Starting in the Show Cattle Business

I currently help operate a feeder/stocker operation on about 200 acres in Ohio.  We buy feeders in the spring, run on our pasture until late fall, then send to a custom feedlot to finish out.  I have a young son, and another on the way, and would like to get them into showing cattle as they grow.  I have around 30 acres that I would like to put a show cattle barn on and run a small herd of females.  The situation I keep running through my head is to buy 8-10 really good cows, flush them, and use a Recip Herd to calve out and raise the calves until weaning, bringing the calves back to the barn to show/sell.  The questions I need help answering are:

1.  How many times a year can you flush a cow, how often do you breed her to have her own calf.

2.  How much on average does someone charge to use one of their cows as a recip?  I have a few farms who we buy feeder's off of that I would approach about doing this for us, but would like to have an idea before I approach them.

My plan would be to put in maybe 3 of the embryos out of one cow, and then sell the remaining to help pay for those three being placed in the recip.  Giving me around 20-30 calves per year to choose from, the rest being sold or sent to the feedlot.

Thanks for any ideas, insight.

Sounds like a great plan, if you have the Finances.  Our operation for the kids started with the purchase of a Great bred Heifer, and a Real Good 2nd calf Bred Cow.  We usually stayed about 8-10 cows.  I could never afford to get into embryo work, but discovered it wasn't necessary.  Check out our story at........
http://www.clubcalves.com/asklundhistory.htm

i would build up to 8-10 instead of start with 8-10. flushing should run you est. 3-400/cow depending on semen and vet cost. a very well known Angus farm close to me, flush their donors about 8 months out of the year. egg numbers tend go way down in the hotter months. they also have coop herds for recips and pay nearly a grand/ live calf at weaning.

We use a recip herd in north Louisiana and the cost at weaning this year was $850 a calf.

We are also from Ohjo and have a herd of 30 cows. answering your question on how many times to flush a cow in a year. We have 2 quality doner cows that we flush 4-5 times a year that depends on the # of embryo's harvested. As the number of embryo's decline towards the end of her flushing year we breed her back to carry a natural calf. We flush every third cycle. Flushing rates run between $1000.00 to 1300.00 per flush depending on the # of eggs harvested. And your questioned on renting reciepts. I have a guy that I pay $45.00 installion fee to install the egg with a $3.00 blood test fee to detirmine conception on each cow used. Once the cows are confirmed bred I will pick up the weaned calf for $900.00.

@ either $850 or $900 per calf you guys are getting a very, very good deal there. I wouldn't begin to think about doing that if I were providing recips. Those prices aren't even equal to the price that you can get running them through a sale barn not to mention the 60% conception rates that are common for preg. rates in recips. I think that you'll need to add some more costs to your recip prices IMO.

CAB said:

@ either $850 or $900 per calf you guys are getting a very, very good deal there. I wouldn't begin to think about doing that if I were providing recips. Those prices aren't even equal to the price that you can get running them through a sale barn not to mention the 60% conception rates that are common for preg. rates in recips. I think that you'll need to add some more costs to your recip prices IMO.

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I was thinking that, too.  I think the average around here is about $1350.  I know of some  that will be picked up this spring for $1200, but haven't heard of anybody around here charging less than $1350, and some charging $1500 for the ones put in last fall to now. 

Prices for calves like that are not going to get any cheaper if feeder calves do what is anticipated. I've heard talk of $2 calves, so if you're running commercial cows, and somebody wants you to do the extra work and everything that goes into using your cows for recips, it wouldn't make sense not to compensate the co-op herd for that. With $2 calves running through stock barns, you're going to be looking at $1500 and up per calf is my guess.

My question is, "Are you sure you want to jump into flushing under the scenario you're currently in?" My advice would be to start out with the best females you can find and afford and ease your way into raising a few calves. If things go well and the situation allows you to flush one or two of your better females, you'll figure out these details as you go. Not trying to discourage you or put a damper on your plans... Sounds like you're about to dive off into the deep end...I would just make sure I can get back to the side of the pool if I needed to.

I would also spend some time developing a marketing strategy. If you can't get the product marketed then there is no need to start. Seems to me that allot of ideas fail B/C there is nowhere to sell the product & little time & thought put into that end of the project ahead of time. It is a very, very competitive business with more jumping in every year and fewer & fewer families able to afford the prices of inputs to keep doing it.JMO.

CAB said:

I would also spend some time developing a marketing strategy. If you can't get the product marketed then there is no need to start. Seems to me that allot of ideas fail B/C there is nowhere to sell the product & little time & thought put into that end of the project ahead of time. It is a very, very competitive business with more jumping in every year and fewer & fewer families able to afford the prices of inputs to keep doing it.JMO.

