The future of TH and PHA?

Does anyone see any major changes happening with how associations handle these defects? Will there be a time when the ASA will no longer allow a TH positive shorthorn bull to be registered? Is it always going to be up to the individual breeder as to whether or not to breed TH and PHA carriers?

I don't see the ASA banning TH or PHA carriers in the near future.  There is the possibility of producing an outstanding animal that is clean of both defects.  Just make sure they continue to be labeled!

I dont see them ever banning cattle that test as carriers, and yes it will alwaysbe up to the breeder to decide if they want to risk breeding carriers.

if I'm not mistaken, Maine's already have banned PHA + bulls from being papered?

the truth said:

if I'm not mistaken, Maine's already have banned PHA + bulls from being papered?

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Glad to see the Maines instilling some integrity in their association.  IMO, it is highly unethical to breed animals with known genetic defects. Period.

the truth said:

if I'm not mistaken, Maine's already have banned PHA + bulls from being papered?

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I do not believe that that is true - many of us lobbied for not registering PHAC and THC animals esp bulls but in the end money won

from the AMAA web site

DNA Typing (Parent Verification)

Dams:  Prior to registering ET calves, all donor dams must be DNA typed and TH/PHA tested and on file in the AMAA office.  Registration papers will NOT be mailed from our office if the donor does not have DNA on file.  This applies to registered Maine-Anjou donors AND commercial donor dams.  If you are unsure if a dam has been typed, please call our office.  You need to allow up to three weeks for DNA results to be processed from the lab as well as three weeks for TH/PHA testing.
Bulls:  All bulls that have been collected for marketing OR for home use are also to be DNA typed and TH/PHA tested and on file in our office.  Registrations out of AI sires that have not been typed will be held.
Please call our office if you need any DNA kits.  There is a $35 fee per requested kit.

TH/PHA Testing
Bulls:  Bulls that have not been tested for TH and PHA, and are not free by parentage, will be registered, but their registration paper will be marked "U" or "Untested" in regard to genetic abnormality status.
Dams:  Prior to registering ET calves, all donor dams must be tested for TH and PHA, and on file in the AMAA office.  Registration papers will not be mailed from our office if the donor does not have TH and PHA status on file.  This applies to registered and commercial donor dams.  You need to allow at least three weeks for samples to be processed.
Sires:  All bulls that have been collected for marketing OR for home use are also to be tested for TH and PHA and on file in our office.  Registrations out of AI sires that have not been tested TH and PHA typed will be held.
You can obtain the necessary forms and information on these tests at our website www.maine-anjou.org (click on Genetic Abnormality Information) or contact us at 816-431-9950.

DL said:

the truth said:

if I'm not mistaken, Maine's already have banned PHA + bulls from being papered?

Click to expand...

I do not believe that that is true - many of us lobbied for not registering PHAC and THC animals esp bulls but in the end money won

from the AMAA web site

DNA Typing (Parent Verification)

Dams:  Prior to registering ET calves, all donor dams must be DNA typed and TH/PHA tested and on file in the AMAA office.  Registration papers will NOT be mailed from our office if the donor does not have DNA on file.  This applies to registered Maine-Anjou donors AND commercial donor dams.  If you are unsure if a dam has been typed, please call our office.  You need to allow up to three weeks for DNA results to be processed from the lab as well as three weeks for TH/PHA testing.
Bulls:  All bulls that have been collected for marketing OR for home use are also to be DNA typed and TH/PHA tested and on file in our office.  Registrations out of AI sires that have not been typed will be held.
Please call our office if you need any DNA kits.  There is a $35 fee per requested kit.

