Texas State Shorthorn sale

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RyanChandler

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Got 2 new heifers Saturday at the Texas State Shorthorn Sale in Eastland, TX.  Half sisters AHL RUBY 135 *x4184308 and AHL ALBERTA 123 *sx4184309.  They are pretty different pedigree wise than anything else I have although I think they are still the right "type." Moderate framed (at best) and super gentle. I thought they were the best 2 heifers in the sale so what better place for them to go than my pasture <beer>    They are 13 and 14 months old.  Strengths/Weaknesses of these pedigrees?- I will post pics this afternoon.


  *x3983131 SS SUPER SPORT
  *x4012661 SS NAVIGATOR
    3912522 HA JULIE EG 408 BI
Sire: *x4097892 AHL STONY 440
    3943777 AHL WHITE PRIDE 303
  *4097890 AHL WP LILLY 857
    *3969717 AHL KP LILLY 5123

    3715737 IRISH PRIDE
  3969344 AHL CLASSY PRIDE 403
    3856108 AHL EXPLO PRIDE STARII730
Dam: *x4184307 AHL CP RUBY 4116
    *sx3959520 JF MAXIMUM IMPACT
  *x4023599 AHL MI RUBY 9170
    3944153 AHL IH RUBY 464


  *x3983131 SS SUPER SPORT
  *x4012661 SS NAVIGATOR
    3912522 HA JULIE EG 408 BI
Sire: *x4097892 AHL STONY 440
    3943777 AHL WHITE PRIDE 303
  *4097890 AHL WP LILLY 857
    *3969717 AHL KP LILLY 5123

    *x4059353 AHL PAINT 9127
  *x4129093 AHL P LITTLE PAINT 452
    *4129092 AHL ES DEB'S LADY 8100
Dam: *4138850 AHL LP ALBERTA 665
    *x4059353 AHL PAINT 9127
  *4138849 AHL P ALBERTA 4118
    *3985903 AHL KP ALBERTA 661

 

oakview

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I would be very careful with any animal with Irish Pride, i.e. Deerpark Improver, in it.  My advice would be to watch your matings closely.  Just my opinion.
 

PDJ

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-XBAR- said:
oakview said:
I would be very careful with any animal with Irish Pride, i.e. Deerpark Improver, in it.  My advice would be to watch your matings closely.  Just my opinion.

Please elaborate- 
Deerpark Improver (sire of Irish Pride) is thought to be the original TH carrier in the shorthorn breed.  I think oakview was saying that your heifers should be TH tested, and sires selected accordingly.
 

oakview

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Irish Pride is actually recorded as a double grandson of Deerpark Improver, although I have heard some debate as to whether Irish Pride's sire, Deerpark Improver 3rd, is actually sired by old Improver.  In addition to TH, I also have some concerns about the foot/hoof deformities.  Until it is determined just where this deformity comes from, I would just be careful if the heifers were mine.  The heifers just might be great producers for you, I don't know.  I'm just saying that I would use caution with mating decisions if they were on my farm.
 

twistedhshowstock

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-XBAR- said:
I am going to have the heifers tested- They are exceptional looking- deep broad females- I realize by pedigree they should be real clubby but thats not what I see here. They are feminine, smooth made and have smaller heads than even my heifers from Lovings.  I really like the roan color they have- almost a purple roan.  If they come back positive as carriers Ill drop there ass off on AHL's door and collect my $$.  Not that I would ever use a carrier bull, but as long as you have breeders selling animals w/o disclosing their status, you never know what you're gonna get.  They really have a diverse pedigree, the Improver and Leader lines, some Maine breeding, and a good back of Canadian breeding if you go back far enough.  I even remember seeing Kenmar and Helianthus breeding far back.