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I'll second this lecture...  When you get good calves you need to have the market for them.  Few people will walk into a pasture and drop $5-$15,000+ on a calf without a reputation behind it.  Many calves end up selling at the local club calf auction for modest premiums until you get the repuation for having the great one...  I'd buy the handful and work into it, find out how much you really like it unless you need the tax deductions......

cpubarn said:

CAB said:

I would also spend some time developing a marketing strategy. If you can't get the product marketed then there is no need to start. Seems to me that allot of ideas fail B/C there is nowhere to sell the product & little time & thought put into that end of the project ahead of time. It is a very, very competitive business with more jumping in every year and fewer & fewer families able to afford the prices of inputs to keep doing it.JMO.

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I'll second this lecture...  When you get good calves you need to have the market for them.  Few people will walk into a pasture and drop $5-$15,000+ on a calf without a reputation behind it.  Many calves end up selling at the local club calf auction for modest premiums until you get the repuation for having the great one...  I'd buy the handful and work into it, find out how much you really like it unless you need the tax deductions......

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And once they build a reputation, then they'll start leasing others' cows and buying inferior quality females and holding 50hd bull sales  and stamping all the calves with their reputation built prefix.  And then of course, on their website, it'll be made clear that  they've been producing registered seedstock for 60 years, but when you buy from them or go to the sale, you realize not one of their animals they offer has their prefix more than ONE generation deep. You wonder where the cattle are that this reputation was supposedly built on??  Deceptive indeed. Then when none are to be found,  the public views them as selling counterfeits and their breeder status is taken away and replaced with promoter slash marketer.

Chandler said:

cpubarn said:

CAB said:

I would also spend some time developing a marketing strategy. If you can't get the product marketed then there is no need to start. Seems to me that allot of ideas fail B/C there is nowhere to sell the product & little time & thought put into that end of the project ahead of time. It is a very, very competitive business with more jumping in every year and fewer & fewer families able to afford the prices of inputs to keep doing it.JMO.

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I'll second this lecture...  When you get good calves you need to have the market for them.  Few people will walk into a pasture and drop $5-$15,000+ on a calf without a reputation behind it.  Many calves end up selling at the local club calf auction for modest premiums until you get the repuation for having the great one...  I'd buy the handful and work into it, find out how much you really like it unless you need the tax deductions......

Click to expand...

And once they build a reputation, then they'll start leasing others' cows and buying inferior quality females and holding 50hd bull sales  and stamping all the calves with their reputation built prefix.  And then of course, on their website, it'll be made clear that  they've been producing registered seedstock for 60 years, but when you buy from them or go to the sale, you realize not one of their animals they offer has their prefix more than ONE generation deep. You wonder where the cattle are that this reputation was supposedly built on??  Deceptive indeed. Then when none are to be found,  the public views them as selling counterfeits and their breeder status is taken away and replaced with promoter slash marketer.

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Don't hold back! Tell us what you really think!

I would seperate the following thought processes:

1) Is the intent to provide your kids with the fantastic show experience and all the learning they will get from that?

or

2) Is it a plan to teach them about a breeder operation so they can learn about genetics, marketing, branding and geneomics etc.

or

3) Is it both?

All three of those require a totally different approach.

KCattle1 said:

I currently help operate a feeder/stocker operation on about 200 acres in Ohio.  We buy feeders in the spring, run on our pasture until late fall, then send to a custom feedlot to finish out.  I have a young son, and another on the way, and would like to get them into showing cattle as they grow.  I have around 30 acres that I would like to put a show cattle barn on and run a small herd of females.  The situation I keep running through my head is to buy 8-10 really good cows, flush them, and use a Recip Herd to calve out and raise the calves until weaning, bringing the calves back to the barn to show/sell.  The questions I need help answering are:

1.  How many times a year can you flush a cow, how often do you breed her to have her own calf.

2.  How much on average does someone charge to use one of their cows as a recip?  I have a few farms who we buy feeder's off of that I would approach about doing this for us, but would like to have an idea before I approach them.

My plan would be to put in maybe 3 of the embryos out of one cow, and then sell the remaining to help pay for those three being placed in the recip.  Giving me around 20-30 calves per year to choose from, the rest being sold or sent to the feedlot.

Thanks for any ideas, insight.

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When we got back into after a short abscene, I went to sales and bought older proven cows that were of flush quality. In Ohio I do not know anywhere you can have flushing done with freezing etc, the hormones to set them up and implant less than a $1000. Two good cows should produce plenty of eggs for you to start with. 10 recips would be a place to start, but we have always used a guy that thinks enough of his recips to allow them to be bull bred if an egg does not take. So i think you have to have quality in the recip herd as well. I do not know of anyone who charges less than $850 to 1000 for ET calves especially if they are doing all the work and gurantuee a live calf. This is an agreement you want to have right up front. The recip gets paid to deliver a live weaned calf.

