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Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: mark tenenbaum on November 10, 2010, 09:22:11 PM

Title: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on November 10, 2010, 09:22:11 PM
JOHNNY HOOK HOOKS SIMMENTAL DISCOVERED DIVIDEND AND THE IRISH CATTLE BY HAPPENSTANCE- THE REST IS HISTORY The state of Kansas has INEVITABLY collected some pretty eclectic designations. Arguably-one of the most important "backwoods" cattle discoverys of the 20th century would have been when JONNY HOOK-a simmital (in 1971) breeder from Kansas stumbled across Deerpark Leader the 13 as a calf in Ireland. I took him from the Iowa state fair to Kansas one time back around 1992-and he told me the story stumbling across these incredible Shorthorns in Ireland, getting hooked(no pun intended) with Beef Genetics Research in Kansas-and History was made. I saw early pics of Dividend -and Improver on display at the WO sale where-with Mrs WO-standing behind them in 1972+-They were thicker and squarer butted-than alot of(non-maine-clubby) cattle even  today-there again-the Us shorthorns had been plagued by the dual-Ayatollah type genetics.I Pmd Oakleaf-ABOUT MY TRIP TO iRELAND IN 1990-etc-AND i HIT EM ALL-INCLUDING QUANES. The thing that most impressed me was Hook talking about what a cool-good sport Dividend was-just a doll-and everybody loved him. ((% of the Irish cattle I have encountered would rival the EXT Angus-in thier"GOOD NATURE".Almost every animal that went back to-or was sired by Dividend-was a teddy bear like him. DIVIDEND DOESNT BLOOD TYPE_But Hes still one of the best bulls of any breed that ever lived. O0
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: yuppiecowboy on November 11, 2010, 06:54:15 PM
The story as I have been told was that Harris Simons, executive secretary I believe, came back from Ireland around 1968 ish with stories of shorthorn cattle weaning in excess of 800 pounds. He was called a liar and essentially ran out of the breed.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: E6 Durhams on November 11, 2010, 07:28:50 PM
So what breeding was the 13th bull in ur opinion. What was his "cross"? if u will
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on November 11, 2010, 07:39:22 PM
So what breeding was the 13th bull in ur opinion. What was his "cross"? if u will

ask tim ohlde.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on November 11, 2010, 08:58:23 PM
So what breeding was the 13th bull in ur opinion. What was his "cross"? if u will

ask tim ohlde.///OR Jonny Hook-
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on November 11, 2010, 10:26:56 PM
DIVIDEND DOESNT BLOOD TYPE_But Hes still one of the best bulls of any breed that ever lived. O0

how could he type?  his gene pool wasn't in the typed population.

any idea what he typed to if not shorthorn?
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: E6 Durhams on November 12, 2010, 05:46:49 AM
Wow I am just gettin more questions the answers so I will drop it. Never would have guessed Ohlde would know. Crazy stuff.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: aj on November 12, 2010, 07:46:20 AM
Very interesting history and politics on all this stuff. I have heard that the allowing of the Maine Anjou into the Shorthorn book at 3 quarter level passed by one vote. At first the Irish cattle weren't accepted then they were. I always wondered if a breeds members ever voted on such a question?
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on November 12, 2010, 08:53:49 AM
Wow I am just gettin more questions the answers so I will drop it. Never would have guessed Ohlde would know. Crazy stuff.

no need. keep asking.  the best things come from the scenario you mentioned where more questions come than answers.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: oldhorn on November 12, 2010, 10:02:33 AM
yuppie cowboy is right.  Harris simons, WHO was owner andeditor of the Shorthorn world first told of the tremendous weaning weights o Irish cattle .  while they looked shorthorn, he made no claim as to their purity.  Harris Had other pro bblems and i don't think the issue of his promotion of Irish cattle was thefactor that led to the demise of the shorthorn world .  Alan sears could probably tell you the whole story.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on November 12, 2010, 12:36:42 PM
DIVIDEND DOESNT BLOOD TYPE_But Hes still one of the best bulls of any breed that ever lived. O0

how could he type?  his gene pool wasn't in the typed population.////-I guess because he was still in use almost 30 years later O0

any idea what he typed to if not shorthorn?
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Dale on November 12, 2010, 07:20:20 PM
ASA had an agreement with Coates Herd Book (in Britain) that whatever cattle were accepted into Coates, automatically came into ASA herd book, so Irish came into the U.S. through a loophole without regard to their purity.  Was that in the early 70's?  Many of us were impressed by Dividend and Improver when they were on display in Louisville--there was a big debate about which was the better bull.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: aj on November 13, 2010, 06:34:25 AM
I myself am not a "purity guy....non asterisk or whatever". I think predictability is more important. I think we could start a list of asterisk free bulls that most people know are impure.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: E6 Durhams on November 13, 2010, 08:08:20 AM
How many cattle in the herdbook trace back to these Irish cattle? Where the bulls really that good to overlook the impurity? If he doesn't blood type, how in the wide world of sports does he still qualify shortie? What was the outside breed crossed? (I don't want to call Ohlde lol). Just curious. I find it crazy that they would be allowed when everyone knew they were not pure. I still can't believe Tim Ohlde was involoved with this deal.I picture him as the angus man still even tho he has shorties. I talked with Lee Johnson awhile back, he was talkin about all this, said it was a huge stink for awhile and he gave me a wink.. But didn't really explain it. I have a feeling no shorties are truly pure anymore. If there are lines out there that have remained pure, what are they? Where are they?
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: GM on November 13, 2010, 08:50:59 AM
I often wondered what Dividend was.  You really didn't see that speckled red necked roan color pattern like his on too many shorthorns prior to dividend (at least that I've seen).  TPS Coronet Leader 21st didn't throw roans like Dividend or spots like WO Dividend when breed to red cows.  I believe the only other cattle in the UK that had a roan color pattern were the Irish Moiled (a naturally polled breed) and the English Longhorn (thick cattle nothing like texas longhorns).  I think it's common knowledge that Improver was at least a 1/4 galloway.  I always thought the irish cattle might be remnants of draft/working cattle.

Does anyone know who Quane was marketing too in Ireland?  Was he breeding to produce bulls for local commercial cattleman?  finished steers?  Was he following what his father, his fathers father, etc always did by raising these cattle?  I assume they weren't breeding for showing/recraetion like many US breeders. 

On the Irish Breed Society it says "The breed was used in the early part of the 20th Century, primarily as a dual purpose breed, but specialisation for beef and milk led to the beef breeders starting their own section of the herd book in 1958. Since that time the beef Shorthorns have been developed as a separate breed and in 1976 in an effort to improve the muscling in the breed, the Directors of the Beef Shorthorn Cattle Society sanctioned the use of Maine-Anjou blood into the breed. The herd book was then closed again to outside blood in 2001, except by introduction through Grading Register."  Not sure how soon before 1976 Maines were used.  They have an interesting set of bulls listed on the site.  I requested a copy of their sire summary and they sent one to me.  There are bulls w/ Deerpark, Ballyart, Highfield blood, and some pedigrees that might as well be written in greek.  There are also a lot of canadian bulls in their catalogue.  Here's the site: http://www.irishshorthorns.com/ (http://www.irishshorthorns.com/)

Trevor, you mention "purebred" shorthorns.  These guys have been breeding for a long time and used to register under the name Frosty Acres.  The Frosty Acres genetics show up in a lot of west coast cattle that are being shown today actually (if you go back far enough).  You can tell by the site that these cattle are not pampered or selected for the show ring...aka beauty is in the eye of the beholder... http://albaughranch.com/our_cattle.html (http://albaughranch.com/our_cattle.html)

 
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: yuppiecowboy on November 13, 2010, 08:55:31 AM
As I understand it, Clare Man (sire of Improver) was aquired form the village auction. He most resembled a galloway, but at least he was red. I doubt that it is a coincidence that Improver is the Typhoid Mary of a genetic defect long known to be in Galloways.

I believe necessity dictated that liberties be taken with the "purity" aspect of breed. At that time the continentals were rolling in and shorthorns were in peril of becoming irrelevant (personally I think the decisions made then hastened the breed demise) and a great deal of back room deals and politics guided the way. Also at this time Milking Shorthorns were let in, if you had the money and the right name to get your Milking Shorthorn animal validated.

You cant argue that there were some Irish cattle that improved the breed and were quality beef animals (not sure if dividend is one of them though) but at that time it was all about growth and frame and marketing the country of origin.

These two additions sure helped the growth and frame score, but both damaged the breed far more than they helped it. After the Irish Mutts and Duals did their damage, it was necessary to let Maine Anjou in to try and fix it. Maines are probably higher in foundation shorthorn blood than anything that ever came from Ireland.

There are some small concentrations of what would be considered pure, or scotch shorthorns around. Somebody has a website somewhere on their efforts. There are a great deal of herds in Canada that never followed the fads we did in the US chasing frame at all cost and undoubtedly stayed a genetic path that would be devoid of Irish, dual, or maine contamination.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: yuppiecowboy on November 13, 2010, 09:30:31 AM
GM, we think alike but apparently you type faster.

I wondered if the funky markings might have been due to Ayrshire influence?

The individual escapes me, but I remember being told that one prominent Irish bull came from a smallholder who had one cow that he led down the road to get serviced every year.

Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: aj on November 13, 2010, 10:00:04 AM
Did the dual(milking shorthorn) hurt things all that though? The Angus breed used the Holstein to change type. At least I think the milking shorthorn and shorthorn were kinda related. I think the duals helped milking ability and udder shape. Some dual bloodlines killed fleshing ability while increasing growth. In reality a breed should change some over a 100 year period do to changing conditions. Since the Shorthorn breed is so widespread worldwide I think there have been genetic offshoots to chnage things up. There probably more different germ plasma in the Shortrhorn breed than any other breed,for better or worse. I don't see how you can look at the black maine cattle today(being shown) and call them anywhere near being pure.jmo
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Okotoks on November 13, 2010, 10:07:12 AM
I don't beleive the color pattern of the Irish will help determine what their make up might be. I was recently given a 1940 Shorthorn News by Bud and Lil Boake and a champion Shorthorn Steer pictured was red with white socks. The red with mark marks color pattern is linked to the the light or white roan pattern as neither have the white limitining factor. (Angus have the white limiting factor so any white is only occurring on their underline whereas most Holsteins don't have a white limiting factor so you get the whole black and white range of patterns)  The early Shorthorns were often red with white marks or light roan especially the Bates Shorthorns. Look at the old photos of Duchess 34th, Belvedere and Duke of Northumberland. In the 1930's, 40's'50's and 60's red ruled in Beef Shorthorns.Since red was selected for most of the roans were even dark roans and almost all bull calves with white markings were steerd. The dual puropose and milking were selected mostly on milk production not color so you still got light roans like Columbus and Spiro. You also got red with white marks still showing up in beef herds. In 1969 we bought a heifer from Pethybridges that was red with white marks.The red and white pattern in Maine Anjou actually came from the shorthorns that were used in developing the Maine breed.
If you read the different histories of the shorthorn breed you find there were times that whites and roans were the fashion over reds.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on November 13, 2010, 10:12:11 AM
When I was over there Ballyart-and Paddy Ocallihan had about six cows between them two or three of those being Herefords. The cows at Deerpark and Highfield and the Shannon cows (a few that were 20 years old) didnt really look dual. They were flat and square in the rear-but alot wider than the American cattle. If anything-the spots come from maine-not Ayrshire.As far as calling them mutts etc-they were a dam sight better than ANYTHING I SAW OVER HERE. The English cattle were not.-Very wasty-patchy fat.If you go back to books from the late 1800s-(got a couple yet) and see market days in Ireland-the cattle were huge-looked 6 feet tall.The Irish breeders didnt want to dwarf thier cattle with the "improved" scotch midgets.When I was there- Edward Quane, John Mcnally etc-were trying to get Byland Goldwalk(a dual-maine from enticer deal) semen because they had literally run out of room to linebreed anymore. I for one am happy they refused to breed thier cattle to the Ponies O0
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on November 13, 2010, 10:25:20 AM
i have these old prints of mancelles and one looks like it could be roany.

http://www.prints-4-all.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi (http://www.prints-4-all.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi)
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: yuppiecowboy on November 13, 2010, 04:27:20 PM
Mark, chill out and go grab a glass of wine. You are missing the forest for the trees here in regard to my statements.

First of all, when I mention Irish color I am not talking the prominance of acceptable but formerly uncommon patterns like red neck roan. What I am refering to is a splotchy spottedness and different hue. You either know what I am refering to or you dont and I dont know how to explain it other than grab a sale catalog from Aldens about the time they sold out and then go to Leveldale's website where they have pictures of cattle through the century and you will get what I am saying.

As far as liking the cattle in Ireland you saw more than the those in England, I am sure if I was with you I would have agreed. Does not change the fact that the lineage of the cattle as being of pure blood of the foundation Coates or even Bates is dubious at best. Chris Black has some really cool looking herefords, but that doesnt mean they arent mixed blood.

I am in no way a purist thinking that being able to trace a pedigree back to the original Duchess means a thing. I think there are Irish cattle that improved the national cowherd for sure. Not sure if Dividend was one of them though.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: yuppiecowboy on November 13, 2010, 04:39:40 PM
AJ, as far as letting the duals in it seems to me the question should be how were they ever out? As I understand it there were several herds that essentially milked their beef cows because one cow could raise two calves and when dollars were hard to come by they chose a registration association. They were still shorthorns. As I understand it it was these "beefy" dairy cattle that were targeted to have their gene pool reintroduced when the herd book opened. Unfortunately in the chase for frame bulls with dairy characteristics were utilized just because they were tall and were envogue. Same as using anything Irish just because it was Irish. Same as in the 50s using anything imported from Scotland because it was from Scotland.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: GM on November 13, 2010, 05:47:12 PM
Yuppie Cowboy, we do think alike.  However, it appears you were not a fan of Dividend.  I think he may have helped the breed in many ways; more so than Ayatollah, Clark, Columbus, etc.  I just wish it could be measured.  I know the irish cattle helped frame size, rib eye, testicles, feet, etc, but it seems as though we don't have tangible evidence of how much they helped overall.

We can point to bulls that shaped generations.  I'm wondering what you believe will be the bull, or breeding program, that will shape the next generation.  Here's what I see as the most influential bulls that I can remember... 

