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Offline -XBAR-

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Texas State Shorthorn sale
« on: April 16, 2012, 03:40:40 PM »
Got 2 new heifers Saturday at the Texas State Shorthorn Sale in Eastland, TX.  Half sisters AHL RUBY 135 *x4184308 and AHL ALBERTA 123 *sx4184309.  They are pretty different pedigree wise than anything else I have although I think they are still the right "type." Moderate framed (at best) and super gentle. I thought they were the best 2 heifers in the sale so what better place for them to go than my pasture <beer>    They are 13 and 14 months old.  Strengths/Weaknesses of these pedigrees?- I will post pics this afternoon.


  *x3983131 SS SUPER SPORT
   *x4012661 SS NAVIGATOR
    3912522 HA JULIE EG 408 BI
Sire: *x4097892 AHL STONY 440
    3943777 AHL WHITE PRIDE 303
   *4097890 AHL WP LILLY 857
    *3969717 AHL KP LILLY 5123
 
    3715737 IRISH PRIDE
   3969344 AHL CLASSY PRIDE 403
    3856108 AHL EXPLO PRIDE STARII730
Dam: *x4184307 AHL CP RUBY 4116
    *sx3959520 JF MAXIMUM IMPACT
   *x4023599 AHL MI RUBY 9170
    3944153 AHL IH RUBY 464


   *x3983131 SS SUPER SPORT
   *x4012661 SS NAVIGATOR
    3912522 HA JULIE EG 408 BI
Sire: *x4097892 AHL STONY 440
    3943777 AHL WHITE PRIDE 303
   *4097890 AHL WP LILLY 857
    *3969717 AHL KP LILLY 5123
 
    *x4059353 AHL PAINT 9127
   *x4129093 AHL P LITTLE PAINT 452
    *4129092 AHL ES DEB'S LADY 8100
Dam: *4138850 AHL LP ALBERTA 665
    *x4059353 AHL PAINT 9127
   *4138849 AHL P ALBERTA 4118
    *3985903 AHL KP ALBERTA 661

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Offline oakview

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2012, 03:46:57 PM »
I would be very careful with any animal with Irish Pride, i.e. Deerpark Improver, in it.  My advice would be to watch your matings closely.  Just my opinion.

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2012, 04:23:08 PM »
I would be very careful with any animal with Irish Pride, i.e. Deerpark Improver, in it.  My advice would be to watch your matings closely.  Just my opinion.

Please elaborate- 
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Offline PDJ

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2012, 05:53:14 PM »
I would be very careful with any animal with Irish Pride, i.e. Deerpark Improver, in it.  My advice would be to watch your matings closely.  Just my opinion.

Please elaborate- 
Deerpark Improver (sire of Irish Pride) is thought to be the original TH carrier in the shorthorn breed.  I think oakview was saying that your heifers should be TH tested, and sires selected accordingly.

Offline oakview

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2012, 11:47:50 PM »
Irish Pride is actually recorded as a double grandson of Deerpark Improver, although I have heard some debate as to whether Irish Pride's sire, Deerpark Improver 3rd, is actually sired by old Improver.  In addition to TH, I also have some concerns about the foot/hoof deformities.  Until it is determined just where this deformity comes from, I would just be careful if the heifers were mine.  The heifers just might be great producers for you, I don't know.  I'm just saying that I would use caution with mating decisions if they were on my farm.

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 11:43:20 AM »
I am going to have the heifers tested- They are exceptional looking- deep broad females- I realize by pedigree they should be real clubby but thats not what I see here. They are feminine, smooth made and have smaller heads than even my heifers from Lovings.  I really like the roan color they have- almost a purple roan.  If they come back positive as carriers Ill drop there ass off on AHL's door and collect my $$.  Not that I would ever use a carrier bull, but as long as you have breeders selling animals w/o disclosing their status, you never know what you're gonna get.  They really have a diverse pedigree, the Improver and Leader lines, some Maine breeding, and a good back of Canadian breeding if you go back far enough.  I even remember seeing Kenmar and Helianthus breeding far back.
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Offline twistedhshowstock

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2012, 02:53:16 PM »
I am going to have the heifers tested- They are exceptional looking- deep broad females- I realize by pedigree they should be real clubby but thats not what I see here. They are feminine, smooth made and have smaller heads than even my heifers from Lovings.  I really like the roan color they have- almost a purple roan.  If they come back positive as carriers Ill drop there ass off on AHL's door and collect my $$.  Not that I would ever use a carrier bull, but as long as you have breeders selling animals w/o disclosing their status, you never know what you're gonna get.  They really have a diverse pedigree, the Improver and Leader lines, some Maine breeding, and a good back of Canadian breeding if you go back far enough.  I even remember seeing Kenmar and Helianthus breeding far back.

