from Tim Burke on Breeders World (Harkers Domination x Zeis cow). He was breech, and since I have no experience calving a breech presentation I immediately called the vet. My daughter put an arm in the cow and verified that it was a hock and not a knee (thus making sure breech and not an upside down calf), so we waited for our vet. He did a great job explaining how to pull a breech calf, and I got to use my calf jack for the very first (and hopefully last!) time. A great, calm experience. Anyway, calf is average to big (I will weigh him in the morning when my husband is home to help), I'd say no more than 85 pounds, and took over an hour to try to stand. He buckles on both the back and front pasterns, rolls forward, like a minor contraction. My concern is his back hock flexes forward, like overextends towards his front knee. It is kind of sickening to watch. Will he come out of that, or is there something we need to do to prevent it from getting worse? Is it from pulling him from this back legs? He was pulled at about 5:15 this evening, and was finally able to stand to suck by 9 PM. He is very wobbly with is contracted tendons, and that hock popping forward... just wondering if I should just wait and see or get involved.
 

kfacres

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my experience- you are lucky, if you don't get a backwards one out ASAP- the cord breaks- they inhale> and they get filled with fluid...  they do slide right out- natural triangle-  could be a plus for these clubby oriented cattle-- maybe they should all hope for a backwards pull. 

I would guess it will take him a few days to straighten out and strengthen up. 
 

heilig

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He should  come out of it a shot of multimin or some selenium might help his legs.
 

Simmgal

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How are you other calves out of the same mating looking? I was wanting to breed a few to Domination.

As far as the calf, whenever we have problems after the calf is born, we wait a few days. Some of our pull babies have more issues than naturally delivered ones. We have called the vet and explained our situation before, but we usually end up waiting and everything sorts out. Some things like this don't surprise me after the calf was stuck in a cramped uterus for 9 months. ;D

Good luck! ;D
 

DL

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firesweepranch said:
Had our third embryo calf today; one I bought from Tim Burke on Breeders World (Harkers Domination x Zeis cow). He was breech, and since I have no experience calving a breech presentation I immediately called the vet. My daughter put an arm in the cow and verified that it was a hock and not a knee (thus making sure breech and not an upside down calf), so we waited for our vet. He did a great job explaining how to pull a breech calf, and I got to use my calf jack for the very first (and hopefully last!) time. A great, calm experience. Anyway, calf is average to big (I will weigh him in the morning when my husband is home to help), I'd say no more than 85 pounds, and took over an hour to try to stand. He buckles on both the back and front pasterns, rolls forward, like a minor contraction. My concern is his back hock flexes forward, like overextends towards his front knee. It is kind of sickening to watch. Will he come out of that, or is there something we need to do to prevent it from getting worse? Is it from pulling him from this back legs? He was pulled at about 5:15 this evening, and was finally able to stand to suck by 9 PM. He is very wobbly with is contracted tendons, and that hock popping forward... just wondering if I should just wait and see or get involved.

Did this calf come backwards feet first (this is considered a "normal presentation" and occurs much more commonly that we think) or was it a true breech (butt first no feet) - in which case one has to push the calf back and get the legs up and out - breeches are considered a true emergency; backwards feet first not so much. Glad you got a live calf - sounds like he was pretty scrunched in utero -  Is it possible that when pulling he sustained damage to the back leg? There is a lot of force with a jack. what did your vet say about him?
 
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Firesweepranch-we had same issue last night.  Calf was back feet first but after using the jack, the calf still wouldn't budge.  Vet did a c-section.  Mama is fine today but calf is still fighting tight tendons and back pasterns buckling, plus his back legs are folding sideways.  Last night calf got a shot of BO-SE, and this morning a shot of LA 200 and Banamine.  He is greatly improved!  We're kind of doing "physical therapy" on him, massaging his pasterns and his hips.  From everyone we've talked to, the calf will improve.  I'd say your calf is doing great if he stood already and sucked.  The pressure of the pulling those back feet was tugh on him and going through the birth canal backwards may have pinched some nerves.  Good luck!
 

firesweepranch

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Thanks for all the help thus far. Called our vet this morning and he gave me some bio-mycin to give IV to help with the tendons. We put him and his mom out on our small calving pasture so he can move around some after I gave him the meds. He looked much better after a few hours, but both back hocks still pop forward a little. When he does it, it looks like he is standing on straight posts. It is like they are wobbly. Our vet did not seem to concerned about it. He weighed 84 pounds, so not overly large. After hearing IllinoisFarm Mom had the same issue, I wonder if they come back wards because of contracted tendons???

Did this calf come backwards feet first (this is considered a "normal presentation" and occurs much more commonly that we think) or was it a true breech (butt first no feet) - in which case one has to push the calf back and get the legs up and out - breeches are considered a true emergency; backwards feet first not so much. Glad you got a live calf - sounds like he was pretty scrunched in utero -  Is it possible that when pulling he sustained damage to the back leg? There is a lot of force with a jack. what did your vet say about him?
[/quote]

DL he was just back feet first. When I saw the bag of waters, I just looked in on the cow a few times while doing evening chores. After an hour and her not getting down and getting serious, I went to take a closer look at noticed feet that looked like they were sticking out of her rectum (very high), and got even closer (she is an old show heifer so you can walk up and put a halter on her), and saw the feet were upside down. So I slipped a halter on her and walked her up to the barn for the vet. Our vet told us most calves born like this can not be born on their own, that the cows will need assistance to get a live calf out. He said we caught her early which was good. He checked her for tears, and other than a minor tear on her parentium, she was good and calf looked good, but he left before the calf stood. I have to say, that calf jack was a life saver, but I do not care to use it again!