TPS Coronet Leader 21st -> Kinnaber Leader 9th -> Clark -> Kenmar Ransom 32Z -> Millbrook Ransom G9 -> Deerpark Improver -> Deerpark Leader 13th -> Ayatollah -> Deerpark Improver 2nd -> Deerpark Improver 57 ->  HS Rodeo Drive 062WR -> CF Trump -> AHL DOUBLE STUFF 306 -> WHR Sonny -> CF Solution -> Jakes Proud Jazz -> ??? what's next...SULL Red Reward...Captain Obvious...Sneed Breeding...Dover Breeding...Canadian Breeding...idk ???

I know a lot of bulls from the pre Irish era have been re-introduced.  I think it's interesting, and nostalgic perhaps, but I'm wondering what specific business need they are accomplishing.  I don't think the adjective "easy fleshing" is a specific enough business need.  I would like to see a study done where calves out of these bulls, the irish bulls, rodeo drive bulls, trump bulls, etc were tested for bw, ww, adg, feedlot tested, choice and quality carcass graded, profit, etc.  If I had the money I'd sponsor such as test.  I think one of the universities did this with old angus semen recently.

What bulls/breeding will shape the next generation?  Who would have thought Proud Jazz would be used as much as he has?  What's the next Proud Jazz?

Thanks for the topics, and thanks for the input.  I appreciate everyone's comments.

GM
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on November 13, 2010, 06:18:15 PM
Mark, chill out and go grab a glass of wine. You are missing the forest for the trees here in regard to my statements.

First of all, when I mention Irish color I am not talking the prominance of acceptable but formerly uncommon patterns like red neck roan. What I am refering to is a splotchy spottedness and different hue. You either know what I am refering to or you dont and I dont know how to explain it other than grab a sale catalog from Aldens about the time they sold out and then go to Leveldale's website where they have pictures of cattle through the century and you will get what I am saying.

As far as liking the cattle in Ireland you saw more than the those in England, I am sure if I was with you I would have agreed. Does not change the fact that the lineage of the cattle as being of pure blood of the foundation Coates or even Bates is dubious at best. Chris Black has some really cool looking herefords, but that doesnt mean they arent mixed blood.

I am in no way a purist thinking that being able to trace a pedigree back to the original Duchess means a thing. I think there are Irish cattle that improved the national cowherd for sure. Not sure if Dividend was one of them though.//////I have two books that I found in England-the first isShorthorn cattle-1918-by Alvin Sanders(US) with numerous photos going back to Aprox-1876-many of which were RWM cows-including a painting of the Duchess cow Circa 1842-owned by Mr Bates.She is roan-and the daughter with her is RWM-there are pics in the next book of others in this line-also rwm,along with the Collins cattle-ditto. The earliest Photograveures (that I have in front of me) are in 50 years among Shorthorns-by Robert Bruce (uk) and published in 1907-near the of his life.There are a number of blaze faced almost hereford looking cattle shown(purebreds in the 19th cenrury)-and some odd colored cattle that look alot like the Dutch cattle Ive seen in paintings from whence shorthorns originated,Im basically relating to cattle I saw in Ireland-and referances from well over 100 years ago-not Aldens dispersal.Thus-its not hard to differentiate between maine coloring-and the old blood.The closest consistent examples of the blotchy off tone colrs Ive seen alot of here were the 3w payoffs in various incarnations.

Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: GM on November 13, 2010, 06:22:42 PM
Mark, chill out and go grab a glass of wine. You are missing the forest for the trees here in regard to my statements.

First of all, when I mention Irish color I am not talking the prominance of acceptable but formerly uncommon patterns like red neck roan. What I am refering to is a splotchy spottedness and different hue. You either know what I am refering to or you dont and I dont know how to explain it other than grab a sale catalog from Aldens about the time they sold out and then go to Leveldale's website where they have pictures of cattle through the century and you will get what I am saying.

As far as liking the cattle in Ireland you saw more than the those in England, I am sure if I was with you I would have agreed. Does not change the fact that the lineage of the cattle as being of pure blood of the foundation Coates or even Bates is dubious at best. Chris Black has some really cool looking herefords, but that doesnt mean they arent mixed blood.

I am in no way a purist thinking that being able to trace a pedigree back to the original Duchess means a thing. I think there are Irish cattle that improved the national cowherd for sure. Not sure if Dividend was one of them though.//////I have two books that I found in England-the first isShorthorn cattle-1918-by Alvin Sanders(US) with numerous photos going back to Aprox-1876-many of which were RWM cows-including a painting of the Duchess cow Circa 1842-owned by Mr Bates.She is roan-and the daughter with her is RWM-there are pics in the next book of others in this line-also rwm,along with the Collins cattle-ditto. The earliest Photograveures (that I have in front of me) are in 50 years among Shorthorns-by Robert Bruce (uk) and published in 1907-near the of his life.There are a number of blaze faced almost hereford looking cattle shown(purebreds in the 19th cenrury)-and some odd colored cattle that look alot like the Dutch cattle Ive seen in paintings from whence shorthorns originated,Im basically relating to cattle I saw in Ireland-and referances from well over 100 years ago-not Aldens dispersal.Thus-its not hard to differentiate between maine coloring-and the old blood.The closest consistent examples of the blotchy off tone colrs Ive seen alot of here were the 3w payoffs in various incarnations.


3W Payoff's sire and dam were both sired by Dividend...they were half siblings...lol...Payoff threw the loudest colors ever next to WO Dividend and Dividend himself
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on November 13, 2010, 06:42:08 PM
The story as I have been told was that Harris Simons, executive secretary I believe, came back from Ireland around 1968 ish with stories of shorthorn cattle weaning in excess of 800 pounds. He was called a liar and essentially ran out of the breed. ////Divdend wasnt alive yet in 1968
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: yuppiecowboy on November 13, 2010, 07:04:22 PM
GM, let me start by saying compared to the Graham bulls you listed Dividend was a messiah. I have known of many a L13 cow that was tremendous. If bred correctly he did a great job of one generation overhauling of plain dumpy scotchy cows. My disdain is more towards the over promotion and over use as a one size fits all widget. I just happen to think there were some bulls that did it my way more than he did. Whatever Dividend did wrong, it can be fixed, bred around, or bred through. If I were a shorthorn breeder, the ancestral presence of any of the dually bulls you mentioned  would be a genetic defect scrutinized and culled more diligently than a TH/PHA carrier with dandruff and bad breath.

Influential is not necessarily a good thing. To go down your line up of "influential" bulls, I wont disagree with your picks, the most common theme I note about them, at least the most prominent ones, is that they were "changers". They did something extreme. You can almost fol ow that line up as a time line and see that the "hot" bull from one year pretty much was supposed to fix what the "hot " bull from ten years previous did. It is actually amusing to look at those names and see the breed evolution take place in front of you.

As far as the old schools being reintroduced, I have actually pondered this. I can think of four breeders I personally knew who didn't like the move toward soupbone cattle with legs. The old boys I am thinking of wanted more performance for sure, but also wanted a moderate framed efficient beast with carcass merit. Having principals is noble, but losing your butt knowing you re right is a fools errand. The guys I am thinking of threw in the towel and went with Saler cattle, angus cattle, or gave up altogether. The next great "uberbull" should be boring as a turtle race. Balanced quality in all aspects.  This will not happen simply because there is no money to be made in promotion of this.
The purebred breeder aspect of the breed seems to have historically been about commotion, promotion, and change. The money in that breed has always been about chasing the rabbit. Take a look at the powers that be and have been.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: yuppiecowboy on November 13, 2010, 07:15:40 PM
Mark, Payoff is pretty much the poster child for goofy irish paint jobs I am talking about. He is the shining example.

Second Dividend was not the first nor last calf born in Ireland.My point was simply that the existance of Shorthorn looking cattle in Ireland of notable size and performance had been noted previous to Mr Hook. Not taking anything away from Mr Hook nor his story nor his accomplishments.  I am rather curious how Hook determined Dividends merits in 1971 though.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on November 13, 2010, 07:16:12 PM
Mark, chill out and go grab a glass of wine. You are missing the forest for the trees here in regard to my statements.

First of all, when I mention Irish color I am not talking the prominance of acceptable but formerly uncommon patterns like red neck roan. What I am refering to is a splotchy spottedness and different hue. You either know what I am refering to or you dont and I dont know how to explain it other than grab a sale catalog from Aldens about the time they sold out and then go to Leveldale's website where they have pictures of cattle through the century and you will get what I am saying.

As far as liking the cattle in Ireland you saw more than the those in England, I am sure if I was with you I would have agreed. Does not change the fact that the lineage of the cattle as being of pure blood of the foundation Coates or even Bates is dubious at best. Chris Black has some really cool looking herefords, but that doesnt mean they arent mixed blood.

I am in no way a purist thinking that being able to trace a pedigree back to the original Duchess means a thing. I think there are Irish cattle that improved the national cowherd for sure. Not sure if Dividend was one of them though.//////I have two books that I found in England-the first isShorthorn cattle-1918-by Alvin Sanders(US) with numerous photos going back to Aprox-1876-many of which were RWM cows-including a painting of the Duchess cow Circa 1842-owned by Mr Bates.She is roan-and the daughter with her is RWM-there are pics in the next book of others in this line-also rwm,along with the Collins cattle-ditto. The earliest Photograveures (that I have in front of me) are in 50 years among Shorthorns-by Robert Bruce (uk) and published in 1907-near the of his life.There are a number of blaze faced almost hereford looking cattle shown(purebreds in the 19th cenrury)-and some odd colored cattle that look alot like the Dutch cattle Ive seen in paintings from whence shorthorns originated,Im basically relating to cattle I saw in Ireland-and referances from well over 100 years ago-not Aldens dispersal.Thus-its not hard to differentiate between maine coloring-and the old blood.The closest consistent examples of the blotchy off tone colrs Ive seen alot of here were the 3w payoffs in various incarnations.


3W Payoff's sire and dam were both sired by Dividend...they were half siblings...lol...Payoff threw the loudest colors ever next to WO Dividend and Dividend himself
///-Thats as long as you believe everything in the pedigree and that Payoff was horned-yet a 100percent dehorner LOL
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on November 13, 2010, 07:28:42 PM
Mark, Payoff is pretty much the poster child for goofy irish paint jobs I am talking about. He is the shining example.

Second Dividend was not the first nor last calf born in Ireland.My point was simply that the existance of Shorthorn looking cattle in Ireland of notable size and performance had been noted previous to Mr Hook. Not taking anything away from Mr Hook nor his story nor his accomplishments.  I am rather curious how Hook determined Dividends merits in 1971 though. ////Mighta been a year earlier-he was over there looking for other cattle and found him. I dont think any of those cattle were weaning close to 800 in any case-the cattle are for the most part later maturing and in Ireland-basically developed on grass and a little hay.The cattle imported or used here foolow the same pattern-they just keep going.Bullocks graze untill the age of 3 or 4-and really dont get any size untill the age of three or 4-.I still want to know about the Canadian cattle-that werent related to any Irish-or Enticer,(Australian Dual)or even Glenford Curt type breeding. Maybe JIT can list a few herds
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: yuppiecowboy on November 13, 2010, 08:05:51 PM
Mark, you are heck of a good guy, we like the same kind and I have enjoyed personally conversing with you. We are not necessarily in disagreement on anything here.

Since I wasnt there i really am in no position to defend the claim a guy, I presume deceased, made over forty years ago. I would say that since full irish bull calves weaning in excess of 800 pounds here is certainly not uncommon, logic would be on the side of the story having merit.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on November 13, 2010, 08:35:07 PM
I m not ruffled or anything else-Im also guilty of raising (in the day) some pretty big cattle. Mad Max-(Louisville 1993) was huge-He was the largest BW and otherwise full sib to RPS Grandslam-He was one of the heaviest JR Yearlings to that date-at Louisville-and he weaned at 735 lbs,at 6.5 months-and ended up an 8 plus frame. I had an unknown bull called fleetfoot-a Goldwalk son who wieghed approx-750 pounds at 7 months and may have been a tick ahead of his time, An 800 pound weaning wieght is just a pretty big animal,and to  come out of a cow without a winch (had them too) I pushed mine pretty hard-we knew Max was good early on-and wanted him ready as a calf at Louisville- (he was too small).
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: peachy on November 13, 2010, 08:53:02 PM
Mark- do you have a picture of Mad max. I remember the name but I cant picture him.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Okotoks on November 13, 2010, 09:16:07 PM
Mark, Payoff is pretty much the poster child for goofy irish paint jobs I am talking about. He is the shining example.

Second Dividend was not the first nor last calf born in Ireland.My point was simply that the existance of Shorthorn looking cattle in Ireland of notable size and performance had been noted previous to Mr Hook. Not taking anything away from Mr Hook nor his story nor his accomplishments.  I am rather curious how Hook determined Dividends merits in 1971 though. ////Mighta been a year earlier-he was over there looking for other cattle and found him. I dont think any of those cattle were weaning close to 800 in any case-the cattle are for the most part later maturing and in Ireland-basically developed on grass and a little hay.The cattle imported or used here foolow the same pattern-they just keep going.Bullocks graze untill the age of 3 or 4-and really dont get any size untill the age of three or 4-.I still want to know about the Canadian cattle-that werent related to any Irish-or Enticer,(Australian Dual)or even Glenford Curt type breeding. Maybe JIT can list a few herds
You would have a challenge finding many shorthorns in Canada that didn't have at least one cross of Irish in their background. When the Iirish were admitted to the Canadian book as purebreds(originally they were in the Graded Up book) there were only two votes against at our annual meeting. Even those two breeders used some Irish influence later.At the time they were represented as being pure but having no registrations(similar to the Dover situation). I do know at one time a lot of Booth bred cattle were sent to Ireland so maybe some of them would have some of that blood. You hear a lot of speculation but I have never heard anything concrete about what their make up is. I would have thought they were discovered about the same time as the Maine Anjou started being introduced to Britan and North America so I wouldn't expect it was Maine unless that was right close up in the pedigree.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: yuppiecowboy on November 14, 2010, 12:40:47 PM
I need to clarify something apparently. I am not even remotely an authority on what all has or has not been used in anybody's herd let alone all the herds of Canada. My point is as a casual observer over the years I have noticed that Canadian cattle as a whole maintained a beefier type more con sitant with the cattle pre Irish and Dual infusion. I stand by that.

Just for kicks, I got on the Canadian website and pedigree researched some individuals that have struck me as "my kind".

What I found, for the most part, is that I did not see much if any infusion of "flavor of the month" cattle. The Irish I did find traced to two bulls. Guinness and Irish Mist. Coincidentally these were the two bulls I had in mind when thinking of Irish bulls that were superior to Dividend. In not a single instance did I see Dividend in any of the pedigrees I looked up.