TH/PHA Testing
Bulls:  Bulls that have not been tested for TH and PHA, and are not free by parentage, will be registered, but their registration paper will be marked "U" or "Untested" in regard to genetic abnormality status.
Dams:  Prior to registering ET calves, all donor dams must be tested for TH and PHA, and on file in the AMAA office.  Registration papers will not be mailed from our office if the donor does not have TH and PHA status on file.  This applies to registered and commercial donor dams.  You need to allow at least three weeks for samples to be processed.
Sires:  All bulls that have been collected for marketing OR for home use are also to be tested for TH and PHA and on file in our office.  Registrations out of AI sires that have not been tested TH and PHA typed will be held.
You can obtain the necessary forms and information on these tests at our website www.maine-anjou.org (click on Genetic Abnormality Information) or contact us at 816-431-9950.

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Like I said "If I am not Mistaken", meaning "this may or may not be true", or otherwise- I knew serious steps were taken to try and avoid the registration process of carrier bulls, but was unsure if that process fell through or not... I guess what it boiled down to was the association knew they would be losing a chunk of change by declining to paper those animals, but instead chose to line their pockets instead of preserve the integrety of the breed into the future..

I guess JMO.

So do any of you believe that in time this will actually happen? Or will money always win? I would like to think that eventually steps will need to be made to prevent breeding defects that could potentially leave you with a 25% chance of death. Not saying that many breeders breed carriers to carriers, but given the knowledge that it is indeed possible, I would assume its only a matter of time untile PETA and other organizations begin asking questions. 

Redwine Brothers Cattle said:

So do any of you believe that in time this will actually happen? Or will money always win? I would like to think that eventually steps will need to be made to prevent breeding defects that could potentially leave you with a 25% chance of death. Not saying that many breeders breed carriers to carriers, but given the knowledge that it is indeed possible, I would assume its only a matter of time untile PETA and other organizations begin asking questions. 

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The trouble with the TH and PHA situation is that certain segments of the show ring still seek the phenotypes the carriers have. A lot of breeders have tested their herds to bring it under control. I think as far as producing breeding stock for the commercial producer this will pay off in the long run. In my opinion the judges of show steers should be selecting for economical traits. I read about people trying to grow hair in a heat wave in the southern staes. Won't feedlots and pastures with grass fed finishing steers actually want bloodlines that shed out in the heat? I can understand selecting for hair growth in cold climates but even here we want cattle to shed out in the summer.

The actual number of cattle producers that knowingly breed carriers to carriers is very, very, small.  Think about all the cattle matings in the U.S. and Canada and the extremely small amount that would be bred this way.  The associations have taken steps to insure AI sires, ET donors, etc., are tested and identified.  Producers are, or at least SHOULD be, responsible enough to label any carriers as such.  If carriers are identified as they should be and prospective buyers are as careful as they should be, there should be virtually no defective calves born in any herd other than a 'specialty' herd that for some reason doesn't care.  If you're a producer, label the product.  If you're a prospective buyer, ask.  If the animal is a carrier or the seller doesn't know, then don't buy it.  Other than a possible freak of nature, if you never buy a carrier bull, you will never have a defective calf.  Pretty simple.  

oakview said:

The actual number of cattle producers that knowingly breed carriers to carriers is very, very, small.  Think about all the cattle matings in the U.S. and Canada and the extremely small amount that would be bred this way.  The associations have taken steps to insure AI sires, ET donors, etc., are tested and identified.  Producers are, or at least SHOULD be, responsible enough to label any carriers as such.  If carriers are identified as they should be and prospective buyers are as careful as they should be, there should be virtually no defective calves born in any herd other than a 'specialty' herd that for some reason doesn't care.  If you're a producer, label the product.  If you're a prospective buyer, ask.  If the animal is a carrier or the seller doesn't know, then don't buy it.  Other than a possible freak of nature, if you never buy a carrier bull, you will never have a defective calf.  Pretty simple.  

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I completely agree with what you have said. For our herd and the direction we want to go it will never effect us again, we had one of those unfortunate situations where the bull was supposed to be clean" and was not. We did not know that ole girl was a carrier, lesson learned. I understand how simple it is to steer clear of the genetic defect, I was just wondering if different associations were considering not even registering them. Especially being that the "show market" is the only arena in which the defect is desirable.