Simmgal said:
How are you other calves out of the same mating looking? I was wanting to breed a few to Domination.

As far as the calf, whenever we have problems after the calf is born, we wait a few days. Some of our pull babies have more issues than naturally delivered ones. We have called the vet and explained our situation before, but we usually end up waiting and everything sorts out. Some things like this don't surprise me after the calf was stuck in a cramped uterus for 9 months. ;D

Good luck! ;D
Simmgal this is our first calf from Harkers Domination. I have 3 more embryos in the tank, and will put one back in the cow when she is ready. The calf is big, and he has that typical Domination head you see in the ads. Kind of an odd shaped poll and lower jaw. I will try to get a pic tomorrow, but it is supposed to rain (we hope!).
 

DL

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Hey firesweep - glad things seem to be progressing nicely for both the cow and the calf - I agree that if you see feet and there is no progress then intervention is needed - but many cows will have backward cows with  no difficulty. No body knows why they come backwards but the position is set a while before the due date (5 months sticks in my mind but it could be a hallucination :) - a while back an SPer had lots of backwards calves - they finally figured it was sue to the dog chasing the cows up and down the hills

you could splint the legs with lots of thick cotton and vet wrap....

ps a calf jack is a good thing to have but you always hope that since you have it you won't need it - but of course it doesn't always work that way ;)
 

Simmgal

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firesweepranch said:
Simmgal this is our first calf from Harkers Domination. I have 3 more embryos in the tank, and will put one back in the cow when she is ready. The calf is big, and he has that typical Domination head you see in the ads. Kind of an odd shaped poll and lower jaw. I will try to get a pic tomorrow, but it is supposed to rain (we hope!).

Interesting..I would love to see pictures! It's good to know that the calf is doing better and the cow is fine too!
 

firesweepranch

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Here is a pic I took tonight. Hard to see his face or legs, but you can hardly tell he had issues.
 

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Simmgal

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firesweepranch said:
Here is a pic I took tonight. Hard to see his face or legs, but you can hardly tell he had issues.
Good to know he's doing better! Definately keep me posted as to how he grows! I want to breed a cow to him, but I am not sure about the size issue..
 

firesweepranch

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Simmgal said:
firesweepranch said:
Here is a pic I took tonight. Hard to see his face or legs, but you can hardly tell he had issues.
Good to know he's doing better! Definately keep me posted as to how he grows! I want to breed a cow to him, but I am not sure about the size issue..

Have you seen his calving ease lately? YIKES! Kind of scares me. I certainly would not put one of these embryos in a heifer, this was a big boy for this cow. I think I am going to hold out buying semen on him till his accuracy gets better, but I am still going to put the eggs in! Would like to see a heifer from this mating...
 

Freddy

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CALF PULLERS OR SOME ARE JACKS ARE GREAT MACHINES BECAUSE THEY HELP YOU TRY TO GET OUT OF A BAD DECISION WHEN BREEDING ....They are a lot like a gun ,if you use common sense with them they are a great help.  Just don't go pass the limits with them, when using them make sure you lubricate the calf with plenty of soap to help it slide out,also rotate the calf some will usually help ,make sure cow is dialated good or you will do damage to the  cow....I guess after a few years doing it my basic rule is is when you pull on that calf and there is no movement of it, its time to quit ,get her headed to town so the vet who usually has better facilitys and knowledge ....Have also seen just a little ride to town give them more time to dialate better and vet has easy time of pulling them...  I have heard of broken legs and ankles but when this happens you have tried to do things with that puller
that are past where you should of stopped ....AS you get older you try to use breeding program that you won't need to do much pulling....  One old rancher says  that reason you have backward calves is that calf is to big to easly turn around in cow ,have seen people who complain about backward calves that also usually have quite a few big calves ....
 

kamerkat

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freddy you sound like my grandpa .He is always tellin me i need to lube them up before pulling but i don't see the need when they are already covered with the slickest stuff in the world.
 

Freddy

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Kammerkat -I haft to agree with you grandad but if you go to the vet that is suppose to be educated they start soaping as quick as they get one so I was trying to sound intelligent ....I have pulled a lot of them with out soap and also withiut any gloves for your hands when I was younger .......
 

Simmgal

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firesweepranch said:
Simmgal said:
firesweepranch said:
Here is a pic I took tonight. Hard to see his face or legs, but you can hardly tell he had issues.
Good to know he's doing better! Definately keep me posted as to how he grows! I want to breed a cow to him, but I am not sure about the size issue..

Have you seen his calving ease lately? YIKES! Kind of scares me. I certainly would not put one of these embryos in a heifer, this was a big boy for this cow. I think I am going to hold out buying semen on him till his accuracy gets better, but I am still going to put the eggs in! Would like to see a heifer from this mating...
YES..I have checked multiple times over the past year, and it has gotten even worse! That is the only thing keeping me from using him. Before his numbers got super low, I wanted to use him on a second calf cow, but now I don't believe I will..I will never use him on a heifer! I'd rather have a live calf and wait a few years..
 
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