However, I did throw up in my mouth a little when I saw Saskavalley Bonanza goes back to Ayatollah many generations back. I guess that is a testament to the prepotency of the Canadian cattle otherwise found in his pedigree.

I am sure they existed, but I have never known of a Harvey Fulton or Bob Gordon cow that I wouldn't love to have. My observation is that not only are these two herds prominent in the background of cattle I appreciate, the subsequent generations tended to follow the form and function of these ancestors to my liking.

Silly part of my little research project when I certainly have better things to be doing is that there are half a dozen people on this board that actually own the animals I looked up.


Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: DRB on November 16, 2010, 12:03:34 PM
I need to clarify something apparently. I am not even remotely an authority on what all has or has not been used in anybody's herd let alone all the herds of Canada. My point is as a casual observer over the years I have noticed that Canadian cattle as a whole maintained a beefier type more con sitant with the cattle pre Irish and Dual infusion. I stand by that.

Just for kicks, I got on the Canadian website and pedigree researched some individuals that have struck me as "my kind".

What I found, for the most part, is that I did not see much if any infusion of "flavor of the month" cattle. The Irish I did find traced to two bulls. Guinness and Irish Mist. Coincidentally these were the two bulls I had in mind when thinking of Irish bulls that were superior to Dividend. In not a single instance did I see Dividend in any of the pedigrees I looked up.

However, I did throw up in my mouth a little when I saw Saskavalley Bonanza goes back to Ayatollah many generations back. I guess that is a testament to the prepotency of the Canadian cattle otherwise found in his pedigree.

I am sure they existed, but I have never known of a Harvey Fulton or Bob Gordon cow that I wouldn't love to have. My observation is that not only are these two herds prominent in the background of cattle I appreciate, the subsequent generations tended to follow the form and function of these ancestors to my liking.

Silly part of my little research project when I certainly have better things to be doing is that there are half a dozen people on this board that actually own the animals I looked up.


Out of curiousity what don't you like about Ayatollah?  (I'm not familiar with him)
Thanks
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on November 16, 2010, 12:43:48 PM
The paternal grandsire of this bull was an Appendix registered bull *AR2336 AYATOLLAH, whose sire 381178 VIKING VALLEY CHIEF, was a son of the full-blooded Illawarra shorthorn bull CEDAR VALLEY MARIO and the cow LUKEíS MASTER MANDE-EXP whose paternal grandsire was a Holstein bull and maternal grandsire was pure Illawarra.  Any an all of the descendents from CD *x3822026 would be impure.  From recent research CD *x3822026 has been the only non-native bull the Haumonts have used so far.  So if any of you who have purchased from the Haumont herd I would check your cows and see if they do have any CD *x3822026 in them.  If they do they are not pure.

not sure if this is the same ayatolla.  i think i saw him when i was younger and if it's the same bull, he was pretty tall and came around the tail end of the tall craze.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: garybob on November 16, 2010, 01:30:10 PM
The paternal grandsire of this bull was an Appendix registered bull *AR2336 AYATOLLAH, whose sire 381178 VIKING VALLEY CHIEF, was a son of the full-blooded Illawarra shorthorn bull CEDAR VALLEY MARIO and the cow LUKEíS MASTER MANDE-EXP whose paternal grandsire was a Holstein bull and maternal grandsire was pure Illawarra.  Any an all of the descendents from CD *x3822026 would be impure.  From recent research CD *x3822026 has been the only non-native bull the Haumonts have used so far.  So if any of you who have purchased from the Haumont herd I would check your cows and see if they do have any CD *x3822026 in them.  If they do they are not pure.

not sure if this is the same ayatolla.  i think i saw him when i was younger and if it's the same bull, he was pretty tall and came around the tail end of the tall craze.
from Graham Land and Livestock? That'd be the one.

GB
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: r.n.reed on November 16, 2010, 03:03:00 PM
For the record the C.D.influence was totaly removed from the Haumont herd several years ago.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Okotoks on November 16, 2010, 03:29:49 PM
Two of the major differences in the US and Canadian Shorthorn herd books are the way Illawara and Maine Anjou are treated.
In Canada the Dual Purpose( Now Milking) did not separate from the beef until this year but had been operating separately for about 6 years. The Illawara herdbook was recognized and a couple of animals with Illawara were used in the beef herds including Ayatollah. He had a major influence through a few of his offspring. These animals are all in the closed herd book.
The Maine Anjou in Canada are not recognized so a lot of US animals with Maine blood come into our herdbook at a very low percentage.(Trump is a 3/4 blood)
Years ago we decided to use a couple of straws of Ayatollah because his son Cactus Flat Ringmaster was so good.He had good muscling but would be too large for today's market. Interesting but Ringmasterís dam was a daughter of TPS Coronet Leader 21st. Of course this was long after the 21st was cool and long before he became cool again through another grandson Jakeís Proud Jazz! (not to mention a son Roanoke Flashback) The Ayatollah experience in Western Canada left some good results. He was crossed on straight beef pedigrees and the resulting offspring were fast growing well fleshed animals. Maybe these cattle were throwing back to his dam a little stronger than his offspring out of the milking pedigrees. The offspring we had that went on to breed well for us were out of two maternal sisters, one by  Weston Ablo and the other by HC Trendsetter 26K. ( I personally feel  it was the 26K bull that put the Ramsholt herd on the map, seems JITís influence was felt even before the Irish) These Ayatollah descendants had good udders, fleshing ability and above average muscling .We bought a cow from Bender's that was a double great grand daughter of Ayatollah that was a big easy fleshing cow with a really good udder. We sold one of her sons to Scotlland where he left some really good offspring. I have never seen easier births with more vigorous calves than Ayatollah's. Over the years through selection most  of his descendants now are 2 to 3 frame scores lower than back in the 80Ēs. If you say that to some people they will look at you like you just grew a third eye! Mike Dugdale maintained that the good experience we had in Canada was due to the dams. He said he should never have been used on the milkers in the US as a lot were just too hard doing. The difference in the two books means a person should do a little research to check the status in your own book.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: oakview on November 16, 2010, 04:19:19 PM
To the best of my knowledge, the Shannon Irish cattle were the only ones that traced to the old English herd book.  We were allowed to put Milking Shorthorns directly into the ASA herd book in the 70's if they traced to the original herd book that was split (into 2 divisions, milking and beef types) I believe in 1948.  It cost $850 to get a Milking Shorthorn paper for a bull 'traced and released' from the AMSS and $250 for a female.  The Milking Shorthorn cattle that did not trace to the old herd book, those with Illawarra, Red and White Holstein, etc., came into the ASA herd book at the appropriate percentage as a part of the appendix registry.  Ayatollah was one of this group.  Grahams had him on display in Denver one year and he drew quite a crowd.  I liked Columbus and Sprio at the time, but had little use for Ayatollah.  He had some performance, I think they touted a yearling weight of over 1,400 pounds, but he was downright ugly.  He had little eye appeal, muscling, soundness, fleshing ability, etc., in my opinion.  I enjoy looking at the extended pedigrees of Shorthorns and probably spend more time than I should on the ASA's website.  You would be hard pressed to find many Canadian Shorthorns, at least the ones we hear of in the states, that do not trace to Irish, Milking Shorthorns (dual purpose), and Mandalong Super Flag.  The fact that many of us like what they've done as far as maintaing fleshing ability along with other desirable traits goes to prove that results depend directly on how the ingredients are mixed.  Many of the Milking Shorthorns used in the states that I am familiar with served as improvers, many did not, and cannot be thrown conveniently into a group of either good or bad.  I used a bull, Justamere Todd, that was the first dual purpose bull to win grand champion honors at the Iowa State Fair.  That was in 1975.  He also won the Minnesota State Fair, judged by Harvey Fulton, beating the evenentual National Champion Hilltop Lancer 457 for the 2nd time.  At the later shows, Kansas City, Louisville, Chicago, and Denver, I couldn't get around Great White Hope in class.  Lancer 457 won the spring yearling class and was named champion at those shows except one when Hope was named champion. 
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: nativeman on November 16, 2010, 06:15:08 PM
Move the Irish up to 2010.  Here is a yearling full irish bull.  Calved 80+/- lbs. out of first calf heifer. Turns a year in November.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: GM on November 16, 2010, 07:03:13 PM
What's the breeding on your irish bull?
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: aj on November 17, 2010, 06:08:20 AM
Didn't 457 have dual blood or at least look like he did. I remember him being big framed.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: yuppiecowboy on November 17, 2010, 08:18:12 AM
You know Okotoks, I have heard the claim of a cow being so good you could breed her to a dead goat and she'd bring in a good one. Seems to me alot of you folks up there took that to heart and proved it.

I am a huge proponent of cow families. Every master breeder I have admired held the opinion that the only real important lineage of a pedigree is the bottom line of maternal descendants. This is why I hate heifers being named something other than the name representing their maternal line.

For the person unfamiliar with Ayatollah, he can pretty much be identified as THE height of the pendulum swing. 940 ish pound weaning weight, tremendous frame, just a monster. More than that the best way I could describe his body is like an old cowboy. skinny legs and no butt at all with a huge beer gut where you wonder how they keep their pants on. We all know "That guy", well that's how Ayatollah was built. He was after all a milking shorthorn. He was the absolute outlier of the era and was used a ton since his daughters were winning everything for a few years and his genetics polluted alot of water.

I can think of no greater testament to the breeding prepotency of your cow families than the fact that not only did you suffer no damage from using Ayatollah, you benefited from his use. You should print bumper stickers like they have at amusement parks. Instead of "I survived the killer roller coaster at 6 flags" it should say "we used ayatollah and our cows are still good"
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: oakview on November 17, 2010, 09:10:29 AM
Hilltop Lancer 457 was 100% Milking Shorthorn (dual purpose type)  Carvin Guy bought a number of Milking Shorthorn females and 457's sire, Nodak King's Tradition.  In 1975 they showed a group of 4 head that originated from the Milking Shorthorn herd that were pretty tough to beat, including Hilltop Lancer 472 that Heckendorfs in Colorado had some success with as a 2 year old.  Nodak King's Tradition (Lancer) was one of the more popular show sires of the time.  I think the herd of origin was a Schlekewy Milking Shorthorn herd in the Dakotas.  Not sure of the spelling.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: r.n.reed on November 17, 2010, 09:20:41 AM
Back in the 70's I sent my weaning weights to the Milking Society as the ASA didn't have much of a program then.Wound up with the heaviest official weaning weight one year and still have the trophy to prove it,had a 1200lb Meadowbrook cow wean a 712lb calf,nearly 60% of her body weight.Mark Graham was one of the first to congratulate me and as we talked he told me about  the 965 lb bull calf he had just weaned and named him Ayatollah since they figured he would be pretty controversial.I have often wondered where the breed would be today if the breed had pursued efficiency rather than maximum performance at any cost.The other thing I remember about that meeting was how upset everyone was because there was no milk and the creamer was non dairy at the banquet.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on November 17, 2010, 09:30:30 AM
The other thing I remember about that meeting was how upset everyone was because there was no milk and the creamer was non dairy at the banquet.

wait till they find out about that in some of today's sires.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: r.n.reed on November 17, 2010, 11:11:51 AM
The rewards of single trait selection Knabe
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Okotoks on November 17, 2010, 11:50:10 AM
You know Okotoks, I have heard the claim of a cow being so good you could breed her to a dead goat and she'd bring in a good one. Seems to me alot of you folks up there took that to heart and proved it.

I am a huge proponent of cow families. Every master breeder I have admired held the opinion that the only real important lineage of a pedigree is the bottom line of maternal descendants. This is why I hate heifers being named something other than the name representing their maternal line.

For the person unfamiliar with Ayatollah, he can pretty much be identified as THE height of the pendulum swing. 940 ish pound weaning weight, tremendous frame, just a monster. More than that the best way I could describe his body is like an old cowboy. skinny legs and no butt at all with a huge beer gut where you wonder how they keep their pants on. We all know "That guy", well that's how Ayatollah was built. He was after all a milking shorthorn. He was the absolute outlier of the era and was used a ton since his daughters were winning everything for a few years and his genetics polluted alot of water.

I can think of no greater testament to the breeding prepotency of your cow families than the fact that not only did you suffer no damage from using Ayatollah, you benefited from his use. You should print bumper stickers like they have at amusement parks. Instead of "I survived the killer roller coaster at 6 flags" it should say "we used ayatollah and our cows are still good"
I agree on cow families. The good ones always produce. We include the family name when we name heifers. We name similar to some of the old Scottish herds that gave the family name then another name for the year letter.(except in some years like x,y and z we may just use the family name if we can't come up with enough year letter names!) I often wonder what those old girls we bred Ayatollah to would have had bred to our WPS Irish Guiness 561 bull. Jill and I bought him as a calf from Gary and Janell Wilson. He was a roan son of Guiness(Deerpark Improver 2) and a Kenbar Commando's Diana cow(straight beef and polled breeding) This bull was deep thick and moderate sized. I remember showing him at Calgary where we stood foot and right above us was an Eionmor bull. Neither was anyhwere near tall enough for the times but they were good bulls. 561 left us some pretty useful daughters.Stan Pethybridge bought two of his sons Diamond Secretariat 1S and Diamond Supreme 3S and these two bulls still show up in some of the Teesalta,Gafa, Gar-Lind pedigrees 27 years later.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: garybob on November 17, 2010, 03:33:38 PM
The rewards of single trait selection Knabe
people need to see how "Beefy" cattle can be, with a shot a of the old Dual Purpose breeding. can you post a pic of your ol Pioneer bull? These folks need to see the difference between Dual and Dairy.