Did they sell them as free of any genetic defects? If not you probably wont get any money back from them if they are carriers, if by pedigree there is a chance that they are carriers, and the heifers have not been tested, then you took on the risk when you decided to buy them.  Thats the way most sales work unless there is some type of guarantee.  We considered goin to this sale so I looked over the catalog fairly close and I didnt see any type of guarantee like that on any lots.  Not trying to be jerk, just letting you know, these heifers are most likely yours now. 
 

oakview

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I am certainly not in any way advocating returning the heifers to their previous owner.  I would just suggest that, even if the heifers are TH free, which they very well may be, I would still be careful with mating decisions because of the foot/ankle defect that is lurking about.  As far as I know, there is no test for this and work continues.  However, the defective calves I am personally aware of all have Improver on both sides of the pedigree.  I don't know if Improver is the source or not and will not know until something is proven.  However, after living through the TH thing 10 years ago, I am just a little gun shy and am personally avoiding double Improver, TH free or not.  There are plenty of good bulls out there that do not have Improver in them that could work on these heifers with great results.
 

Doc

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-XBAR- said:
oakview said:
I am certainly not in any way advocating returning the heifers to their previous owner.  I would just suggest that, even if the heifers are TH free, which they very well may be, I would still be careful with mating decisions because of the foot/ankle defect that is lurking about.  As far as I know, there is no test for this and work continues.  However, the defective calves I am personally aware of all have Improver on both sides of the pedigree.  I don't know if Improver is the source or not and will not know until something is proven.  However, after living through the TH thing 10 years ago, I am just a little gun shy and am personally avoiding double Improver, TH free or not.  There are plenty of good bulls out there that do not have Improver in them that could work on these heifers with great results.

Improver is over 5 generations back on these heifers.  I guess my question is, if Improver is indeed the culprit, then how/why would the defect go 5 generations without being expressed? Or is that what happens? If the heifers do type negative for both th and pha, doesn't that mean that their line is "clean" from here on out?

Yes , if they test clean then them and their progeny are good. In fact if both parents are tested free & say you went to flush one of them, all you would have to do is a dna parentage check & they would be declared free by parentage. I just did this on one of my donors.
As far as taking them back if they test positive, I'd say good luck with that. Unless he sold them as guaranteed as free, then their is nothing that says he has to. Now wether he wants to keep a person as a happy customer is a different story. Right or wrong the majority of the sales out there, especially consignment sales will have cattle in them that should have been tested because of their pedigree , but are not.
 

twistedhshowstock

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-XBAR- said:
twistedhshowstock said:
-XBAR- said:
I am going to have the heifers tested- They are exceptional looking- deep broad females- I realize by pedigree they should be real clubby but thats not what I see here. They are feminine, smooth made and have smaller heads than even my heifers from Lovings.  I really like the roan color they have- almost a purple roan.  If they come back positive as carriers Ill drop there ass off on AHL's door and collect my $$.  Not that I would ever use a carrier bull, but as long as you have breeders selling animals w/o disclosing their status, you never know what you're gonna get.  They really have a diverse pedigree, the Improver and Leader lines, some Maine breeding, and a good back of Canadian breeding if you go back far enough.  I even remember seeing Kenmar and Helianthus breeding far back.

Did they sell them as free of any genetic defects? If not you probably wont get any money back from them if they are carriers, if by pedigree there is a chance that they are carriers, and the heifers have not been tested, then you took on the risk when you decided to buy them.  Thats the way most sales work unless there is some type of guarantee.  We considered goin to this sale so I looked over the catalog fairly close and I didnt see any type of guarantee like that on any lots.  Not trying to be jerk, just letting you know, these heifers are most likely yours now. 
Lets just say I'm fairly persuasive.


Cool...good luck with that...personally if you bought the heifers from me knowing that there was possibility of them carrying a defect.  Then you had them tested and they did in fact carry it, and you tried to get your money back I most likely wouldnt do it, unless the heifers were just something I really wanted back in my herd.  Otherwise I view it as you assumed the risk by buying them knowing that there was  potential, so now it is in your hands.
 

twistedhshowstock

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-XBAR- said:
oakview said:
I am certainly not in any way advocating returning the heifers to their previous owner.  I would just suggest that, even if the heifers are TH free, which they very well may be, I would still be careful with mating decisions because of the foot/ankle defect that is lurking about.  As far as I know, there is no test for this and work continues.  However, the defective calves I am personally aware of all have Improver on both sides of the pedigree.  I don't know if Improver is the source or not and will not know until something is proven.  However, after living through the TH thing 10 years ago, I am just a little gun shy and am personally avoiding double Improver, TH free or not.  There are plenty of good bulls out there that do not have Improver in them that could work on these heifers with great results.

