The Lincoln Letter

Interesting article by Decker and Taylor from University of Missouri Genomics lab.One of the take homes was that the Lincoln Reds are more closely related to the original Shorthorn than the general population of today's Shorthorn.

Would you be able to post a link to the article? The Lincoln Red became part of the Canadian Shorthorn Herdbook about 1980. A lot of Lincoln Red blood was used in the breed but the pure Lincoln Red lines almost disappeared. About 6 years ago the Lincoln Red breeders withdrew from the Shorthorn Association in order to preserve their purity. They gave collected semen from older Lincoln Red bulls and attempted to create a bank of genetics. A lot of Canadian shorthorns have a cross of Lincoln. In our herd we used Bodmin HM Alberta Mark 71A whose maternal grandsire, Green Row Lodestar 26L was 7/8 Lincoln Red. Lodestar was one of the best bulls I have ever seen. He was long with lots of muscle and easy fleshing with as good a foot as I have seen on any bull.

http://www.lincolnred.org/breed-history.html

found it?

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/3342502/2011-fall-dna-study-pdf-december-9-2011-6-32-pm-127k?da=y

i would be careful about the assumptions of relatedness due to influx of other breeds.  

i think we are going to hear an awful lot from mr. decker in the future.  hopefully he doesn't end up at a corporation.

knabe said:

found it?

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/3342502/2011-fall-dna-study-pdf-december-9-2011-6-32-pm-127k?da=y

i would be careful about the assumptions of relatedness due to influx of other breeds.  i think we are going to hear an awful lot from mr. decker in the future.  hopefully he doesn't end up at a corporation.

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Thanks Knabe
Is the influx of other breeds why the Shorthorn animals show the most variation in the graph? It would be be interesting to see the Maine Anjou and Belgium Blue graphed and possibibly something like a Hereford just to get an idea of the significance of the graph. Is it possible that the Maine Anjou cattle introduced in the ASA herdbook have an even greater genetic contribution than you would expect due to selection and linebreeding? (based on the comments on the bottom of 2nd page of article)

unknown without looking at data and where markers came from and went.

it's not clear to me that maine's were linebred, they are probably close bred and went through several rounds of constraint since they were originally two different pools, ie fire ice matings.

it was probably pretty important what actually happened in the 1850's when all these breeds appeared as the problems we are dealing with now originated with the original selections and labor inputs, ie pulling calves vs. not.

knabe said:

unknown without looking at data and where markers came from and went.

it's not clear to me that maine's were linebred, they are probably close bred and went through several rounds of constraint since they were originally two different pools, ie fire ice matings.
it was probably pretty important what actually happened in the 1850's when all these breeds appeared as the problems we are dealing with now originated with the original selections and labor inputs, ie pulling calves vs. not.

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I was actually wondering about the linebreeding within the American Shorthorn Ass. to Cunia through the Trump lines and a couple of other Maine bulls that  have been linebred in the ASA herdbook. Would their influence be magnified through selection?

Okotoks said:

I was actually wondering about the linebreeding within the American Shorthorn Ass. to Cunia through the Trump lines and a couple of other Maine bulls that  have been linebred in the ASA herdbook. Would their influence be magnified through selection?

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if the maine traits were selected for.  one could easily find this out by including a bunch of trump cattle, pretend they were their own breed and see where they fell. 

i would have the owner of trump pick out a bunch and submit them.  they will do this for a small fee.  to me, some of this might be saying that "oh, see, the trumps really aren't shorthorn".  to me, that's not the issue, who really cares.  the only thing i care about is parentage verification, especially when flushing.

That chart kind of lays out a summary of the last 30 yrs of Shorthorn breeding programs in general.It looks like you could have an appendix free animal and still be a long way from the cluster.I wonder why this was never published in the Shorthorn Country?

r.n.reed said:

That chart kind of lays out a summary of the last 30 yrs of Shorthorn breeding programs in general.It looks like you could have an appendix free animal and still be a long way from the cluster.I wonder why this was never published in the Shorthorn Country?

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it will happen with any breed and breeding program over 30 years unless one samples the breadth of the breed which i don't know a single breeder does.  they pick stuff they like along with what their customers like which leaves out an awful lot of cattle. 

hopefully some of these carcass traits and other recent targets of molecular breeding won't narrow the overall genetic diversity too fast as we don't really know what all the diversity is about, good and bad and otherwise.

knabe said:

r.n.reed said:

That chart kind of lays out a summary of the last 30 yrs of Shorthorn breeding programs in general.It looks like you could have an appendix free animal and still be a long way from the cluster.I wonder why this was never published in the Shorthorn Country?