GB
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: r.n.reed on November 17, 2010, 03:44:22 PM
It would be hard to call this guy dairy GB
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Okotoks on November 17, 2010, 06:47:43 PM
It would be hard to call this guy dairy GB
That's a nice looking bull. He has very balanced EPD's. Way back he has a cross of Dividend. (and even goes way way back to one of those cows that crossed well with Ayatollah)
EPD's B 2.2  WW 26  YW 33 Milk 6
Is that the same Meadowbrook herd at the foundation as Meadowbrook Prince 16th came from. Would anyone have semen off those old Meadowbrook bulls?
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: r.n.reed on November 17, 2010, 07:20:55 PM
Thanks for the compliment Okotoks.The bull is linebred to my Polly cow family which came from the Meadowbrook herd the same herd that produced Prince 16th.I purchased the last cows from Clarence Forgey when he could no longer take care of them.He passed away within a month after I took the last cow, Meadowbrook Polly 8th.These individuals were extremely inbred to Meadowbrook Chieftain 9th and Polly 8th.I think I have registered close to 140 Pollys now.I spent many hours with Clarence that had a strong influence on how I built my herd.I still have a good supply of Chieftain 9th semen that I hope to reintroduce to the herd at some point.I am sure you noticed a couple doses of Diamond in Pioneer's  pedigree.I am glad they are there.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: GM on November 17, 2010, 08:15:57 PM
Who is the bull you listed?  I'd like to look up his pedigree.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: aj on November 18, 2010, 07:06:03 AM
They always told me the little elf irish guy at the Denver Bronco games......gave hook the heads up on dividend. Magically delicious! ;D
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: r.n.reed on November 18, 2010, 07:13:51 AM
GM,the bull pictured above is Wolf Ridge Pioneer P108S,X4111136
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Okotoks on November 18, 2010, 10:49:24 PM
Thanks for the compliment Okotoks.The bull is linebred to my Polly cow family which came from the Meadowbrook herd the same herd that produced Prince 16th.I purchased the last cows from Clarence Forgey when he could no longer take care of them.He passed away within a month after I took the last cow, Meadowbrook Polly 8th.These individuals were extremely inbred to Meadowbrook Chieftain 9th and Polly 8th.I think I have registered close to 140 Pollys now.I spent many hours with Clarence that had a strong influence on how I built my herd.I still have a good supply of Chieftain 9th semen that I hope to reintroduce to the herd at some point.I am sure you noticed a couple doses of Diamond in Pioneer's  pedigree.I am glad they are there.
Were the original Meadowbrook cows you purchased close up to either Meadowbrook Prince 16th or Meadowbrook Chieftain 9th. Both those bulls seem to have low BW EPD's but don't give in performance like some of the bulls from their era. It's interesting how the milking association was tracking efficiency as well as performance. It's sort of like Thomas Bates who used to keep track of butter production but alos performance and carcass traits and yet his cows were of milking type. He was doing this in the mid 1800's and again most of the people that used his genetics didn't keep track of any of it.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: r.n.reed on November 19, 2010, 07:41:08 AM
Okotoks it is ironic that the Milking society especially the state of Indiana were doing steer feedouts and collecting carcass data in the 50's and 60's while the beef Shorthorn assoc.has only made an attempt in the last decade.I have been told that the fact that a dual steer won champion carcass at Denver in 72 was what swayed the beef assoc.to open up the herd book.The Meadowbrook herd had Champion carcass at the Indiana state fair 3 years in a row sometime in the 50's,meaningless now but it shows the balance of their program.
 Meadowbrook Prince 16th had very little actual Meadowbrook breeding in him but developed from a similar foundation.Chieftain 9th had a cross section of some of the best individuals bred at Meadowbrook.As I said before the cows I purchased all had some chieftain influence except Polly 8th and her daughter by Great White Hope.Some of these were inbred to the point where there was some regression evident.The first pure outcross I used on these cattle that stayed in the herd was Eionmor Port O Call who had 3 crosses of Gafa Mohican in his pedigree.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: aj on November 19, 2010, 07:49:37 AM
I thought HUBS had some awful good cattle. Still do.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on November 19, 2010, 02:41:16 PM
If you look at very early pictures of dual or dairy shorthorns-they were big thick deep bodied cattle-sorta course versions of the irish cattle of the 70s-The Irish cattle were first and foremost dual to begin with.Deerpark leader didnt look like a scotch pony at all-Full circle-with a different twist. O0
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: scotland on November 19, 2010, 04:05:33 PM
interesting reading... SaskValley Bonanza is linebrd to Deerpark Improver 52, at least 6 crosses and to the $41,500 Crestdale Super Flag 14g and Mandalong Super Flag on yet another sire line... I am been in Ireland many many time over the years... Shorthorn origins in Ireland as early as 1800 had elite herds of Collings and later Booth cattle. At one time every sire used in Ireland was leased from Booth, remember Booths rarely sold a bull, but leased them.
The Deerpark herd was a dairy herd, I have offical milk records on some of their cows, Deerpark Kildysart 3rd reg# FNC299 born Mar 27,1960
milk reocrd started 23mar1969 7,644 lbs milk 3.90% bf in 245days. Her next record  freshing 30 Mar1970  8,120 lbs  milk 3.70% bf 245 days.

Deerpark Kilrush reg# r.e. 8755 born21May 1954
calving 17mar1958 7,359 lbs milk 3.74% bf 273days
calving 29mar 1962 8,152 lbs milk 3.74% bf 280days
calving 21 may 1963 7,297 lbs mmilk 3.64% bf 210 days
calving 5apr 19965 8,137 lbs milk 3.88% bf 252 days
calving 28apr67 5,446 lbs milk 3.88%bf 210 days
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: GM on November 19, 2010, 04:55:40 PM
interesting reading... SaskValley Bonanza is linebrd to Deerpark Improver 52, at least 6 crosses and to the $41,500 Crestdale Super Flag 14g and Mandalong Super Flag on yet another sire line... I am been in Ireland many many time over the years... Shorthorn origins in Ireland as early as 1800 had elite herds of Collings and later Booth cattle. At one time every sire used in Ireland was leased from Booth, remember Booths rarely sold a bull, but leased them.
The Deerpark herd was a dairy herd, I have offical milk records on some of their cows, Deerpark Kildysart 3rd reg# FNC299 born Mar 27,1960
milk reocrd started 23mar1969 7,644 lbs milk 3.90% bf in 245days. Her next record  freshing 30 Mar1970  8,120 lbs  milk 3.70% bf 245 days.

Deerpark Kilrush reg# r.e. 8755 born21May 1954
calving 17mar1958 7,359 lbs milk 3.74% bf 273days
calving 29mar 1962 8,152 lbs milk 3.74% bf 280days
calving 21 may 1963 7,297 lbs mmilk 3.64% bf 210 days
calving 5apr 19965 8,137 lbs milk 3.88% bf 252 days
calving 28apr67 5,446 lbs milk 3.88%bf 210 days

scotland, this is one of the most interesting posts i've read here...how'd you get milk records on deerpark cows?
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on November 19, 2010, 04:56:12 PM
By the time I got to Ireland in 1992-and went to visit Mr Quane-there were only about 10-15 cows and a group of young hiefers-several of which were black roans. The cows were real stout-and thick-moreso than the Seville-Ayatollah tailend crap Id been seeing in the US. John Mallony had some really big hiefers_that were good. But he also had a diverse group of cows-some of which were freaky small and clubby-for lack of a better description. There was a dinky bull running with them from Quane-a roan-who was as wide as he was tall.The most pretty showy cows were at Shannon. He had a young red bull-MEAN AS HELL-who remains probably the thickest butted bull for that age Ive ever seen. With that flat square rear-and wide pin settings-which I havent seen anywhere else. HE WAS THE ONE ILL REMEMBER over all the cattle Ive seen-before or siince.  The hugest cow was a Deerpark Scarlett -owned by Paddy O-Callihan-Deep-(probably @2000 plus) and huge butted. Looked alot like the cattle from the 1800s.I saw accounts from the Irish museum of a family cow-that miked and raised a calf (display animals). Beutifull moderate roan-that rivaled any maine for thickness-along with the pretty front and level top-rear. I dont feel that many of the good ones ever came here-from what I saw. O0
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on November 19, 2010, 07:40:57 PM
maine's the same way.  there is milk info on cunia's dam and a few others i have.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Davis Shorthorns on November 20, 2010, 09:59:23 AM
I thought HUBS had some awful good cattle. Still do.

I agree, I have been out there a few times this year and absolutly LOVE his cattle.  A tick bigger framed than I like but all in all just a great herd of cattle. 
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Okotoks on November 25, 2010, 03:42:51 PM
What about the sire of Deerpark Leader 13th, Deerpark Leader? How did he compare as a breeding bull?
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: oakview on November 26, 2010, 09:41:03 AM
I think it would be safe to say Deerpark Leader would be the basis for most of the Irish bulls that had an impact on American Shorthorns.  Leader 13th, Leader 18th, Leader 16th, Ultimate Type, Monopoly, Boardwalk, were all direct sons and there were countless other grandsons and granddaughters that had a major impact.  There were quite a few Improvers around, but the Leader line was far more popular in the States at the time.  Aldens had both Dividend and Improver at one time and the Dividends were far more popular in their sale and their showstring. 
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: scotland on November 30, 2010, 05:54:14 AM
the milk records I quoted previous of Deerpark Kilrush RE#8755 is the dam of Deerpark Leader. The other Deepark Kidlysart 3rd reg#fnc299 is the dam of Deerpark Leader 8 that was at an AI stud.The information was in that AI catalogue.
 In Sinclarir's book , History of Shorthorn cattle, you can read about the early Iish herds, mainly started by the rich English land barons, chapter xII, pages 507-577.  What North America got when the Irish cattle arrived was much of the old Booth type of yesteryear, much the same that was imported to North America with the settlers... 'the farmer's cow' as they adverts use to read.
 Previous someone had queried the Irish shorthorn color, red necked roans and light roans, all part of the color fabric of Shorthorns. North America seems to have the color craze still in their eye.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: justintime on November 30, 2010, 08:43:34 AM
There were a few of the better Irish cattle that did make it to North America, especially near the start of the Irish importations. We imported the second set of Irish Shorthorns just a few weeks after BGR brought the first ones to Mankato, KS. We did not know about the cattle that had been imported by BGR until we had finalized our deal in Ireland. When we found out there were other Irish cattle in North America, we immediately headed to Kansas to see them. It was a very rememberable trip as we stopped at HUB Shorthorns as well and got to see this excellent herd. We also saw all the cattle BGR had imported. Johnny Hook was working at BGR at this time.

When we were selecting our cattle in Ireland, we were allowed to purchase any of the calves on the cows but we were only allowed to select a few of the females in production( and the prices were considerably higher than for the open females). We felt that Highfield Irish Mist was the best bull calf of his year in Ireland, and his mother Highfield Una, was amongst the very best females in that country. We purchased Irish Mist for $300 Canadian. We also selected the two females that we considered were the best there. They cost us $500 each. During the quarantine in Ireland, we were told that the females we had selected had failed their health tests. We were suspicious that the Kevin Culhane ( who seemed to have total control of all the breeders in that country, and had the final say into which animals could be sold and which could not) had decided that they were not going to leave Ireland. We  told him that we would not accept the replacement females that he had selected, and after several negotiations with him, our original heifers suddenly " miraculously" passed their health tests and were able to come to Canada. They were quarantined for 2 months in Ireland and then were quarantined for 2 months at a quarantine station on an island in the St Lawrence River in Quebec, then an additional 2 months at a quarantine station near the Edmonton airport. Despite 6 months of quarantine, our total cost in importing Irish Mist was $2000 including his purchase price. The two females cost us $2200 each so we had $6400 wrapped up in bringing these cattle to Canada. Probably one of the best decisions we ever made!  Two years later, American breeders were bringing plane loads over. The Irish breeders caught on fast. When we imported our second bull three years later, ( IDS Duke of Dublin) the purchase price was $25,000 and it cost us an additional $7000 to get him on Canadian soil. The following January, we displayed Duke of Dublin in front of the Exchange Building in the yards at Denver. During the week we were at the show, we got semen orders for more than what we had invested in him.

A few years later, when the importation of Irish cattle had slowed down substantially, John Maloney ( Highfield Shorthorns) phoned me one evening. He told me that he was in trouble with his banker, and that he needed to raise some money to pay him off. He offered me a deal where I could select 70 females from his herd and I could select from his entire herd except for 2 females. He said he would be willing to sell my pick of 70 females at $1500 Canadian dollars each. At first I told him, that I could not do this deal, but a few days later I started to think more about it. I contacted the owner of Flying Tigers Airlines from New York City, who specialized in transporting livestock around the world, and he said he would bring an entire planeload of these cattle to Edmonton Alberta for $32,000. With quarantine costs included, I was looking at $2200 per female. I decided to make some phone calls and see if it would be possible to sell some of these females to pay for some of the ones I wanted. After 3 nights on the phone, I had committments from several breeders for about 25 of these females at $ 4500 each. That left me with 45 females for a cost of $41,500. This sounded like a workable deal so I started making arrangements to fly to Ireland to select the 70 head of cattle. Before I had even got to the point of getting my plane ticket booked, I heard a rumor that  Ireland was having some major issues with Brucellosis. I made some phone calls and after getting some vague answers, I decided to wait and not proceed with this deal. I just had a bad feeling from what I was being told. That was also one of the best decisions I ever made as the Highfield herd was quarantined within a couple months, and most of it ended up going to slaughter because of there being many brucellosis positive females. I think I would have had a real mess on my hands if I had got into the middle of this deal and found out that I owned a plane load of brucellosis carriers!  
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: justintime on November 30, 2010, 09:19:52 AM
In regards to some of the Irish Shorthorns not blood typing to typical Shorthorn blood types, I spoke with the head of the Blood Typing lab from Ohio State at the Graham Land and Livestock dispersal in Minnesota. He said that many of the Irish cattle had totally different blood types than any other cattle of any breed. Some had blood types closer to full blood Maines and there were some full blood Maines that bloodtyped as typical purebred Shprthorns.He told me that at that time there were 7 imported Maine Anjou bulls that blood typed with 100% typical Shorthorn blood types. He said that there was absolutely no way they could tell if they were Shorthorn or Maine by the blood type.  I remember him saying that Dividend's blood type was very strange as it was very close to some horse blood types.It was totally non typical to any other bovine blood types they had seen at that time. These cattle were indeed very strange in many ways. This is why we argued to keep the Irish cattle in the appendix herd books and the Canadian breeders voted to put them in the closed herd books. I find it ironic that the people who imported these cattle were the only people who voted against putting the Irish cattle into the closed herd book . When this happened, I decided that it really did not matter whether an animal had an asterisk on it's pedigree or not as they were probably as pure or purer than many cattle in the closed herd books.