I dont think any breed association will ever consider not registering them, especially when the majority of the breeds that are highly affected by these genetic defects are breeds that we generally see more emphasis put on in the show ring than in the commercial side of things anyway. You cant completely avoid genetic defects, they are all around us.  Being straigth legged, weak topped, no gutted, trashy fronted are all genetic defects, but nobody is pushing to not register those cattle.  I understand that they arent lethal, but with everyone talking about integrity of the breed we have to see quality.  There are many different reasons people raise cattle and many different markets they are targetting.  It is simple, breeders should have the integrity to know what they are breeding forand take ALL factors available into consideration when making breeding decisions.  All of us see a straight legged cow that cant walk as a problem, or at least we should.  If we have a cow that is to straight we generally take great care in selecting a bull that is not straight legged and doesnt have a history of throwing straight legged calves to breed her to. The same works here, if you have an operation and you absolutely refuse to take the risk of having a deffective calf, then dont breed a carrier to a carrier its a simple as that.  I hear a lot of people complain and get mad because they didnt know the status of one and ended up with a deffective calf. Again the simple solution is have them tested and know for sure that at least one of the mating pair is clean. Its not difficult.  If you are running a specialized operation and you are willing to risk having a deffective calf, then breed whatever you want, at that point your only affecting yourself.  Its not like that deffective calf is ever going to end up in someone elses herd and cause problems for them.  To me its the same as birthweights, I know some breeders that are willing to risk dangerously high birthweights in their heifers just to get a particular mating they want.  Thats their perogative, again they are the only one that is going to get a dead calf or possibly dead heifer. Thats their risk that affects everyone else.  I think the breed associations are doing all thats necessary by requiring registered animals to be tested.  How those animals are bred should be up to the breeder.

has any PHA carrier bull replaced draft pick as a female maker?

don't really see heat wave ever having a female maker reputation.

Twisted...Just playing devil advocate here, but the problem with the argument that it is the same as birthweights or trashy fronts, although I agree with you, is that the perception of the general public, the people who eat at places like these http://www.candle79.com/ don't know or care about a calf with straight legs, or know the dangers of birthweights, but if you tell them that there is a defect out there that everyone knows about, that if breeded can result in a calf that has zero chance for survival, they will be all over our industry like a chicken on a junebug. I am not concerned about the defect personally. What concerns me is the perception of the fire we are playing with if the right person/association/media outlet gets ahold of it.

I understand what your saying, but lets face it those people that arent part of our industry that would be all over it because of TH/PHA if they knew about them are already all over our industry about numerous other things that they really know nothing about.  I guess what I am saying is that there are numerous genetic defects out there, many that we probably havent even discovered the genetic link to yet. Therefore I think saying that we should remove any individual carrying a genetic defect from a registry is a little hasty.  The point I was trying to make is I think by testing the animals and putting their status on the papers so that any potential owner is aware is enough in my book.  I mean to me if you are going to remove any TH/PHA carrier from the herd books because of the potential to throw a deffective(dead) calf and in some instances do damage to the cow, then I think we also have to remove all bulls with high birthweights from the high birthweights from the herdbooks because of the potential that they may get bred to the wrong cow and produce a large calf that ends up dieing and killing the cow in the process of calving.
And just to clarify I am not justifying that, I know its an absurd statement. Because those bulls if used responsibly can be just as safe to use as any other, my point is the same goes with TH/PHA carriers.  If done responsibly they can be left in a herd and bred and produce great calves with little to no risk.

the future will be performing a c-section on a cow with a chromosome doubled sperm with PHA of heatwave calf, raise the testicles in a petri dish till mature sperm can be obtained, sex the semen so no females can be created so that every calf will be guaranteed having PHA and no females can be created.

maybe even make them like seedless grapes and you wouldn't have to castrate them.

not really that far fetched.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15085730