Improver is over 5 generations back on these heifers.  I guess my question is, if Improver is indeed the culprit, then how/why would the defect go 5 generations without being expressed? Or is that what happens? If the heifers do type negative for both th and pha, doesn't that mean that their line is "clean" from here on out?

All of these traits are recessive, so they would have to be homozyous for them in order for the traits  to express themselves.  Reardless of how many generations back the carrier is, it is possible for the ene to have been present in every generation just not homozyously, therefor it would not have presented itself.  What they are sayin  by telling you to be careful breeding back to those bloodlines, is that we are pretty sure that bull at the very least carries the gene, if he wasnt in fact the one that introduced it.  So if these heifers are carriers and you breed back to him, you increase the risk of havin a homozygous calf that would then express the gene.
 
J

JTM

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XBAR, you will need to test them for PHA also because I see Stinger down in the dam side of the second heifer. Didn't look far enough on the first one but there could be a possibility of PHA on the second one also.
 
K

kciD

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oakview said:
Irish Pride is actually recorded as a double grandson of Deerpark Improver, although I have heard some debate as to whether Irish Pride's sire, Deerpark Improver 3rd, is actually sired by old Improver.  In addition to TH, I also have some concerns about the foot/hoof deformities.  Until it is determined just where this deformity comes from, I would just be careful if the heifers were mine.  The heifers just might be great producers for you, I don't know.  I'm just saying that I would use caution with mating decisions if they were on my farm.

Anyone who even remotely belives a pedigree of an Irish animal- needs to study history.

Does anyone seriously think that after exporting the Improver bull-- the Irish would import his semen to reuse-- thus all the imported 'sons' who came over?  Doubt it.

Next-  better look up "Leggs" birthdate- 4-14-74.  Then check out his daddy- Dividend's birthdate- 3-9-73...  That was one super fertile 3 month old bull calf... 

I don't think so folks...
 

OLD WORLD SHORTIE

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justintime

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kciD said:
oakview said:
Irish Pride is actually recorded as a double grandson of Deerpark Improver, although I have heard some debate as to whether Irish Pride's sire, Deerpark Improver 3rd, is actually sired by old Improver.  In addition to TH, I also have some concerns about the foot/hoof deformities.  Until it is determined just where this deformity comes from, I would just be careful if the heifers were mine.  The heifers just might be great producers for you, I don't know.  I'm just saying that I would use caution with mating decisions if they were on my farm.

Anyone who even remotely belives a pedigree of an Irish animal- needs to study history.

Does anyone seriously think that after exporting the Improver bull-- the Irish would import his semen to reuse-- thus all the imported 'sons' who came over?  Doubt it.

Next-  better look up "Leggs" birthdate- 4-14-74.  Then check out his daddy- Dividend's birthdate- 3-9-73...  That was one super fertile 3 month old bull calf...  

I don't think so folks...

While I agree with you in your remarks about the pedigrees of some Irish cattle, i think there is an error in the birthdate of Leggs. I first saw Dividend in March 1977, and he had just turned 4 years old. He was at KABSU being collected and he was probably the best Shorthorn bull I had ever seen to that time. I'm thinking that Leggs was born in 1977 or possibly 1978. I cannot remember what year his dam sold in the Irish sale at Platte City, MO. The Irish government shipped an entire plane full of cattle to be auctioned in this sale. I attended this sale and purchased 5 cows, with two of my partners at that time. We were the runner up bidder on the Tulip female who was carrying Leggs and she was due to calve shortly to Dividend. I remember Leggs was born shortly after this sale. The sale was held in late March of that year. The 5 cows we purchased all calved within a couple weeks of the sale, and I remember that we had to not only export test the cows but also the newborn calves as well. There is no doubt in my mind that Leggs was a Dividend son.
Where I think there was some strange situations in Irish pedigrees, was mainly with some of the females. I remember one particular female we were trying to purchase in Ireland, and in two days we were given 3 totally different pedigrees for her. They also couldn't keep their own records straight as well. We imported a female named Highfield Kate 3rd. There was another Highfield Kate 3rd imported to the US. There were also two Highfield Margeret 2nd females and a total of 3 Highfield Una 3rd's came to North American from Ireland. Some of the Irish breeders were pretty good at making up the pedigree info as they talked.
 