Another reason I felt that the Irish cattle should stay in the appendix herd book was simply because the Irish breeders had very little idea of what the pedigrees of these cattle were. There are lots of stories of Americans buying cattle in Ireland and the head of the Coates herd book hand writing out a pedigree for the cattle that were purchased. Personally, I saw many examples of this. On one occasion, I asked 3 Irish Breeders about the pedigree of a certain Irish animal, and I got three completely different pedigrees.I asked John Maloney on different occasions what some of his females were sired by, and he would say he would have to check with Kevin Culhane and find out who it was. Kevin Culhane had his own herd, but he seemed to be the "official" spokesman for several herds especially the Deerpark and Highfield herds.  They could not even keep their records straight as there were three females named Highfield Kate 3rd. One was one of our original cows, another was in the Lazy D herd in Missouri, and one stayed in Ireland.  Up until this time, I always thought the Coates herd book was the official "bible" for several of the British breeds. I found out it was not as "official" as I once thought.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLEPICTURE FROM IRELAND
Post by: scotland on December 01, 2010, 12:18:50 PM
atttached a picture of Deerpark Leader 12th, big white bull, taken  after he won the Royal Dublin show in 1976, he would sire Moyglare President that was sent to the great Perth sale in 1978 topped it at 1400gns..... the other cattle  pictured  wil be true dairy Shorthorns , many pure Bates bred .
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE-picutre
Post by: scotland on December 01, 2010, 12:25:44 PM
sorry for the mess up .. here's the picture... couple of the heifers are also from Deerpark
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: r.n.reed on December 01, 2010, 12:59:25 PM
Thanks for putting up that picture Scotland.The 12th sure looks like he fell off a different branch than most of the Irish cattle I have seen.
 Justintime,Interesting comment on Dividends blood type being horse like.Tim Ohlde told me the Quane's had some fine Thoroughbreds,Do you think?
I also agree that most people have a very loose definition of what appendix free means.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Okotoks on December 01, 2010, 01:19:54 PM
That is a good looking white bull!
In the mid 80's when Maine Anjou were being promoted for acceptance in the CSA herd book my wife, Jill did some resarch. In talking to some very recognized people at bloodtyping labs she was informed that Maine Anjou and Shorthorn had almost identical blood groups and in may cases it would be impossible to discern the difference.(Since the original Maine Anjou had about 66% shorthorn contribution to it's makeup this makes some sense) The blood types of Shorthorn and Salers were very different. It was also mentioned that some Angus bulls had blood groups that had only been found in Holstein but the influence of the bulls involved was so great the Angus Association chose to ignore the results of the bulls in question.
I personally don't think Dividend's blood type being horselike would be a scientific observation! ???
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: jaimiediamond on December 01, 2010, 02:22:42 PM
Genetically speaking Equines and Bovines don't have many notable markers that are similar at all.  If Dividend was a anonomaly he would have been used as a genetic example.

Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: r.n.reed on December 01, 2010, 02:55:45 PM
I remember being shown a pamphlet produced by the Irish ag society I believe that explained the Irish ''scheme'' to revitalize shorthorn in Ireland.The plan was to use the predominately dairy Shorthorns of Ireland as a base and introduce Red and White Holstein,Simmental, Meuse Rhein Issel [I hope I spelled that right]which was explained as a German branch of the Maine Anjou breed.I saw this in the 70's but couldn't tell you at what point it was implemented but it could help explain the variation in blood types.Maybe we should ad asterisks to all the pedigrees that have Irish in them that are being touted as pure.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: oakview on December 01, 2010, 03:35:24 PM
I also heard about an Irish bull that had a blood type more typical to horses.  When I visited the Lazy D herd in 1982, picking out Lazy D Ultimate Type, Richard Dolginow offered me the opportunity to use a bull named Leprocaun (sp?)  He was of Improver descent, and was white with a black nose.  His skin also appeared to be of darker pigmentation than I was used to in a white bull.  Richard and his herdsman, Larry, both told me that his blood type had come back non-typical with a comment that it was similar to a blood type generally found in horses.  Strange, I know, but that's what I was told.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Okotoks on December 01, 2010, 03:43:53 PM
I also heard about an Irish bull that had a blood type more typical to horses.  When I visited the Lazy D herd in 1982, picking out Lazy D Ultimate Type, Richard Dolginow offered me the opportunity to use a bull named Leprocaun (sp?)  He was of Improver descent, and was white with a black nose.  His skin also appeared to be of darker pigmentation than I was used to in a white bull.  Richard and his herdsman, Larry, both told me that his blood type had come back non-typical with a comment that it was similar to a blood type generally found in horses.  Strange, I know, but that's what I was told.
Would this be the bull? LAZY D MAGIC LEPRECHAUN 3740465, white born July 7, 1981 by Deerpark Improver 19th out of Deerpark Cocked Horns 4th.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: oakview on December 01, 2010, 03:45:09 PM
The old mind isn't completely gone!  The white bull's name I previously mentioned was Lazy D Magic Leprechaun, sold by Lazy D to Lippert Family Shorthorns of Beatrice, Nebraska, according to the ASA website.  He was a double bred Improver, pretty good bull, just a little different.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: oakview on December 01, 2010, 03:46:11 PM
Yep, that's the one.  You evidently were posting while I was.  Do you remember him the same way I do?
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Okotoks on December 01, 2010, 03:55:57 PM
Yep, that's the one.  You evidently were posting while I was.  Do you remember him the same way I do?
No, I didn't ever see the bull. I did follow the breeding at Lazy D for a while as I thought they produced some top breeding animals. Shadybrook brought Lazy D Deerpark Ruth up to Canada and for some reason the cattle were sent through Alberta and spent a couple of days at our place. Lazy D Deerpark Ruth was a daughter of Deerpark Leader and out of Hillrock E Ruth. This was one of the best cows I have ever seen. Later we bought her daughter from Shadybrook. She was by SRS Instant Replay and bred to Marc 1V. The Marc 1V daughter was Grand Champion at Agribition for JIT after he bought her from us earlier that fall.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: GM on December 01, 2010, 07:58:04 PM
What happened to the Irish shorthorns in Ireland?  It seems like they disappeared.  I remember Iceway promoting the Kilkelly Duke bull in the early 90's, the Improvers made a comeback prior to TH mid to late 90's, but you never hear anything about Irish cattle anymore unless is Dividend or Improver.  I guess the legend and mystique will live forever. (for Shorthorn enthusiasts anyways)

I have a 2009 semen catalogue from Ireland.  Most of the bulls are listed here http://www.irishshorthorns.com/index.php/breeding/beef-bulls (http://www.irishshorthorns.com/index.php/breeding/beef-bulls)

The best bulls listed in their sire summary are Canadian.  Other than that I'd probably need to see all the Irish bulls in person to make a selection because the pics and info is very limited.  Judging by the picture I'd probably go with Malton Zenith or Chapelton Liberty.  There is no more semen on Deerpark Furty (at least that's what I was told)

This is an interesting thread.  Thanks to everyone who's contributing.  I enjoy reading about this topic.

GM
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: coyote on December 01, 2010, 09:41:00 PM
That sure is a differant looking white bull compared to the other Irish cattle.  How could he survive, without being able to reach to the bottom of a 5 gallon pail? ;)

JIT do you have any pictures of Master Charge's Sire, DEERPARK IMPROVER 52, If memory serves me right, he was a more moderate thicker bull.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: justintime on December 01, 2010, 10:46:55 PM
That sure is a differant looking white bull compared to the other Irish cattle.  How could he survive, without being able to reach to the bottom of a 5 gallon pai? ;)

JIT do you have any pictures of Master Charge's Sire, DEERPARK IMPROVER 52, If memory serves me right, he was a more moderate thicker bull.




We selected Deerpark Improver 52 for Huber's when we purchased IDS Duke of Dublin in Ireland. Improver 52nd was a full brother to Improver 57th, and I suspect that he was also TH free. The reason I say this is that several descendants of the 52nd, including some daughters, were TH tested and all came back TH free. The 52nd was considered the best bull calf in the Deerpark herd that year. I do not have a picture of the 52nd, but I may be able to get one from Huber's. He was moderate framed and one of the longest bodied bulls I ever saw. He sired excellent offspring of both sexes. His daughters were simply awesome cows and I certainly wish I had collected more of them. There was never any semen collected on Improver 52 as he would not freeze properly, yet I never have heard of any of his sons having this problem.  I think the set of Improver 52 daughters that Huber's had several years ago, were about as good a set of females I have ever seen. Moderate framed, feminine, thick made, and great uddered with lots of milk.
I was offered Improver 52 for $2000 after Huber's had used him for about 4 years, but we still were running 4 full Irish herd sires ( Highfield Irish Mist, Duke of Dublin, Sandy Creek Ivor, CCS Drover) as well as Waukaru Cinnabar, Ellsway Chieftain ( a super Columbus son), Ready Go and Weston Secretariat. I was not really needing another herd bull, so I turned him down. After seeing how his offspring have done, I soon realized that was a mistake.

IMO, Deerpark Improver 52nd was one of the greatest breeding bulls ever to come from Ireland. It is unfortunate he never got to be used in more herds, or that no semen was ever able to be collected on him. His influence still lives on through some of his offspring like Huberdale Mastercharge. The Saskvalley herd is steeped in Mastercharge influence. Our herdsire, Saskvalley Pioneer has 7 crosses of Mastercharge, 7 crosses of Irish Mist and 4 crosses of Super Flag in his pedigree, if you go back several generations.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: garybob on December 02, 2010, 03:04:07 PM
That sure is a differant looking white bull compared to the other Irish cattle.  How could he survive, without being able to reach to the bottom of a 5 gallon pail? ;)

JIT do you have any pictures of Master Charge's Sire, DEERPARK IMPROVER 52, If memory serves me right, he was a more moderate thicker bull.

The white bull? Ain't he on the "dairy sires" page? Relax.

GB
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: DRB on December 02, 2010, 03:27:27 PM
What happened to the Irish shorthorns in Ireland?  It seems like they disappeared.  I remember Iceway promoting the Kilkelly Duke bull in the early 90's, the Improvers made a comeback prior to TH mid to late 90's, but you never hear anything about Irish cattle anymore unless is Dividend or Improver.  I guess the legend and mystique will live forever. (for Shorthorn enthusiasts anyways)

I have a 2009 semen catalogue from Ireland.  Most of the bulls are listed here [url]http://www.irishshorthorns.com/index.php/breeding/beef-bulls[/url] ([url]http://www.irishshorthorns.com/index.php/breeding/beef-bulls[/url])

The best bulls listed in their sire summary are Canadian.  Other than that I'd probably need to see all the Irish bulls in person to make a selection because the pics and info is very limited.  Judging by the picture I'd probably go with Malton Zenith or Chapelton Liberty.  There is no more semen on Deerpark Furty (at least that's what I was told)

This is an interesting thread.  Thanks to everyone who's contributing.  I enjoy reading about this topic.

GM


The Chapelton and Tofts bulls are from Scotland or England right?
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Okotoks on December 02, 2010, 03:35:08 PM
What happened to the Irish shorthorns in Ireland?  It seems like they disappeared.  I remember Iceway promoting the Kilkelly Duke bull in the early 90's, the Improvers made a comeback prior to TH mid to late 90's, but you never hear anything about Irish cattle anymore unless is Dividend or Improver.  I guess the legend and mystique will live forever. (for Shorthorn enthusiasts anyways)

I have a 2009 semen catalogue from Ireland.  Most of the bulls are listed here [url]http://www.irishshorthorns.com/index.php/breeding/beef-bulls[/url] ([url]http://www.irishshorthorns.com/index.php/breeding/beef-bulls[/url])

The best bulls listed in their sire summary are Canadian.  Other than that I'd probably need to see all the Irish bulls in person to make a selection because the pics and info is very limited.  Judging by the picture I'd probably go with Malton Zenith or Chapelton Liberty.  There is no more semen on Deerpark Furty (at least that's what I was told)

This is an interesting thread.  Thanks to everyone who's contributing.  I enjoy reading about this topic.

GM


The Chapelton and Tofts bulls are from Scotland or England right?


Chapelton and Tofts are both Scottish herds. They have both imported embryos from Canada, some of the embryos were sired by American bulls.
Does anyone have photos of Deerpark Improver2nd (Guinness) or Deerpark Improver 3 that they could post? Improver 2nd was one of my favourite Irish bulls.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: scotland on December 03, 2010, 07:14:25 AM
hey DRB, Chapelton Liberty is from pre foot and mouth era, like most UK Shorthorns then , about 50% MA and 50% Shorthorn, the current Chapelton herd is all from  embyro project I put together for Mr Biggar... 28 donor cows and 12 sires... the best breeding bull in the UK is probably Chapelton Typhoon , http://www.chapeltonfarm.co.uk/home.html, (http://www.chapeltonfarm.co.uk/home.html,) also did their AA project. A number of these emybro bulls are now working in Ireland
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: scotland on December 03, 2010, 07:57:18 AM
picture of Deerpark Improver 52 taken from a Huberdale farm ad in the Shorthorn news...1985
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: justintime on December 03, 2010, 08:29:16 AM
Rollie, I remember that picture, and it was taken at the end of the breeding season when he was a two year old so he was about 2.5 years old. There is another picture when he was 4 or 5 years old that shows him as a mature bull. I remember talking to Roger Hunsley after he visited Saskvalley and he saw the set of Mastercharge ( a son of Improver 52) two year old females on pasture. He told me that they were the best set of two year old females he had ever seen in any breed.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: garybob on December 03, 2010, 02:52:11 PM
hey DRB, Chapelton Liberty is from pre foot and mouth era, like most UK Shorthorns then , about 50% MA and 50% Shorthorn, the current Chapelton herd is all from  embyro project I put together for Mr Biggar... 28 donor cows and 12 sires... the best breeding bull in the UK is probably Chapelton Typhoon , [url]http://www.chapeltonfarm.co.uk/home.html,[/url] ([url]http://www.chapeltonfarm.co.uk/home.html,[/url]) also did their AA project. A number of these emybro bulls are now working in Ireland
That "Cavans Yankee" looks a lot more Shorthorn than Maine.....I like his looks.

