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Offline Kansas Karl

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terms
« on: February 06, 2008, 10:18:59 PM »
OK I have heard these over and over and over agian.  What do you mean you say the cow is moderatly framed?? What about when you say he should moderate their frame?? And when you say is is really thick, or will add thickness what does that mean? AND what is a cow's front 1/3??

and what do you think about Get serious?? the shorty?? thanks a lot  (:))
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Offline showsteernc

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Re: terms
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2008, 06:18:26 AM »
Ok moderate framed is just like it sounds. Shes not a short cow-frame 5 or below and shes not a monster-frame7.5 is the best way I can explain it. Thickness means that she has alot of muscle and she should pass it to her calves. Front 1/3 rd is from the shoulders forward and includes the shoulders, brisket neckline and head which should all be feminine.

Offline SRU

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Re: terms
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2008, 07:33:43 AM »
Ok moderate framed is just like it sounds. Shes not a short cow-frame 5 or below and shes not a monster-frame7.5 is the best way I can explain it. Thickness means that she has alot of muscle and she should pass it to her calves. Front 1/3 rd is from the shoulders forward and includes the shoulders, brisket neckline and head which should all be feminine.

i know that curiosity killed the cat but i need to satisfy mine.  do you know how tall  a 5 & 7.5 frame cow are at maturity?  FWIW  a 7.5 isn't twice the size of a 3.75.

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Offline Longway Ranch - SK, Canada

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Re: terms
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2008, 09:26:05 AM »
Frame score 5 is a hip hight of about 50in.  Frame 7.5 is about 54.3in.  I believe frame scores go up in 2inch increments. 
Also, if a bull (or heifer) has a 6.5 frame as a yearling, they can still mature to a 5 frame.  Yearling frame and mature frame are different.
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Offline knabe

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Re: terms
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2008, 09:42:48 AM »
moderate is roughly the mid point of a distribution and is relative.

Offline TJ

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Re: terms
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2008, 11:55:12 AM »
I want to point out a few things to help avoid misconceptions...

The USDA considers low 3 frame to low 5 frame steers to be "medium" frame.  Everything below a low 3 frame is considered small frame.  Low frame 5's to low frame 7's is considered large frame.  And according to a Beef specialist at Texas A&M, anything above a low 7 should be considered VERY large.   

A frame score 5 cow is 50 inches at 21 months, but it will be taller at maturity.  A 50 inch cow, at maturity, is actually a frame 4 cow!  Mating frame 4-5 cows with frame 6 bulls will produce the USDA Large Frame #1 steers that bring top $ at the market while reducing cow herd input costs. 


Everyone will have different opinions, but here are mine...

IMHO, a moderate frame cow is this... Frame 4.5 - 6.  That means 51 - 54 inches tall at maturity. With the right genetics, those 51 inch tall cows can easily weigh 1250+ lbs. or more! 

IMHO, a small framed cow is this... Frame 3 - 4.  That means 48 - 50 inches tall at maturity.  I've seen some really beefy, 48 inch tall cows weigh over 1300 lbs.  with the right genetics.   

IMHO, a large framed cow is this... Frame 6.5 - 7.5.  That means 55-57 inches tall at maturity.  They are OK, if you have a show herd or if you are producing terminal sires or if you can stand a big tax write off!       

IMHO, any mature cow that is below a 3 frame (48 inches) is an extreme on the short side & anything over 7.5 frame (57 inches) is extreme on the large side.   
     
Again, just my opinion.

 
« Last Edit: February 07, 2008, 12:04:35 PM by TJ »
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Offline TJ

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Re: terms
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2008, 12:22:00 PM »
I got to looking around for the "ideal" hip height of a show steer.  Well suprise, suprise!!  According to this article by Texas A&M cooperative extention, the ideal (they actually used the words "most popular") show steer frame score is...    frame 4 - 6.    ;) 

Here is the link if anyone wants to take a look...
http://animalscience.tamu.edu/main/youth/AS12_managingbeefcattleshow.pdf
 
« Last Edit: February 07, 2008, 12:25:17 PM by TJ »
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Romans 10:9-10... "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Offline red

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Re: terms
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2008, 01:56:10 PM »
TJ- since you breed LowLines, is there a different scale for them versus other cattle?