K

kciD

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justintime said:
kciD said:
oakview said:
Irish Pride is actually recorded as a double grandson of Deerpark Improver, although I have heard some debate as to whether Irish Pride's sire, Deerpark Improver 3rd, is actually sired by old Improver.  In addition to TH, I also have some concerns about the foot/hoof deformities.  Until it is determined just where this deformity comes from, I would just be careful if the heifers were mine.  The heifers just might be great producers for you, I don't know.  I'm just saying that I would use caution with mating decisions if they were on my farm.

Anyone who even remotely belives a pedigree of an Irish animal- needs to study history.

Does anyone seriously think that after exporting the Improver bull-- the Irish would import his semen to reuse-- thus all the imported 'sons' who came over?  Doubt it.

Next-  better look up "Leggs" birthdate- 4-14-74.  Then check out his daddy- Dividend's birthdate- 3-9-73...  That was one super fertile 3 month old bull calf... 

I don't think so folks...

While I agree with you in your remarks about the pedigrees of some Irish cattle, i think there is an error in the birthdate of Leggs. I first saw Dividend in March 2007, and he had just turned 4 years old. He was at KABSU being collected and he was probably the best Shorthorn bull I had ever seen to that time. I'm thinking that Leggs was born in 1977 or possibly 1978. I cannot remember what year his dam sold in the Irish sale at Platte City, MO. The Irish government shipped an entire plane full of cattle to be auctioned in this sale. I attended this sale and purchased 5 cows, with two of my partners at that time. We were the runner up bidder on the Tulip female who was carrying Leggs and she was due to calve shortly to Dividend. I remember Leggs was born shortly after this sale. The sale was held in late March of that year. The 5 cows we purchased all calved within a couple weeks of the sale, and I remember that we had to not only export test the cows but also the newborn calves as well. There is no doubt in my mind that Leggs was a Dividend son.
Where I think there was some strange situations in Irish pedigrees, was mainly with some of the females. I remember one particular female we were trying to purchase in Ireland, and in two days we were given 3 totally different pedigrees for her. They also couldn't keep their own records straight as well. We imported a female named Highfield Kate 3rd. There was another Highfield Kate 3rd imported to the US. There were also two Highfield Margeret 2nd females and a total of 3 Highfield Una 3rd's came to North American from Ireland. Some of the Irish breeders were pretty good at making up the pedigree info as they talked.

You must have good vision.. Where could I find that 30 year old set of bones to view? 
 

twistedhshowstock

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OLD WORLD SHORTIE said:
Sale Catalog pdf http://www.shorthorncountry.net/image/2012/TexasStateSale/2012TexasCatalog.pdf
I dont see where the cattle were marketed as being TH free. Ahlschwede Shorthorns is pretty know for their double stuff bulls, which  pretty much to me is associated with TH carriers but also good looking steers.

My understanding of the genetic deffect disclaimer is that the American Shorthorn Association makes no guarantees on genetic defect status of an animal unless it has been tested and noted in their registry, at which point it will show on their papers.  The Breeding Guarantee I believe is like most sales, if an animal is sold in a sale for breeding purposes then the animal is guaranteed as sound to breed.  If the animal for some reason will not breed, i.e. is sterile etc, and it is something that was wrong at the time of the sale then the purchaser is entitled to a full refund.

I could be wrong on this, but this is my understanding.  Many associations make a list of sale terms etc that are inforced at all breed association shows, many breeders use the same guidlines for their shows, thus in their catalogs just put that they follow the associations terms to keep them from havin to spell out all of the terms of sale themselves.  Much like organizations and clubs stating in their bylaws  that they follow Robert's Rules of Order instead of having to spell out each piece of parliminary procedure in their own by laws.
 

cpubarn

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Ryan,

They look like good deep growthy heifers to me.  Have them tested and have fun!  There are so many different types of cattle for different types of people...