GB
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: scotland on December 03, 2010, 03:24:17 PM
some pics of  guiness, and elbee, ayatollah... did you realize that the roan cattle in the orginal Irish pic I posted are from  Ballingarrrane, could be one of them is a Lilac the dam of the great Shannon Margie
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: jaimiediamond on December 03, 2010, 03:28:00 PM
 
some pics of  guiness, and elbee, ayatollah... did you realize that the roan cattle in the orginal Irish pic I posted are from  Ballingarrrane, could be one of them is a Lilac the dam of the great Shannon Margie
I had just dug out a picture of Ayatollah as a mature bull for the sires of the past topic I was working on

Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: oakview on December 03, 2010, 04:41:28 PM
Tony Shultz of Iowa purchased Improver 3rd, I think at the Irish Sale from BGR after they were imported, along with a few Irish cows.  One of those cows produced Irish Pride, sire of Double Stuff, when mated to Improver 3rd.  From there, the 3rd went to Kansas.  Tony could probably tell you a little about him.  I was personally not a fan of Guiness.  He was reputed to be a cow killer by some at the time.  We had several calves sired by him and they were a little too 3-piece for me.  The calves we had by him were larger than the other Irish calves we had over the years by Ultimate Type, Leader 18th, Duke of Dublin, Leggs, and Quane.  I have a young full Irish Leader 18th cow that I would like to flush someday to Duke of Dublin or Quane. 
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: GM on December 03, 2010, 10:14:57 PM
Tony Shultz of Iowa purchased Improver 3rd, I think at the Irish Sale from BGR after they were imported, along with a few Irish cows.  One of those cows produced Irish Pride, sire of Double Stuff, when mated to Improver 3rd.  From there, the 3rd went to Kansas.  Tony could probably tell you a little about him.  I was personally not a fan of Guiness.  He was reputed to be a cow killer by some at the time.  We had several calves sired by him and they were a little too 3-piece for me.  The calves we had by him were larger than the other Irish calves we had over the years by Ultimate Type, Leader 18th, Duke of Dublin, Leggs, and Quane.  I have a young full Irish Leader 18th cow that I would like to flush someday to Duke of Dublin or Quane. 

what does "they were a little too 3-piece for me. " mean?  just curious...I've seen a few Guiness calves and they never reall impressed me...at weaning they were all head, horns, sheath and minimal hips.  They did look better as mature cows though.  The bulls never made it to that age.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Doc on December 04, 2010, 08:05:24 AM
 The Guiness dtrs made good mommas, especially when crossed on "US" bulls. The bull that made the most money on dtrs was Prime Time. I had a Prime Time dtr out of the Robin R180 cow that flushed tremendous for me & produced 2 div. winners at Jr Natl's. I had another PT dtr that was full Irish out a Scarlet cow.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: aj on December 04, 2010, 08:14:38 AM
Wasn't there a deal where a whole semen jug of Ayatollah was stolen in Lousiville or Denver or somewhere? Seems likean ad was run in the Shorthorn country about it. I always wondered.......if somewhere........there was a commercial herd........of 2100# black cows...........and the ole guy saying..........man...........that cheap shorthorn semen I bought sure did produce some big cows. ;D
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: aj on December 04, 2010, 08:26:02 AM
And wasn't this about the time that Pinedrive Big Sky was born? ;D
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on December 04, 2010, 09:22:25 AM
And wasn't this about the time that Pinedrive Big Sky was born? ;D

pdbs is one bull i would like genotyped.  some people laughed when he came out.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: GM on December 04, 2010, 11:36:33 AM
And wasn't this about the time that Pinedrive Big Sky was born? ;D

pdbs is one bull i would like genotyped.  some people laughed when he came out.

What's the story on Pinedrive Big Sky?  I remember he was huge.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Okotoks on December 04, 2010, 12:32:21 PM
hey DRB, Chapelton Liberty is from pre foot and mouth era, like most UK Shorthorns then , about 50% MA and 50% Shorthorn, the current Chapelton herd is all from  embyro project I put together for Mr Biggar... 28 donor cows and 12 sires... the best breeding bull in the UK is probably Chapelton Typhoon , [url]http://www.chapeltonfarm.co.uk/home.html,[/url] ([url]http://www.chapeltonfarm.co.uk/home.html,[/url]) also did their AA project. A number of these emybro bulls are now working in Ireland
That "Cavans Yankee" looks a lot more Shorthorn than Maine.....I like his looks.

GB

Below is a pdigree for Cavans Yankee. I'm pretty proud of the fact he carries two crosses of the Diamond bulls that MajorJohn Gibb, Glenisla imported from us. Yankee is 7/8 shorthorn and 1/8 maine(maine fullblood)In Canada he would be 7/8 in the US he would 31/32. The Diamond Xerxes 8X bull shows up in a lot of UK pedigrees including one of the growth rate trait leaders. It is interesting that 8X was by Deer Trail Private Eye, a son of Deer Trail Goliath in turn by Guinness( Deerpark Improver2). we used one son and two grandsons of Guinness (both by Goliath) and it really worked for us. Calving ease was never an issue and the pelvic size of his descendants was huge. We had a call from a local Angus breeder who had photos of Yankee and was very impressed.
                             NORVYK MACBRIDE 52B (P) #X-462862 (100%)
             DIAMOND FORTUNE (P) (IMP CA) #X-M465929 (100%)
                            DIAMOND AMANDA MAID 12A (H) #F657860 (100%)
   Sire: GLENISLA RANNOCH R030 (P) #UK540307-700030-48 (97.65%)
                            DIAMOND XERXES 8X (P) (IMP CA) #DAN 8X.36 (100%)
             GLENISLA FOXGLOVE TANSY J52 (P) #GJP J52.41 (95.31%)
                            GLENISLA FOXGLOVE TANSY D3 (P) #GJP D3.37 (90.62%)
Animal: CAVANS YANKEE Y838 (H) #523800652  
                            TOFTS ROMANY (H) #RRJ E04.38 (56.25%)
            CHAPELTON MASTERKEY (H) #K0200-01900-44 (75%)
                            CHAPELTON BROADHOOKS H1 (P) #BID H1.40 (93.75%)
   Dam: CAVANS PRINCESS ROYAL (H) #523524-300004-47 (78.12%)
                            BALMYLE ZEPHYR (H) (ET) #BPW Z32FOT.33 (62.5%)
             CAVANS WATERLOO CLARISSA (H) #TCT C19.37 (81.25%)
                            CAVANS PRINCESS ANNETTE (H) #TCT X5.31 (100%)

Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on December 04, 2010, 12:48:34 PM
And wasn't this about the time that Pinedrive Big Sky was born? ;D

pdbs is one bull i would like genotyped.  some people laughed when he came out.

What's the story on Pinedrive Big Sky?  I remember he was huge.

so were chi's, maine's, holsteins and who knows what else.  doesn't mean he was, just that i'd like to see a dna profile of him and his parents.  there is only bloodtyping on file for his parents, though there is a snp file on file for him which would only help prove his descendants, not his parents.  still, i would like to see the bloodtyping on both parents.  we have to take the associations word for these files.

i have one calf who the sire was unknown and 6 or 7 sires were listed as rule outs.

in other words, a descendant can't normally have a marker that both parents don't have.  they could lose one easier than they could gain one.  gaining one would indicate something might be fishy.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Okotoks on December 04, 2010, 01:14:58 PM
hey DRB, Chapelton Liberty is from pre foot and mouth era, like most UK Shorthorns then , about 50% MA and 50% Shorthorn, the current Chapelton herd is all from  embyro project I put together for Mr Biggar... 28 donor cows and 12 sires... the best breeding bull in the UK is probably Chapelton Typhoon , [url]http://www.chapeltonfarm.co.uk/home.html,[/url] ([url]http://www.chapeltonfarm.co.uk/home.html,[/url]) also did their AA project. A number of these emybro bulls are now working in Ireland


Here is Typhoon's pedigree.he actually has more US blood than Canadian. If you go back to the Blue Ridge Patience 10X cow her sire is Blue Ridge Impression by Ayatollah. Ayatollah often appears in the background of heavy muscled animals, no idea why!

                               PHILDON CUNIA DIVIDEND (H) #*XAR20454 (50%)
                       CF TRUMP X (P) #*X3909231 (75%)
                              CARMELE NG 158X (P) #*X3881362 (100%)
       Sire: CF VARSITY X (P) (IMP semen US #(USA)*4019565 (81.3%)
                               CF FORTUNE (H) #(USA)*3961594 (87.5%)
                  CF PROUD FOOL 830 FT X (P) #X-(USA)*3991235 (87.5%)
                               CF PROUD FOOL 673 TB (P) #X-(USA)*3966754 (87.5%)
Animal: CHAPELTON TYPHOON (P) (ET) #493801125 
                                   CCS STERLING X (P) #X US3867748 (100%)
                       CCS STERLING 11 (CAN) (P) #X-*2236 (100%)
                                   WC ROSEANN 8916 (P) #X-[US]*3854717 
     Dam: BLUE RIDGE CHEERLEADER 29E (P) #X-*3786 (100%)
                                 STRATHORE IRISH MAGIC 1W (H) #M458174 (100%)
                       BLUE RIDGE BABY PATIENCE 56A (H) #F657240 (100%)
                                 BLUE RIDGE PATIENCE 10X (H) #F649609 (100%)

Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: justintime on December 05, 2010, 08:31:52 AM
hey DRB, Chapelton Liberty is from pre foot and mouth era, like most UK Shorthorns then , about 50% MA and 50% Shorthorn, the current Chapelton herd is all from  embyro project I put together for Mr Biggar... 28 donor cows and 12 sires... the best breeding bull in the UK is probably Chapelton Typhoon , [url]http://www.chapeltonfarm.co.uk/home.html,[/url] ([url]http://www.chapeltonfarm.co.uk/home.html,[/url]) also did their AA project. A number of these emybro bulls are now working in Ireland


Here is Typhoon's pedigree.he actually has more US blood than Canadian. If you go back to the Blue Ridge Patience 10X cow her sire is Blue Ridge Impression by Ayatollah. Ayatollah often appears in the background of heavy muscled animals, no idea why!

                               PHILDON CUNIA DIVIDEND (H) #*XAR20454 (50%)
                       CF TRUMP X (P) #*X3909231 (75%)
                              CARMELE NG 158X (P) #*X3881362 (100%)
       Sire: CF VARSITY X (P) (IMP semen US #(USA)*4019565 (81.3%)
                               CF FORTUNE (H) #(USA)*3961594 (87.5%)
                  CF PROUD FOOL 830 FT X (P) #X-(USA)*3991235 (87.5%)
                               CF PROUD FOOL 673 TB (P) #X-(USA)*3966754 (87.5%)
Animal: CHAPELTON TYPHOON (P) (ET) #493801125  
                                   CCS STERLING X (P) #X US3867748 (100%)
                       CCS STERLING 11 (CAN) (P) #X-*2236 (100%)
                                   WC ROSEANN 8916 (P) #X-[US]*3854717  
     Dam: BLUE RIDGE CHEERLEADER 29E (P) #X-*3786 (100%)
                                 STRATHORE IRISH MAGIC 1W (H) #M458174 (100%)
                       BLUE RIDGE BABY PATIENCE 56A (H) #F657240 (100%)
                                 BLUE RIDGE PATIENCE 10X (H) #F649609 (100%)






There are two other animals in the pedigree of Chapelton Typhoon that suggest heavier muscling to me. The first is WC Roseann 8916. Roseann was a Rodeo Drive daughter and a very good one. She had an unique ability to add extra muscling to her offspring. Don Cagwin mentioned this when he had her, as every calf she had went on to add muscle to her calves. David Ragsdale, Sutherland Farms, purchased Roseanne from Cagwin's and she did the same thing there. David has told me that her calves were some of the heaviest muscled he ever raised. CCS Marc Drive, our herd sire several years ago, also possessed this trait. While Marc Drive was not heavily muscled himself, his offspring all had more muscle. Marc Drive was a son of WC Roseanne 8916.The odd part was that while they had additional muscling, it was very smooth muscling and his daughters were very maternal with super udders, milked well, and were very fertile. Three of our first donors were Marc Drive daughters and while they had the extra muscling, they were outstanding maternal cows. These three donors were all exceptional producers and we sold embryos to 6 countries from them. I have attached a picture of HC Melba Niam 98H, one of my favorite Marc Drive daughters.

The second animal in this pedigree that suggests extra muscling, is Strathore Irish Magic 1W. I was at Lorne Pimmett's farm at Peterborough, Ontario on April 18th,1987, the day Irish Magic was born. He was an amazing calf at birth, and his mother was probably in the top few females I have ever seen. I tried to buy the pair that day, but Lorne had a huge price tag on them so I left them alone. He showed tremendous thickness and style at day 1. I have often said that the real good ones look good from day 1 on, and this calf had "the look".
There have been lots and lots of stories that Irish Magic was part Maine, and I have heard oftentimes that he was sired by a Maine bull, which would have made him a half blood. I don't know about that, and expect it is totally rumour. His sire ( on paper anyways) was GS Irish Sweepstakes, who was a horned Dividend son that Hoyt and Sons purchased in Denver from The Greeley family in Iowa. IMO, Irish Sweepstakes is a bull that was totally overlooked simply because he was a horned bull. Quite frankly, I think he was an outstanding sire and I don't ever remember seeing a poor Irish Sweepstakes calf. I think there is still semen from Irish Sweepstakes around and I would suggest that he could sire some cattle that would be super popular today. Last time I checked there was still a bunch of Irish Sweepstakes stored at Alta Genetics. The main reason I dispel the talk of Irish Magic being half Maine, is because Irish Sweepstakes was capable of siring calves that looked like this.

I do not totally dismiss the possibility of there being some Maine blood flowing through Irish Magic's viens, as there was another story floating around that his dam, Strathore Mystic Marvel, was a halfblood Maine cow. Lorne Pimmett's brother, Murray, told me a few times that Mystic Rosewood was a daughter of Covino 111. Again, I consider this heresay, as I can not prove it, but when I think about this female, she does look much like the Covino 111 daughters I had in both body type and color. Murray Pimmett was an excellent cattleman, and he was also a student of pedigrees, and he also knew his brother's herd very well. At this point in time, I don't really care if there was Maine in Irish Magic's pedigree or not. It simply doesn't matter at this time. As far as I am concerned, if he does have some Maine blood, he is just another animal that slipped into the closed herdbook that was not truely purebred. There are lots and lots of them. In any event, Strathore Mystic Rosewood was a truely amazing female. She may have been a bit big by today's standards as she weighed over 1800 lbs when mature ( another reason I think there could have been some truth to the Maine theory as her sire rather than Winalot Myth).

I also agree to the comment about Ayatollah being in the background of some heavy muscled animals. I have seen this many times, and have wondered about this. Guess that is a part of what makes genetics so amazing and so interesting. Sometimes, the best animals in an era, have animals in their backgrounds that were cursed in their own era!As I have said many times, on SP, a direct Ayatollah daughter ranks in my list of top 10 females I have ever seen. She had amazing thickness and depth and was very easy fleshing.

I will also say that I prefer Cavens Yankee over Chapelton Typhoon but I would not doubt that Typhoon is breeding better with the British females. Okotoks, I will also say that some of the cattle I liked the best in Scotland had one or both Diamond bulls in their pedigrees. I have also attached a picture of two full sisters that have both of these bulls in their pedigrees.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: E6 Durhams on December 05, 2010, 09:19:03 AM
The yankee bull would appear to be the better bull for me.
I was given some IWF Magic? semen awhile back. I never used it or researched it. I was told to save it and down the road use it on my best cows. Is he sired by Strathore Irish magic? What is the storry on IWF Magic if I am sayin his name right.