Did they sell them as free of any genetic defects? If not you probably wont get any money back from them if they are carriers, if by pedigree there is a chance that they are carriers, and the heifers have not been tested, then you took on the risk when you decided to buy them.  Thats the way most sales work unless there is some type of guarantee.  We considered goin to this sale so I looked over the catalog fairly close and I didnt see any type of guarantee like that on any lots.  Not trying to be jerk, just letting you know, these heifers are most likely yours now. 

Offline oakview

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 02:54:35 PM »
I am certainly not in any way advocating returning the heifers to their previous owner.  I would just suggest that, even if the heifers are TH free, which they very well may be, I would still be careful with mating decisions because of the foot/ankle defect that is lurking about.  As far as I know, there is no test for this and work continues.  However, the defective calves I am personally aware of all have Improver on both sides of the pedigree.  I don't know if Improver is the source or not and will not know until something is proven.  However, after living through the TH thing 10 years ago, I am just a little gun shy and am personally avoiding double Improver, TH free or not.  There are plenty of good bulls out there that do not have Improver in them that could work on these heifers with great results.

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 03:21:46 PM »
I am going to have the heifers tested- They are exceptional looking- deep broad females- I realize by pedigree they should be real clubby but thats not what I see here. They are feminine, smooth made and have smaller heads than even my heifers from Lovings.  I really like the roan color they have- almost a purple roan.  If they come back positive as carriers Ill drop there ass off on AHL's door and collect my $$.  Not that I would ever use a carrier bull, but as long as you have breeders selling animals w/o disclosing their status, you never know what you're gonna get.  They really have a diverse pedigree, the Improver and Leader lines, some Maine breeding, and a good back of Canadian breeding if you go back far enough.  I even remember seeing Kenmar and Helianthus breeding far back.

Did they sell them as free of any genetic defects? If not you probably wont get any money back from them if they are carriers, if by pedigree there is a chance that they are carriers, and the heifers have not been tested, then you took on the risk when you decided to buy them.  Thats the way most sales work unless there is some type of guarantee.  We considered goin to this sale so I looked over the catalog fairly close and I didnt see any type of guarantee like that on any lots.  Not trying to be jerk, just letting you know, these heifers are most likely yours now. 
Lets just say I'm fairly persuasive.
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Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 03:33:06 PM »
I am certainly not in any way advocating returning the heifers to their previous owner.  I would just suggest that, even if the heifers are TH free, which they very well may be, I would still be careful with mating decisions because of the foot/ankle defect that is lurking about.  As far as I know, there is no test for this and work continues.  However, the defective calves I am personally aware of all have Improver on both sides of the pedigree.  I don't know if Improver is the source or not and will not know until something is proven.  However, after living through the TH thing 10 years ago, I am just a little gun shy and am personally avoiding double Improver, TH free or not.  There are plenty of good bulls out there that do not have Improver in them that could work on these heifers with great results.

Improver is over 5 generations back on these heifers.  I guess my question is, if Improver is indeed the culprit, then how/why would the defect go 5 generations without being expressed? Or is that what happens? If the heifers do type negative for both th and pha, doesn't that mean that their line is "clean" from here on out?
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Offline Doc

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 05:08:48 PM »
I am certainly not in any way advocating returning the heifers to their previous owner.  I would just suggest that, even if the heifers are TH free, which they very well may be, I would still be careful with mating decisions because of the foot/ankle defect that is lurking about.  As far as I know, there is no test for this and work continues.  However, the defective calves I am personally aware of all have Improver on both sides of the pedigree.  I don't know if Improver is the source or not and will not know until something is proven.  However, after living through the TH thing 10 years ago, I am just a little gun shy and am personally avoiding double Improver, TH free or not.  There are plenty of good bulls out there that do not have Improver in them that could work on these heifers with great results.