I delieve (from too much time on this board) that Oakview and JIT have lots of experience with shorthorns, so watch the improver genetics a little, and have fun!

Are things looking a little greener in tx now???  Down the road, post a pic of their calves when they have them....

Mark
 

oakview

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Some of you are more direct, or less tactful than I!  I have heard from very reliable sources that several of the Irish bulls do not "match" to their pedigree.  I am politely trying to say that I am being very cautious with anything with Improver in it because I do not like to be disappointed, or worse, mad when things don't work out like I want them to.  I just looked at several calves out of my last year's investment in a new herd bull.  A good friend of mine liked the bull and brought up 10-12 cows to breed to him.  Great.  I got a call 2 weeks ago from him and he has several deformed calves.  Yes, they're out of my bull.  He's TH and PHA free.  But, evidently he carries the bad foot/ankle gene, whatever it is.  I have had just one calf out of the bull so far, it is perfectly normal.  His mother is Improver free.  However, my friend has many cows with Double Stuff, thus Improver, genetics and 2 of his calves are 'goofy.'  I have pictures.  It makes me sick to my stomach for both of us.  This has all been reported to the ASA and Dr. Beever.  We're going to do everything we can to help at least identify what's going on, if not help eliminate it.  I just returned to my office from delivering the bull to Tama Livestock Market.  He's an outstanding bull.  I feel sick to my stomach again, but at least this will be the end of it for me.  I don't need the tax write off, but it looks like I'm going to get it again.  The breeder of this bull is one of my best friends in the Shorthorn business.  There is no doubt in my mind that he had absolutely no responsibility or knowledge of this problem.  However, somewhere along the line, somebody has known something and didn't tell.  That person is not going to be me. 
 

jaimiediamond

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-XBAR- said:
There's a substantial number of Shorthorn breeders than have stock going back to the Improver lines.  I just did a search and found a large number of the prominent breeders are still using animals with Improver.  Bowman, Saskvalley (Huberdale Mastercharge), Shome, Duis, WHR, Steinke, Matlock(Paramount14P), Handu, Elbee, Vaith Cattle, Jordan Acres... and thats just the breeder that have spent some loot on ad words and are now on the first 2 pages of google.   So all these breeders 'potentially' have th running through their herds?

I did the same search as you and thought I would post the first breeder that popped up for me.  If you scroll down on the page posted they are clear on their TH views.  Regarding TH status it really depends on the honesty of all people involved. Really nice heifers good luck with them.

http://www.matlockshorthorns.com/sales.html
 

oakview

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You are correct.  You will be hard pressed to find herds that don't have Improver somewhere in their pedigrees.  However, most of the herds you mentioned and many, many others are using animals that are TH free.  To the best of my knowledge, that means that the animal that has been TH tested negative does not have that gene and thus cannot pass it on.  The defect I am referring to is showing up in cattle with Improver genetics and is different.  For examples, look under the fairly recent thread about a potential new genetic defect in Shorthorns.  There are photos.  My bull that is siring this defect is TH free.  I have photos of his calves and they are eerily similar to the photos in the thread.  I had a TH calf about 15 years ago.  The calves with the foot/ankle defect are not even remotely close in appearance.  I have a friend that had a calf with this foot/ankle defect.  The calf is sired by a TH free tested bull, a son of Improver, and the dam traces back to Improver in the 5th generation.  Are all afflicted animals double Improver descndants?  I don't know.  All of the ones I have personal knowldedge of, though, have Improver as the common denominator on both sides of the pedigree.  I don't know enough about genetics to say exactly how this defect is passed on.  If it behaves like most of the defects I am familiar with, such as TH and PHA, then the gene has to be in both parents.  There might be such a thing that this defect behaves differently.  There is perhaps a chance that there are envirnmental factors.  However, in my mind I have reached the conclusion that I don't want to take the chance of adding more of this defect to my herd or the cattle industry.  If I'm proven wrong, then I guess I'll always wish I hadn't sold my bull.
 
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