IMO the Typhoon bull looks HUGE and looks like a high input bull. Different strokes for different folks. He should sire some growth I would think :o That would be a perfect example of a terminal shorthorn bull.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: scotland on December 05, 2010, 05:50:35 PM
the Cavans bull is a frame score  taller than Typhoon.. at Chapelton there are only a couple of  British cows all the the show winners and high seller come form the North American embyro project i did for them. Typhonon sones have sold publicly for 16,000pounds... he leaves his cattle with demension and shape , very good muscle and yield...
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: JTM on December 05, 2010, 10:38:57 PM
I just got done spending an hour reading through all of these threads. I remember most of the bulls being mentioned from when I first got into shorthorns and studied the pedigrees. My wifes family have been involved in Maines since they came into the country and I always get to hear about the conspiracy theories about the Shorthorns and Maines mixing. I remember a couple of the bulls that kept coming up in my pedigree searches through some of the accomplished females were Ransom G Nine, Marc IV, Clark, Columbus,(these might have been raised close to me in Ohio?) and of course the Deerpark Improvers and Leaders. Even though I didn't grow up around cattle, I love this stuff and it has been very entertaining! Thanks everyone for sharing!
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: oakview on December 06, 2010, 09:56:16 AM
Ransom and Marc IV were raised by R. Lee Johnson of Ohio.  Clark and Columbus were raised by Graham Land and Livestock in Minnesota.  In reard to my eariler comment that the Guiness calves we had were a little three pieced, I meant they appeared to be divided into sections, head and neck, shoulders, and rear end and none of the parts fit together smoothly. 
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: E6 Durhams on December 06, 2010, 11:08:38 AM
R Lee Johnson lives 20 minutes or so from me. If anybody wants to ask him about this stuff, he loves to still talk cattle. He is still listed in the Ohio Shorthorn Breeders assoc that comes out in the July issue each year. He still has a few cows he tinkers with and has a room in his barn filled with old banners and pics. Really neat to see.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Okotoks on December 07, 2010, 02:43:47 PM
R Lee Johnson lives 20 minutes or so from me. If anybody wants to ask him about this stuff, he loves to still talk cattle. He is still listed in the Ohio Shorthorn Breeders assoc that comes out in the July issue each year. He still has a few cows he tinkers with and has a room in his barn filled with old banners and pics. Really neat to see.
Years ago he used to buy a lot of Rothney bred bulls, I believe Rothney Comet was one. He also got a lot of the Thomas herd. Did he keep or sell the Thomas cows? I know MILL BROOK RANSOM G 9 and MILL BROOK MARC IV were out of Thomas cows.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: E6 Durhams on December 07, 2010, 03:31:09 PM
Thats a good question okotoks. I will have to ask him and get back to you. If I was to guess I would say no. He only had about a dozen females and they were all first or second calvers when I was there. His herd bull was disapointing to say the least. He agreed with me on this. What he replaced him with is another good question. I have heard him say many times that he was a controversial fella back in the day. He smiles talking about it and insists his cattle were pure shorthorn. I guess we may never know. All his semen was lost when his tanks went dry some time back.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 08, 2010, 02:28:46 PM
Gs Irish Sweepstakes was raised by Deertrails Partners-and having been one too for 15 plus years  I cant really say what I heard told about his dam-other than she was a huge thick cow who may have come from Stillman Valley  Ill. Needless to say-the Strathore Mystic Rosewood cow was also  phenominal. Strathore also  produced an Evergreen Seville Son-I saw somewhere in an ad, Now Id be flat scaired to use him. I saw Iceways Magic bull at FortWorth in 1993-hed fit right in today-hate to say it-including the big BWS. Waukaru had a really good white hiefer out of him-dont know what became of her. O0
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 08, 2010, 02:52:21 PM
some pics of  guiness, and elbee, ayatollah... did you realize that the roan cattle in the orginal Irish pic I posted are from  Ballingarrrane, could be one of them is a Lilac the dam of the great Shannon Margie///There are some later pics of Guiness I believe maybe at Dugdales-Great bull
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Olson Family Shorthorns on December 08, 2010, 02:59:30 PM
We bought an IWF Magic x Minnie heifer from Waukaru in 2002 (or thereabouts).  She had quite a few good calves for us, including a bull we used in our herd for a few years.  She had twins a couple times, and her udder started to deteriorate and she hurt her hoof pretty badly so we sold her.  She really was a very good cow, just wish she had more heifers.  All of our Waukaru cows have way more bulls than heifers, not sure why.......
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Okotoks on December 08, 2010, 06:44:26 PM
The yankee bull would appear to be the better bull for me.
I was given some IWF Magic? semen awhile back. I never used it or researched it. I was told to save it and down the road use it on my best cows. Is he sired by Strathore Irish magic? What is the storry on IWF Magic if I am sayin his name right.

IMO the Typhoon bull looks HUGE and looks like a high input bull. Different strokes for different folks. He should sire some growth I would think :o That would be a perfect example of a terminal shorthorn bull.
IWF Magic was a really good bull, I wish his semen qualified for Canada. His dam was great Winalot Big Mac cow. The grand dam was by MILLVALE JUBILATION 1751.
 You should be able to work that in to your program with RS DV 034 329 08.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: JTM on December 09, 2010, 10:02:59 PM
Ransom and Marc IV were raised by R. Lee Johnson of Ohio.  Clark and Columbus were raised by Graham Land and Livestock in Minnesota.  In reard to my eariler comment that the Guiness calves we had were a little three pieced, I meant they appeared to be divided into sections, head and neck, shoulders, and rear end and none of the parts fit together smoothly. 
I went back and looked at the pedigrees after you replied. They have Graham Land and Livestock in Rensallaer, Indiana. Also, I was able to pin down why I thought those bulls came from my county. Columbus came from a "Guckian" cow (Eaton, Ohio) and Clark also goes back to a Guckian cow as the grandam. My grandmother grew up near the old Guckian farm and I believe my wife is related to some Guckian's. I will have to look into that some more.
 Trevor Guy Cattle Co. , I guess the rumor goes that the R. Lee Johnson bulls may have been out of Maine Anjou cows, bulls, or been purebred Maine Anjou. I have no clue but I can remember some question about G NINE or G9, which one I don't know. It would be interesting to visit and talk to him about the history of his herd and those three bulls.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: E6 Durhams on December 09, 2010, 10:10:17 PM
Ransom and Marc IV were raised by R. Lee Johnson of Ohio.  Clark and Columbus were raised by Graham Land and Livestock in Minnesota.  In reard to my eariler comment that the Guiness calves we had were a little three pieced, I meant they appeared to be divided into sections, head and neck, shoulders, and rear end and none of the parts fit together smoothly. 
I went back and looked at the pedigrees after you replied. They have Graham Land and Livestock in Rensallaer, Indiana. Also, I was able to pin down why I thought those bulls came from my county. Columbus came from a "Guckian" cow (Eaton, Ohio) and Clark also goes back to a Guckian cow as the grandam. My grandmother grew up near the old Guckian farm and I believe my wife is related to some Guckian's. I will have to look into that some more.
 Trevor Guy Cattle Co. , I guess the rumor goes that the R. Lee Johnson bulls may have been out of Maine Anjou cows, bulls, or been purebred Maine Anjou. I have no clue but I can remember some question about G NINE or G9, which one I don't know. It would be interesting to visit and talk to him about the history of his herd and those three bulls.

I have heard that rumor myself. If you ever want to talk to him, every friday morning in Mt. Vernon he has breakfast at Barb's Diner(7a.m.ish) and he always shows up at the ohio beef expo. He is a character. ;D we get along pretty good.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: oakview on December 10, 2010, 08:55:34 AM
Grahams dispersed their Minnesota herd in the 70's.  I think the sale averaged just over 3,000 and at the time, I thought it would be the highest averaging Shorthorn sale I would ever attend.  They acquired a few cows later, I bought a Columbus son out of a Lago's Cache Winner daughter a few years after the sale.  Ayatollah also appeared later.  I think the reason you see the Indiana address on a few Graham bred cattle is because after the boys left home, Barry Jordan kept some cows for them. 
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: justintime on December 10, 2010, 03:32:51 PM
Grahams dispersed their Minnesota herd in the 70's.  I think the sale averaged just over 3,000 and at the time, I thought it would be the highest averaging Shorthorn sale I would ever attend.  They acquired a few cows later, I bought a Columbus son out of a Lago's Cache Winner daughter a few years after the sale.  Ayatollah also appeared later.  I think the reason you see the Indiana address on a few Graham bred cattle is because after the boys left home, Barry Jordan kept some cows for them. 


You are correct in saying the Indiana address was some cows that Mark Graham Jr, purchased and had at Waukaru in a joint venture with them. Both Mark Jr. and Kevin Graham became Doctors and I haven't seen either of them for some time.
The Graham dispersal brings back many memories. I remember it taking over 1 hour to sell Columbus and almost that long to sell Great White Hope. They would actually stop the auction to allow different breeders to get their heads together and try to form partnerships to buy these bulls. At that time, Eldon Krebs was working for Millbrook ( R Lee Johnson) and at one point in the sale of Great White Hope, we had partnered to buy him. We chased him to $8000 and then decided to back away. If we had been able to buy him, we were going to call our partnership Hope Like Hell Cattle Co.

I also remember Mark Graham phoning me one day and trying to convince me to partner with him to buy a bull named GR Dreamboat. Dreamboat was selling the next day, and Mark really wanted to buy him. I was not interested in any way, shape or form but I did ask him what he thought it would take to buy him. Mark thought we could probably buy him if we each put up $40,000 which would have made him bring $80,000. When I told him I was not interested, he even offered to pay for the bull and he would allow me to pay my share over a period of time.  I was still not interested. Those were interesting times.....
I tried to buy some cows that day, but the ones I wanted sold for pretty good money .. for that time. I did end up buying a son of Columbus named County Seat. He grew into a huge bull, and I ended up not using him much as we were pretty stacked with herd sires at that time. I eventually sold him to a commercial man who ran mostly Hereford cows, and he sired some amazing daughters. He had some of the best brockle faced cows in this country and they had flawless udders and milked well.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 10, 2010, 05:26:43 PM
Ransom and Marc IV were raised by R. Lee Johnson of Ohio.  Clark and Columbus were raised by Graham Land and Livestock in Minnesota.  In reard to my eariler comment that the Guiness calves we had were a little three pieced, I meant they appeared to be divided into sections, head and neck, shoulders, and rear end and none of the parts fit together smoothly. 
I went back and looked at the pedigrees after you replied. They have Graham Land and Livestock in Rensallaer, Indiana. Also, I was able to pin down why I thought those bulls came from my county. Columbus came from a "Guckian" cow (Eaton, Ohio) and Clark also goes back to a Guckian cow as the grandam. My grandmother grew up near the old Guckian farm and I believe my wife is related to some Guckian's. I will have to look into that some more.
 Trevor Guy Cattle Co. , I guess the rumor goes that the R. Lee Johnson bulls may have been out of Maine Anjou cows, bulls, or been purebred Maine Anjou. I have no clue but I can remember some question about G NINE or G9, which one I don't know. It would be interesting to visit and talk to him about the history of his herd and those three bulls. ///-From my experience-I would not trust anybody-or anybody associated with Eaton Ohio-as fraudulent a bunch as Ive ever encountered-as long as its 10 of them and one of you -COWARDS O0
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: aj on December 10, 2010, 06:04:14 PM
I don't know much about this deal but I thought Johnson was throwed out of the assc.. Again this is third hand knowledge on my part.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: JTM on December 10, 2010, 06:16:24 PM
Ransom and Marc IV were raised by R. Lee Johnson of Ohio.  Clark and Columbus were raised by Graham Land and Livestock in Minnesota.  In reard to my eariler comment that the Guiness calves we had were a little three pieced, I meant they appeared to be divided into sections, head and neck, shoulders, and rear end and none of the parts fit together smoothly. 
I went back and looked at the pedigrees after you replied. They have Graham Land and Livestock in Rensallaer, Indiana. Also, I was able to pin down why I thought those bulls came from my county. Columbus came from a "Guckian" cow (Eaton, Ohio) and Clark also goes back to a Guckian cow as the grandam. My grandmother grew up near the old Guckian farm and I believe my wife is related to some Guckian's. I will have to look into that some more.
 Trevor Guy Cattle Co. , I guess the rumor goes that the R. Lee Johnson bulls may have been out of Maine Anjou cows, bulls, or been purebred Maine Anjou. I have no clue but I can remember some question about G NINE or G9, which one I don't know. It would be interesting to visit and talk to him about the history of his herd and those three bulls. ///-From my experience-I would not trust anybody-or anybody associated with Eaton Ohio-as fraudulent a bunch as Ive ever encountered-as long as its 10 of them and one of you -COWARDS O0
Mark, not sure what to say to that reply. All I can affect is how I conduct my business and who I conduct business with. I know what you are referring to and I hope that you don't think of all people from around Eaton as fraudulent. Things are a little different from when you left. If you want to talk more please send me a private message.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: irishshorthorns on April 22, 2011, 03:30:17 PM
hey DRB, Chapelton Liberty is from pre foot and mouth era, like most UK Shorthorns then , about 50% MA and 50% Shorthorn, the current Chapelton herd is all from  embyro project I put together for Mr Biggar... 28 donor cows and 12 sires... the best breeding bull in the UK is probably Chapelton Typhoon , [url]http://www.chapeltonfarm.co.uk/home.html,[/url] ([url]http://www.chapeltonfarm.co.uk/home.html,[/url]) also did their AA project. A number of these emybro bulls are now working in Ireland
 

Didn't a lot of these embryo cattle show up as being TH carrier animals and subsequently have to be culled by the Biggars? When I saw the pedigrees of the donor sires and dams it really stood out that there were a lot of "dirty" pedigrees and the potential for carrier calves and deformed progeny from the matings was great. If my memory serves didn,t the Royal Highland Show champion, Chapelton Toronto,  show up as a TH positive and also got culled. I saw the Chapelton Wildfire bull at a show and really disliked him. He appeared to have a large patch of bluey/black when I saw him. His colouration was not what I would like to see  creep in to the breed.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Okotoks on April 22, 2011, 03:46:15 PM
hey DRB, Chapelton Liberty is from pre foot and mouth era, like most UK Shorthorns then , about 50% MA and 50% Shorthorn, the current Chapelton herd is all from  embyro project I put together for Mr Biggar... 28 donor cows and 12 sires... the best breeding bull in the UK is probably Chapelton Typhoon , [url]http://www.chapeltonfarm.co.uk/home.html,[/url] ([url]http://www.chapeltonfarm.co.uk/home.html,[/url]) also did their AA project. A number of these emybro bulls are now working in Ireland
 

Didn't a lot of these embryo cattle show up as being TH carrier animals and subsequently have to be culled by the Biggars? When I saw the pedigrees of the donor sires and dams it really stood out that there were a lot of "dirty" pedigrees and the potential for carrier calves and deformed progeny from the matings was great. If my memory serves didn,t the Royal Highland Show champion, Chapelton Toronto,  show up as a TH positive and also got culled. I saw the Chapelton Wildfire bull at a show and really disliked him. He appeared to have a large patch of bluey/black when I saw him. His colouration was not what I would like to see  creep in to the breed.

