Theories on backwards and upside down and backwards calves

What are the educated guesses and  theories on why calves are born backwards, upside down and backwards and upside down. 

SWMO said:

What are the educated guesses and  theories on why calves are born backwards, upside down and backwards and upside down. 

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induced labor
extra size, too much to turn into position
twins

I would agree with the theories advanced so far.  In our herd, we have scientific proof that the probability of birth difficulty is directly correlated with how much you are looking forward to the calf.  Seriously, though, we did have a cow in the early 90's that had 4 consecutive backwards calves.  The next three were normal and none of her daughters ever had a backwards calf.  The cow in question was fairly large in size, so you would think there would have been plenty of room.  Sometimes you just win the lottery.

I remember a post from years ago, when it seemed there were allot of backwards calves, it was something about laying on a slope or something like that.
I think there may have been other theories but that is the one I remember. I though to myself well if that was the case half the cattle in California would be born backward, with the hills they graze on out here.

Our experience is that upside down calves will eventually turn, just give them some time, but I realize that might be too late if they are coming through the birth canal.

You put the semen in upside down.

cowman 52 said:

You put the semen in upside down.

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(lol)

I have had a customer ask for a replacement bull because the first year he had a bull purchased from me his calves were backwards, not really sure it was that bull he had 25 bulls so it may have been one or all of them, he went ahead and turned him out again the next spring and never had another for 3 years running. He sold the bull so we don't know if he would have had anymore or not. Could it be a genetic thing?

This year, after 12 years breeding cattle, I had my first distocia problema with a backward calf. I not believe that is a genetics problem as this cow was on your 3rd gestation. Cow is a pedigree Aberdeen Angus (red coated) sired by Buffalo Creek Chief 824-1658 out a TKP Bodacious 693 cow, calf was by SAV 008 Density 4336 - for genetic info yours.
I think that these bad placed calves are primarily product of mechanical injuries like halters on flank, beats at management center or maybe some chemical component of health products (had and saw aborts caused by Abamectin on lat gestation month). As this year we had to bring herd at least 5 times on last 4 months at management center, is highly probable that some other animal can halter or cow has beaten self on some point.

I counted once and figured I have a backward calf every 30 calves or so. There was nothing special or different in them. They wernt overly large, related, in a different pen, treated different in anyway. I havnt noticed a mother daughter problem or a certain sire. Just very random.

Just had a backward one yesterday. It was 70 lbs and an embryo. The other flushmates have come normal this far. The cow didnt dialate either but some of that could have been the backward calf. Shes a great big cow too. Oh well we always seem to have one a year that way. The vet got it out and everything worked itself out.

maybe shorthorns and clubbies should come backwards---  they slide out so much easier..  triangle, instead of a chunk of wood

I have often wondered if some of mine were the result of cows walking up steep slopes. Mine go up and down a slope to drink water. Just a theory .......

I had a heifer that calved this fall with what i thought was an upside down calf. His head was upside down and his front legs were upside down. Called the vet out, that was way over my head of expertise. He told me when he got here that he has hardly ever seen a "truly" upside down calf, and usually they are just twisted. Well, this guy was twisted, so with a little adjusting he came right out. He did not want to live, but the vet got him going after 15 minutes or so (or it seemed like that long). I think we almost lost him! He was not late, not overly large for a heifer (78 pounds, if I remember correctly).

Talked to a Kimberly Vohname ( last name I probably spelled incorrectly) she studied and got her doctorate in reproduction at ISU and currently teaches several advanced repro classes at NDSU. In the last few weeks of pregnancy the smooth muscle contractions....called contractiles align the calf into what we know as normal presentation. Weather, stress and level of activity can have negative effects on this process. I wouldnt blame this on ol bessy laying on the straw pack in a goofy manner.

The most LIKELY CAUSE in a majority of cases is size IMO ,there proably are some instances that there are other causes .  Have watched different herds over the years that complain of backward calves and they are usuall people trying for that
extra gain and don't care about having to pull calves out of cows and usually are big cows to ....In most  cases they are run by young people who don't mind staying up all night and can stand all the extra work ....This proably describes some of the clubby guys ....

Here is my thoughts for what it is worth.  Three out of the last four calves that we had this fall were backwards.  Two were also upside down    We are unfortunately getting pretty good at turning them and getting them out.  None of these calves were overly large,  two of the cows are great big inside with lots of pelvic room.  However, they were all the last to calve this fall.  Is it possible that these cows are doing alot of riding late in there gestation cycle resulting in the calf getting displaced at a late stage in the pregnancy and not being able to reposition?  I have thought a lot about this and know that one of these cows will certainly act like a bull late in her pregnancy. 

I was hoping that Cowboy would weigh in on this one also.  I know that our embryologist does not want bred cows running with open cows he feels like it results in many injuries to the overies from the calf moving around.

SWMO said:

Here is my thoughts for what it is worth.  Three out of the last four calves that we had this fall were backwards.  Two were also upside down    We are unfortunately getting pretty good at turning them and getting them out.  None of these calves were overly large,  two of the cows are great big inside with lots of pelvic room.  However, they were all the last to calve this fall.  Is it possible that these cows are doing alot of riding late in there gestation cycle resulting in the calf getting displaced at a late stage in the pregnancy and not being able to reposition?  I have thought a lot about this and know that one of these cows will certainly act like a bull late in her pregnancy. 

I was hoping that Cowboy would weigh in on this one also.  I know that our embryologist does not want bred cows running with open cows he feels like it results in many injuries to the overies from the calf moving around.

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You know, now that you mention it, this was one of the last two to calve, and she was riding all the cows that had calved earlier and were waiting to be bred. You might have something!

One year we had a pen of roughly 15 bred heifers all bred to the same bull and kept together there whole life, over half of those calves were backwards.  The next year we used the same bull again and didn't have a single backwards calf.  The only thing we could think of was not enough exercise as we may have had them penned up to early. 

I also remember a year where we had lots of calves where the front legs weren't far enough forward, it seemed there knees would be right under there chin and the cow couldn't push them out. 

I could buy into the theory of stress or abnormal activity or environment; however, I don't think it's something we can control or predict with any accuracy at all. Some things just are, and we're best to accept it and manage it best we can.

I've pulled or helped delivery a fee calves, and I know that sometimes there are calves born backwards (back feet first) that we never even know are backwards. They might not require help, and nobody will ever know whether they were born normally or backwards. I have pulled one calf that was upside down AND backwards...THAT is a mess! I got her out alive, but that was one that never woulda seen the light of day!

With three kids of my own--and no proof that it has any bearing on this conversation--but two of the three were abnormally presented. The first was head first, the second butt first, and the third feet first, and that is NOT the way you want things to go! Like I said, you accept the possibility that things might not go exactly as they're supposed to go and you manage the situation best you can once you know what the situation is. That's all I know to do.