Improver is over 5 generations back on these heifers.  I guess my question is, if Improver is indeed the culprit, then how/why would the defect go 5 generations without being expressed? Or is that what happens? If the heifers do type negative for both th and pha, doesn't that mean that their line is "clean" from here on out?

Yes , if they test clean then them and their progeny are good. In fact if both parents are tested free & say you went to flush one of them, all you would have to do is a dna parentage check & they would be declared free by parentage. I just did this on one of my donors.
 As far as taking them back if they test positive, I'd say good luck with that. Unless he sold them as guaranteed as free, then their is nothing that says he has to. Now wether he wants to keep a person as a happy customer is a different story. Right or wrong the majority of the sales out there, especially consignment sales will have cattle in them that should have been tested because of their pedigree , but are not.
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enough to take everything you have.   -- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Redwine Cattle

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2012, 05:34:47 PM »
I'm anxious to see the pictures!! I hope they work out well for you!
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity"       ~Seneca

Offline twistedhshowstock

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2012, 05:48:18 PM »
I am going to have the heifers tested- They are exceptional looking- deep broad females- I realize by pedigree they should be real clubby but thats not what I see here. They are feminine, smooth made and have smaller heads than even my heifers from Lovings.  I really like the roan color they have- almost a purple roan.  If they come back positive as carriers Ill drop there ass off on AHL's door and collect my $$.  Not that I would ever use a carrier bull, but as long as you have breeders selling animals w/o disclosing their status, you never know what you're gonna get.  They really have a diverse pedigree, the Improver and Leader lines, some Maine breeding, and a good back of Canadian breeding if you go back far enough.  I even remember seeing Kenmar and Helianthus breeding far back.

Did they sell them as free of any genetic defects? If not you probably wont get any money back from them if they are carriers, if by pedigree there is a chance that they are carriers, and the heifers have not been tested, then you took on the risk when you decided to buy them.  Thats the way most sales work unless there is some type of guarantee.  We considered goin to this sale so I looked over the catalog fairly close and I didnt see any type of guarantee like that on any lots.  Not trying to be jerk, just letting you know, these heifers are most likely yours now. 
Lets just say I'm fairly persuasive.


Cool...good luck with that...personally if you bought the heifers from me knowing that there was possibility of them carrying a defect.  Then you had them tested and they did in fact carry it, and you tried to get your money back I most likely wouldnt do it, unless the heifers were just something I really wanted back in my herd.  Otherwise I view it as you assumed the risk by buying them knowing that there was  potential, so now it is in your hands.

Offline twistedhshowstock

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2012, 05:52:00 PM »
I am certainly not in any way advocating returning the heifers to their previous owner.  I would just suggest that, even if the heifers are TH free, which they very well may be, I would still be careful with mating decisions because of the foot/ankle defect that is lurking about.  As far as I know, there is no test for this and work continues.  However, the defective calves I am personally aware of all have Improver on both sides of the pedigree.  I don't know if Improver is the source or not and will not know until something is proven.  However, after living through the TH thing 10 years ago, I am just a little gun shy and am personally avoiding double Improver, TH free or not.  There are plenty of good bulls out there that do not have Improver in them that could work on these heifers with great results.

Improver is over 5 generations back on these heifers.  I guess my question is, if Improver is indeed the culprit, then how/why would the defect go 5 generations without being expressed? Or is that what happens? If the heifers do type negative for both th and pha, doesn't that mean that their line is "clean" from here on out?

All of these traits are recessive, so they would have to be homozyous for them in order for the traits  to express themselves.  Reardless of how many generations back the carrier is, it is possible for the ene to have been present in every generation just not homozyously, therefor it would not have presented itself.  What they are sayin  by telling you to be careful breeding back to those bloodlines, is that we are pretty sure that bull at the very least carries the gene, if he wasnt in fact the one that introduced it.  So if these heifers are carriers and you breed back to him, you increase the risk of havin a homozygous calf that would then express the gene.

Offline JTM

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2012, 06:11:02 PM »
XBAR, you will need to test them for PHA also because I see Stinger down in the dam side of the second heifer. Didn't look far enough on the first one but there could be a possibility of PHA on the second one also.
Functional, real world Shorthorns are the answer for hybrid vigor on Angus cattle. Increase marbling and maternal traits while creating superior cows and adding more pounds to your calves at weaning.

 

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