Some of the sires used were TH carriers but these embryos were produced prior to testing being available. My understanding is that they were lucky and the percentage of carriers was below what you would expect. I'm pretty sure the two full brothers Chapelton Typhoon and Chapelton Wildfire are both TH free as are their other current herd sires.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: scotland on April 25, 2011, 07:50:07 AM
hey DRB, Chapelton Liberty is from pre foot and mouth era, like most UK Shorthorns then , about 50% MA and 50% Shorthorn, the current Chapelton herd is all from  embyro project I put together for Mr Biggar... 28 donor cows and 12 sires... the best breeding bull in the UK is probably Chapelton Typhoon , [url]http://www.chapeltonfarm.co.uk/home.html,[/url] ([url]http://www.chapeltonfarm.co.uk/home.html,[/url]) also did their AA project. A number of these emybro bulls are now working in Ireland
 

Didn't a lot of these embryo cattle show up as being TH carrier animals and subsequently have to be culled by the Biggars? When I saw the pedigrees of the donor sires and dams it really stood out that there were a lot of "dirty" pedigrees and the potential for carrier calves and deformed progeny from the matings was great. If my memory serves didn,t the Royal Highland Show champion, Chapelton Toronto,  show up as a TH positive and also got culled. I saw the Chapelton Wildfire bull at a show and really disliked him. He appeared to have a large patch of bluey/black when I saw him. His colouration was not what I would like to see  creep in to the breed.

ONly 5 carriers in the whole lot, all the matings were done pre TH. The 2 brothers pictured have gone on to prove themselves outstanding sires of sons and daughters, record seelers, show champion, carcass sires. Both TH and PHA free.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: aj on January 08, 2012, 09:12:31 AM
Seemed like dividend is in a lot of pedigrees.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 08, 2012, 11:25:33 AM
Yup-and as Robert Alden said-he can be linebred almost indefinitely- O0
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: aj on January 08, 2012, 11:47:17 AM
Did the old improver bull have any hoof issues I wonder? Didn't he live to be fairly old. Is there anyone out there that trimmed his hoovies? Or have movies of him? Was he buried like dividend?
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: outspoken on July 06, 2012, 10:51:29 AM
Lets bump this up, for some actual good reading for shorthorn people, and respectable pictures to check out. (thumbsup)
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: wiseguy on July 06, 2012, 03:25:06 PM
GREAT RE-READ! It had been sometime since I had read this post and I had forgotten all the great information. A lot of this stuff is information that if we don't pass it on by word of mouth it will be lost in the history books!

Anyone else notice in the July Shorthorn Country that Robert Alden is promoting AF Double Dynasty a Dividend X AF Shannon Margie 587 bull?  I found this very interesting.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on July 06, 2012, 04:09:59 PM
http://search.shorthorn.org/default.aspx (http://search.shorthorn.org/default.aspx)

type in reg#   4184630

i guess shorthorn country isn't online.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: outspoken on July 06, 2012, 04:21:09 PM
GREAT RE-READ! It had been sometime since I had read this post and I had forgotten all the great information. A lot of this stuff is information that if we don't pass it on by word of mouth it will be lost in the history books!

Anyone else notice in the July Shorthorn Country that Robert Alden is promoting AF Double Dynasty a Dividend X AF Shannon Margie 587 bull?  I found this very interesting.

yes-- i believe they were discussing really good cow lines- and the Irish deal was their bread and butter for the last how many years?  worked then for them, why not now?
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: GM on July 06, 2012, 06:34:57 PM
I haven't seen the recent Shorthorn Country yet, but I'm glad to see a Dividend son being promoted.

There's always talk about what to breed clubby bred cows to.  I don't have a herd of clubby cattle, but if I did I'd breed them to a full irish THF shorthorn bull (from the  irish Leader lines...not improver since most clubby bred cows are THC) for first calf heifers or cleanup duty.  While the resulting bull calves will probably not make marketable steers, some of their female half sisters will better than average replacements...especially if you like chrome.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: irishshorthorns on July 06, 2012, 07:01:18 PM
Is there any photo of the AF Double Dynasty bull? I've heard a few people talking about him in the past few weeks. They are supposed to have sold $50,000 worth of pre-booked semen from him already.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on July 06, 2012, 07:10:16 PM
Isn't he 3 years old?

Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: irishshorthorns on July 06, 2012, 07:46:39 PM
I was told they are only releasing semen now?
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: coyote on July 06, 2012, 11:50:05 PM
Here is a bull we bought out of the Canadian Western Agribition in 1982. He is A F DIVIDENDS IMPACT 2nd who is a full brother to A F DIVIDENDS IMPACT.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on July 07, 2012, 12:07:54 AM
He's way different than what you have now much finer boned and narrower based with less set to his hock and clearly nowhere the volume of bonanza.  Are people creating a headache?
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Duncraggan on July 07, 2012, 08:05:37 AM
Is there any photo of the AF Double Dynasty bull? I've heard a few people talking about him in the past few weeks. They are supposed to have sold $50,000 worth of pre-booked semen from him already.
Now, in my book, that's good money!

It seems as though all the Alden's cattle I've seen pictures of are red-necked roans, or is it pure coincidence
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: coyote on July 07, 2012, 08:17:13 AM
Knabe during that era there were a lot of gutless wonders around. One thing he did have more of than most bulls around was a fairly good rear quarter.
A good thread to start would be " Bulls of the 80's" you sure would see some interesting bulls.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Will on July 09, 2012, 10:55:57 AM
We owned a Dividend son out of NPS Mirage registration # *x4069857.  We only had him a short time before we lost him to injury.  We kept a few daughters that have been culled down to I think three registered cows.  Some of them were on the hard keeping side.  What he really work well on was some smaller framed Angus based cross bred cows.  We have a handful of blue roan cross bred cows that are his daughters that are awesome cows.  They always raise the biggest and best calves.  We have kept some of them that would actually be 7/8 shorthorn but we have never registered them,  Probably one of my many mistakes.  I should have collected him.

To think about it we have a shorthorn marked Headliner steer calf out of one of his granddaughters that looks very good.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: E6 Durhams on July 09, 2012, 02:58:51 PM
He's way different than what you have now much finer boned and narrower based with less set to his hock and clearly nowhere the volume of bonanza.  Are people creating a headache?



Why would more volume create more headaches? To much of anything is bad obviously but I'm curious.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on July 09, 2012, 09:20:07 PM
He's way different than what you have now much finer boned and narrower based with less set to his hock and clearly nowhere the volume of bonanza.  Are people creating a headache?



Why would more volume create more headaches? To much of anything is bad obviously but I'm curious.

The headache would be trying to get the volume back in.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: E6 Durhams on July 10, 2012, 11:24:36 AM
So your saying plugging these bulls in now would hinder not improve today's lines? Sorry I didn't get it for awhile.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: hamburgman on July 10, 2012, 11:41:52 AM
I wonder how much feeding has to do with some of these cattle not having guts in the 80s.  It would be interesting to have those embryos and feed them the high fiber diets that we feed today to show calves  and see how they turn out.  Not saying they would be belly draggers but wonder how much you could drop them.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on August 31, 2022, 01:57:24 PM
Dividends Impact himself was anything but a gutless wonder from the progeny I have seen over the years O0
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on August 31, 2022, 10:35:25 PM
So what breeding was the 13th bull in ur opinion. What was his "cross"? if u will

ask tim ohlde. HE WOULDNT HAVE A CLUE-WHEN WAS THE LASTIME HE WENT TO IRELAND -ALDESNS WOULD
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: Dale on September 03, 2022, 10:20:16 AM
This thread helps refresh or teach us about what those Irish animals were really like. 

What AI bulls have great feet?  Which bull was truly calving ease?  A good attitude is found in certain bloodlines.  Within this thread and others on SP there are answers to many questions.   

Several of my favorite cattle trace have some Irish heritage, very far back in their pedigrees.  JJC Wild Side bull was nearly 10 years old in 2011 when we purchased him.  I'd looked at Wild Side's pedigree and saw no Improver in him, but lots of Dividend and other Leader breeding.  However, back in his pedigree, Improver was there 3 times--what was going on 40 years ago is still relevant.

Inheritance is about passing along physical traits and genes, both good and bad.     
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 03, 2022, 10:05:07 PM
You are right-with all the trials and tribulations even generations away (Double stuff on a great g daughter of dividend etc) THE DIVIDEND IMPROVER CROSS HAD A CATALYST of some kind that is hard to explain-BUT IT ALWAYS SEEMED TO exemplify the posistive rather than negative attributes of both sides. Robert Alden certainly proved that, for the 31 years Ive known the AF deal. He also bred MANY other scenarios. He remains the most active breeder to incorporate all manners of pedigrees and breeding scenarios of anyone I know in Shorthorns and plusses. And it worked well alot of the time. O0
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on September 04, 2022, 09:53:24 PM
with 3 defects in developmental genes, it's no wonder triple stuff has something mysterious.


test the triples that are good, and if they don't have one defect, i'll be impressed.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 05, 2022, 03:40:26 PM
FIRST OF ALL ALMOST EVERYTHING HAS DS IN THEORY-THO I AND MANY OTHERS HAVE NEVER SEEN A DS CALF-THAT WAS CRIPPLED IVE SEEN HUNDREDS THAT WERENT. THERE AGAIN-thats out in the regular every day deal.Not test tube world.  Just ask Robert Alden or me about TH DS -and in Roberts case all three. From line bred-ImproverxDouble stuff or Double visions etc etc.At Deertrail we had a bunch of daughters of a bull I called UB DTR Junior Walker-That was back when the cattle werent tested but some of his daughters that were-tested triple clean That would be on every one but Deertrail Sue She was TH The last one we tested is still around 4282672  Nancy G Heeter tested her and two daughters in 2016.ALL TESTED  CLEAN OF TH and PHA The 2016 daughter was sired by Taffeta-Money Man-who was out of a Junior Walker Grand daughter-So line bred both sides THE FIRST DAUGHTER of DEERTRAIL TAFFETA BY Junior Walker (UB TAFFETA) was sired by RHF Magnum the worst bull for TH disasters we ever used.The bad ones came out of cows that went back to Mill Brooke Mark 4 and Hilltop Breeding. I have never heard of deformed calves from that breeding but Magnum threw a bunch of them. Magnum was a HI $ bull but went to town. That Magnum sired Taffeta female ( DOUBLE TH?) was showed by Tyler Atwood and had several calves commercial and otherwise-SHE SHOULD HAVE BEEN A MESS-she wasnt and neither were any of her calves. IN FACT SHE HAD A CALF BY A HERD BULL FROM MY MAGNUM-CUMBERLAND CALLED CRAFTSMAN-A third possible TH . He never sired any monsters either.  Nancy didnt have time to use the long drawn out process-But she was president of the Shorthorn ASSOC so if she said SEKS tests were clean in 2016- they were clean. Junior Walker was TH and DS He only had one full calf crop and a smaller number the next year I bought one of the  last junior Walker females SHE GOT BRED to 20 20 Vision for a first calf while being showed by a friend of the family.-No problem heifer calf. Bartels bros in Nebraska bought a white bull calf (Deertrail White Lightning) that was a son who they registered 64 head to in their herd . Many of their cattle were real clubby by that time (1999) with all the scoundrels in the background. The one brother told me at Louisville they never had a th disaster calf he knew of. So there seems to be some kind of TH strain at least that varies in strength. I am sure there are a ton of clean ones from TH x TH matings elsewhere. Not that Id ever knowingly try that. And we test anything that might be suspect. O0
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on September 11, 2022, 11:25:22 AM
are all the offspring mentioned traceable with DNA parentage tested clean in the shorthorn database, or are the results kept private.


please provide examples instead of anecdotes.


sure seems like these magical cattle should have taken over the industry by now and replaced angus.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 15, 2022, 03:33:14 PM
Ask the former president of the American Shorthorn Assoc Nancy Heeter who tested 4 out of the 6 animals listed She didnt feel like waiting 3 months to get results After running KABSU she has been in bovine genetics for years-So she got them tested and had no reason cater to you or anyone else. I tested JR Walker who was born in 1997 and several but not all of his daughters and some grandaughters Very few of these cattle are around anymore. there was only one TH female. Deertrail Sue.I am speaking of cattle many of which were around before testing And about cattle that did not HAVE DEFORMED CALVES but should have. Thats what I am talking about not the political speedbump bu!#$%&*sh#%^&t trying to get results at the association and their payola test or no recordation at all-From accurate llegitimate labs that test alot of different breeds just fine.  I dont live in a smug self satisfied test tube world and do not care to. Lets see the tests on all 4 of your herd cowboy O0
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on September 16, 2022, 02:23:09 AM
You know how to look it up huckleberry.

Your pants arenít tight enough.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 16, 2022, 11:20:27 PM
 Thats because Im straight O0
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on September 17, 2022, 04:57:39 PM
Thats because Im straight O0


straight up in your pants!


glad i can still turn you on.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 19, 2022, 11:12:20 PM
????? You and sarrenon are two dreamboys that are destined to be strangers in the night  The Polynesian Cabanna boy meets a gerbile busting cowboy of the San Fran Cisco  sage
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on September 19, 2022, 11:59:32 PM
Your biggest past time is calling other people what you are.

Never going to change.

Your favorite topic is yourself.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 20, 2022, 01:10:35 PM
 I know you are but what am i? LOL ( QUOTE BOY GEORGE-1988) O0
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on September 21, 2022, 08:42:14 PM
I know you are but what am i? LOL ( QUOTE BOY GEORGE-1988) O0


you are what you call others
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 22, 2022, 07:10:17 AM
Then you are a liberal democrat LOL Go shine up your earthshoes Star Bucks Yuppy  O0
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: knabe on September 22, 2022, 05:19:04 PM
So you are a liberal democrats.
Title: Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 26, 2022, 10:31:45 PM
 Great reply -think ill let my 6 year old grand niece take it from here O0