Red
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Offline renegade

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Re: terms
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2008, 05:29:44 PM »
what does green mean?

Offline TJ

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Re: terms
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2008, 05:33:56 PM »
TJ- since you breed LowLines, is there a different scale for them versus other cattle?

Red

All frame scores are all calculated the same way & are done on the same scale.  Rather than using negative numbers, when the frame score gets down to 0 it goes to 00 for one size smaller 000 for the next size down, etc..  It's similar to XL, XXL, 3XL in clothes.  

Most fullblood Lowlines would fall into the frame 00 to frame 1 range.  I like for my fullbloods to be frame 0 or 1 & I actually have a fullblood cow that weighed 925 lbs. this fall.  However, most Lowline breeders don't ever talk about frame scores.  Also, most Lowline breeders tend to stick more towards the middle to the bigger end of the breed.  FWIW, most "mini cattle breeders" do not consider Lowlines to be true "minis".  Mini or not, fullblood Lowlines are still very small cattle.  

However, the Mini Hereford breed is just the opposite.  They devote a lot of time to talking about frame scores & in that breed many think that smaller is better.  Most Mini Hereford breeders like 000 frame & smaller Mini Herefords!!   The difference between most Lowlines & most Mini Herefords is about the same difference between a frame 4 cow & a frame 7 cow. The Lowlines are substantially bigger on the avg.  

While most fullblood Lowlines frame score in 00 -1 range, the halfblood Lowlines will mostly frame score in the 4 frame range & some will even frame score in the 5's.  I sold a frame 0 bull who consistently sired frame 4.5 calves out of frame 6 females.  The thing is, they weigh almost as much as the frame 5 & 6, full sized calves, that have received the exact same management.

Unless you are wanting to raise your own beef, cater to the grass fed market, have small acrage & want a few cows, etc., fullblood Lowlines aren't going to work for most people.  However, a fullblood bull on a full sized heifer, is a match made in heaven!!  And the calves are big enough to sell & make pretty good money, even in a traditional market system.   1/2 blood Lowlines will work for the commercial producer.  And if they want the calves to be a little bigger, they can use 1/2 & 3/4 Lowline bulls & get similar results (extreme calving ease) & slightly heavier weaning weights & frame sizes.   
« Last Edit: February 07, 2008, 05:50:39 PM by TJ »
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Romans 10:9-10... "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Offline showsteernc

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Re: terms
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2008, 05:34:57 PM »
It means the calf is lacking condition. usually applys to younger calves that have just been weaned or calves that have not been on feed long. Also could be used to say a lack of finish.

Offline TJ

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Re: terms
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2008, 05:39:05 PM »
what does green mean?

In a nutshell, it means something that has a while to go before it reaches it's potential.  Most people call a calf "green" when it is lacking a bit in terms of condition. 
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Romans 10:9-10... "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Offline TJ

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Re: terms
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2008, 05:40:24 PM »
It means the calf is lacking condition. usually applys to younger calves that have just been weaned or calves that have not been on feed long. Also could be used to say a lack of finish.

Yes, that's the common usage.   Your post wasn't up when I started typing & I breifly got distracted talking to my dad.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2008, 05:42:03 PM by TJ »
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Romans 10:9-10... "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Offline garybob

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Re: terms
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2008, 07:14:34 PM »
I've got one for Y'uns.: BREED CHARACTER. We used it in the Eighties in High School, and in College (No, We didn't win the Spoor Trophy), before the "Darkening" of the Continental Breeds.

Could this term/point of evaluation be used today? How so? Why not?

GB

Offline Olson Family Shorthorns

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Re: terms
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2008, 07:19:03 PM »
No, breed character can't really be used now a days at shows.  This is because all the breeds look the same.  How many breeds aren't black now? 2?  Herefords and Shorthorns..thats about it.  There isn't any focus on developing a breed to keep with traditional standards.  Now breeds are all going in the same general direction with phenotype.  I think that there is still alot of quality in cattle today, but there isn't nearly as much diversity between the breeds as there used to be. 
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