If you have good pasture then 10-15 should be okay to run but if you get much more then you will have to supplement the feeding besides pasture. In Ohio 2 acres of good pasture should work per cow. I would also suggest developing a secondary market for calves that may not make the grade. We feed everything out that does not work or sell as a show calf and feed custom freezer beef. It took a while to get a customer base built up but once you do that helps. Try to ignore some of the more extreme answers as you filter through this thread as you are just asking for honest advice and not wanting to discuss to politics of specific breeds.
In the long run you may want to work on web development for a website and you will have to work on a market for your calves. It is always better to start out small and expand as you grow. We have enjoyed being small and selling local. Our operation works for us. It takes a collaberation for it to work. Put some time in to developing your facilities. YOu need a good place to work cows and calves to. Squeeze cute etc. Calving pens are nice and a wash rack inside is also nice for show calves. Our wash rack in the winter can double as a heated room for the heifers or first timers or any cows that have trouble. If you ET everything factor in the cost of a bull to cover cows. YOu definitely want a qulaity bull as clean up as well.

Goodluck with your development. the post just above me is exactly right focus on what you want to do and or provide.

This is a great topic for discussion. For me to get started in the seed stock business not calf club I used my commercial herd as receipt's and bought the best cows I could afford from genuine dispersals. That way you can pick the best cows from a herd by studying their progeny. There are many good cows in a dispersal that may not of been shown or the best looking cow in the herd but have the ability to throw a great calf almost every time. I also bought embryos from some of the better studs in the country that shared my goals on phenotype and performance. The closest co op herd I could find was three states away and charged $1200 at weaning. In my area I could not find a herd that would co op b/c the weaner calf market has been so good. Also making sure the co op herd is Pesti virus and Johnes free was a hassle. Both are very important to the seed sock job here. I don't know to many operation over there but Cattle Nut from Blair Ag is a good example of starting in the seed stock industry and his ability to market. As CAB said market research needs to be done for your location to know it will work in your area.

cattle nut said:

I would seperate the following thought processes:

1) Is the intent to provide your kids with the fantastic show experience and all the learning they will get from that?

or

2) Is it a plan to teach them about a breeder operation so they can learn about genetics, marketing, branding and geneomics etc.

or

3) Is it both?

All three of those require a totally different approach.

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The process should be #2. And then if you raise one good enough, #1. 

cattle nut said:

I would seperate the following thought processes:

1) Is the intent to provide your kids with the fantastic show experience and all the learning they will get from that?

or

2) Is it a plan to teach them about a breeder operation so they can learn about genetics, marketing, branding and geneomics etc.

or

3) Is it both?

All three of those require a totally different approach.

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cattle nut I think you have nailed it .??

Here is something more to add to the equation:
If you have children young enough to 'show" then are you really sellling the best offspring? Often times folks shy from programs that have  kid in the "age of  4-H or junior programs... or" rent a kid  programs." I would go for option 2.... nicely put cattle nut

http://www.jauerangus.com/cow-videos.htm


This is a good place to start. Some cow power in this group.

Thanks for the response and answers.  I guess a little more detail of my current situation would answer some of those.  I have a couple commercial farms of 200-300 head that we purchase feeders from throughout the year, these would be the people I would approach about using their cattle as recips.  I can trust them and we already have a relationship, they also have good facilities to work cattle, as do we in our current barn.  I also have a market for any cattle that would not be show quality, as we feed out 500 head or so a year, so they would just be put into our feedlot.  I understand the importance of marketing a finished product as well, I see this as the biggest challenge in getting started, if in fact my goal is to market show animals/seedstock.  I will have to put the pencil to the paper in this regard and give it some more thought.

Not trying to change the subject but this is the most I've seen posted about people using recip co-ops/operations to calve out ET calves.  I am in Maryland and have been searching for such an operation somewhat close to me for a few years.  We have done some flushing and bought a few eggs and now I have more eggs than I have recips or land to run more recips.  So I am looking for a recip operation that I can work with to implant some eggs and get the calves at weaning.  If anyone knows of any such operations in MD or in close proximity to MD please PM the information.

Back to the subject of this thread, I have to agree with several of the response on here especially the post about showing competitively and trying to market show calves.  A lot easier said than done not many people will pay good money for your calves when they know you have one that will likely beat the ones you are selling. Most small operations don't get this plan to work until their kids age out as a junior or decide to show only heifers or steers and sell the other.  Good Luck!!