Click to expand...

it will happen with any breed and breeding program over 30 years unless one samples the breadth of the breed which i don't know a single breeder does.  they pick stuff they like along with what their customers like which leaves out an awful lot of cattle. 

the diversity is about, good and bad and otherwise.

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Knabe some of those native cattle were Milking Shorthorns that had been bred different for 50 plus years minimum and they were still right in the middle of the cluster,can you explain that in light of what you said in your last post.I agree with you that we need to be careful to not get into a new wave of single trait selection.

r.n.reed said:

Knabe some of those native cattle were Milking Shorthorns that had been bred different for 50 plus years minimum and they were still right in the middle of the cluster,can you explain that in light of what you said in your last post.I agree with you that we need to be careful to not get into a new wave of single trait selection.

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two potential things.  sample size, sample diversity.  probably a lot of milking shorthorn diversity has been lost.  the same thing probably would happen if it were performed 200 years ago.

I guess it would need to be clarified what Milking Shorthorn bulls were used.The ones that I know were used were a continuation of the old scotch topped cattle of the 20's and 30's with maybe a dash of English dairy breeding added.The native beef type shorthorns used were from the same base but intensely bred Scotch from that point on.I wouldn't think any modern day Milking Shorthorns were used and still have them that close.If the Shorthorn assoc.has opened the gate to other breeds,I would say the milkers have pulled the fences down by comparison.
Something else that raises a question to me is that the dots kind of form a right angle with the cluster of natives at the point.Would this indicate two primary outcross breeds,say Chi and Maine.

r.n.reed said:

I guess it would need to be clarified what Milking Shorthorn bulls were used.The ones that I know were used were a continuation of the old scotch topped cattle of the 20's and 30's with maybe a dash of English dairy breeding added.The native beef type shorthorns used were from the same base but intensely bred Scotch from that point on.I wouldn't think any modern day Milking Shorthorns were used and still have them that close.If the Shorthorn assoc.has opened the gate to other breeds,I would say the milkers have pulled the fences down by comparison.
Something else that raises a question to me is that the dots kind of form a right angle with the cluster of natives at the point.Would this indicate two primary outcross breeds,say Chi and Maine.

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Would you know if there are many cattle that trace to the Clay importation of the 1830"s. We have a cow line that we can trace to a cow born on 1835 and two others that trace to a cow imported to Canada in the 1830's but of course their influence is infinitesimal as they were crossed with many other lines over the years. I was just wondering if there were any that were of those lines left.

Okotoks,I havent really studied things back that far but I do know that the Glenside herd was built on cows that were said to have descended from the Clay importation.This would mean that Columbus the Graham bull would most likely go back to that line as the Guckian herd that produced his dam had a strong influence of that breeding.

Okotoks said:

r.n.reed said:

I guess it would need to be clarified what Milking Shorthorn bulls were used.The ones that I know were used were a continuation of the old scotch topped cattle of the 20's and 30's with maybe a dash of English dairy breeding added.The native beef type shorthorns used were from the same base but intensely bred Scotch from that point on.I wouldn't think any modern day Milking Shorthorns were used and still have them that close.If the Shorthorn assoc.has opened the gate to other breeds,I would say the milkers have pulled the fences down by comparison.
Something else that raises a question to me is that the dots kind of form a right angle with the cluster of natives at the point.Would this indicate two primary outcross breeds,say Chi and Maine.

Click to expand...

Would you know if there are many cattle that trace to the Clay importation of the 1830"s. We have a cow line that we can trace to a cow born on 1835 and two others that trace to a cow imported to Canada in the 1830's but of course their influence is infinitesimal as they were crossed with many other lines over the years. I was just wondering if there were any that were of those lines left.

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http://joycebarnes.vpweb.com/#  jbarj, albaughs, haumont... These folks suggest their cattle do.  I'm still trying to distinguish all the "types"of shorthorns out there.  Shorthorns, beef shorthorn, milking shorthorn, dual purpose shorthorn, dual purpose milking shorthorn, dual registered shorthorn, native shorthorn, dairy shorthorn, etc....  I'm so confused.  Jbarj says all cattle that trace back to the 2 original importations are dual purpose milking shorthorns.  I'm sure that  statement would offend some beef type producers.  Here I have 25 reg shorthorn cows and can't even tell someone what type.  How are these categories defined?  Where can I find some info on this topic as most of the sources I find are contradictory??? 

angus have lots of categories too, they just don't openly say it.

Well Chandler you missed a few but yes its a small pie with a lot of pieces.The breeds ability to adapt to a wide variety of production scenarios has also been a source of confusion.I trust you have acquired cows that you think will meet your prodution goals,stay focused on your program and your customers needs and some day there may be a Chandler type Shorthorn.