To fudge or not to fudge, that is the question!

OK, first off before the ethics patrol accuses me of wrong doing, I'm not changing BW's.  My question is this; if you had a bull calf that weighed 101 pounds would you fudge a little & say it's below 100? Or would you just estimate & just base weight on how the calf looks?
Since this poll is anonymous no one while know how you voted so you can vote without repercussions. Of course if you don't care you can make all the comments you want! 

Red

Being ethical pays off in the long run.  Yes, Barry Bonds and A-rod, I'm talking to you guys. 

There you go again(Reagan). Bwts reporting is interesting. Somehow the 100# cutoff got established. I remember in the early eighties  a lot of Simmental herd used the 100# bwt as a base. I think part of is that people that have close access to cows during calving don't mind pulling a couple calves or more during the calving season( if you have them up in barns aand whatnot). Others calve out in situations where it is a real pain to pull one calf. Great topic Red.

What about the people that "fudge" their calf's BW and it still is above 100 lbs? I voted for telling the actual, but you can take into consideration did you weigh it when it first came out? 12 hours after? is your scales accurate or could they be off by a couple pounds.

On the same note, it really annoys me when people try to guesstimate BW's without actually weighing. IMO, there is no way to guess what those internal organs weigh and just because they are small in stature doesn't always mean they are low BW. If you didn't weigh it dont say anything like: he was small, moderate, around 80 lbs, etc etc. only acceptable answer is for whatever reason you didn't weigh it.

I would never fudge that one!!! Fudging is the biggest reason EPDs are worthless! Unless you can get EPDs based on your herd alone they mean absolutely nothing. Fudging is also why we have show cattle that are way to big.  Age a calf 6 weeks to win a show and now everyone is buying bulls that are 1 1/2 frame scores to big!

Also if I tell a person that I want a potential herd sire that has a birth weight under 90#s  I mean it.  91 is not OK!   just my 2 cents

I had 2 bull calves born yesterday & they both weighed 101! Sometimes if we weigh more than 24 hours I joke w/ the nephew that since they nursed I can knock of a couple of pounds. 

Red

Are there any adjustments that need to be made?  Age of dam?   

You brought up fudging with birth weight and this does go on. We dont actually weigh are calves just rough estimates, and for us this works we dotn get any of them monster calves that are  over 100 lbs and square we just have a few calves by angus cows bred to easy calvin who sons.

How often do you think fudgin on Birth DATE goes on lol interesting when labor day weekend comes areound and all the calves are magically late march's and early april calves.

Anyone that will use a 99# bwt bull will probably use a 101# bull also. Its the bull with a 120# bwt that gets semen drawnon him and is called a 87# in the semen flyers that kill me.

AJ -- I totally agree here.

Take Heat Wave for example, he is and always has been listed as 92 pounds at birth -- WHAT???

I know the breeder, have talked to him on the phone several times. That monster weighed 145 pounds, and was set to see the knife when Phile drove in the drive. He said don't vut him, and he was sold!

No blame on the breeder there -- I ain't saying anymore!

I DO NOT intentionaly fudge birth weights or dates. Last week when we had that really big Star Power, it was a real strain to get it on there -- it was already pretty dry and still almost maxed out the scale. Why would any one try and say that was a 90 something when it darn near killed the cow???

I sleep pretty good at night, and this is one rason I do!

Good post Red -- how ya been??? -- doing better I certainly hope -- looks like thigs are going well!

Terry

Speaking of fudging;

From the court documents where you can get into legal trouble for telling a lie...

Hall’s Legacy Plus 738G (“Legacy Plus”) was a Maine Anjou bull bred by Hall, born on March 13, 1997, and registered with the American Maine Anjou Association as Registration Number 257903.

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From the Maine-Anjou association where a May 3rd birthdate puts you at the oldest part of the Summer Bull division instead of the middle of the ultra-competitive Junior Bull division...

DOB
5/3/1997

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http://maine-anjou.weaveyourwebdreams.com/breed/pedigree.asp?RegNo=257903

Quick question here - does anyone use a tape rather than a scale for birth weights?  Do you consider the tape to be accurate enough?

When we registered calves, we used to use the tape.  Compared it to the scale a number of times and found it to be pretty close.  We used it consistently because of the convenience.  I think the one area where the tape can be off is an especially big boned calf.

ASA adjust BW's when you send them in. We have had an 89# become adjust 92#'s. I am not that bright and I don't understand why they adjust them.

Like weaning weight it's adjusted based on the age of the dam and sex of the calf.

Our last calf would have been one to fool the tape system and I dare say anyone trying to "guesstimate" the weight.    When he was born I would have guessed him to weigh 100-105 pounds based on his length, height, and the size of his feet.   When I put him on the scale he weighte 84 pounds.   I even checked the scale to make sure it was right.

IMHO guesstimating is almost worthless as a tool for birthweights.   I've weighed probably 250 cavles in the last 15 years and I usually try to guess their weight before hand.   I'll bet I'm off by more than 10 pounds just as many times as I'm within 10 pounds.    Now, before you tee off on me, I challenge you to do what I do--write down your quess first, then weigh them, and then compare your results.   I think the "guesstimaters" among us will be surprised!!  

Hoof tapes are a step in the right direction but, as I said in my first example,  they can be misleading at times as well.  Anyone in the purebred business should use a scale or not report the weight IMHO.   I don't think there is any way to police it, though, so they weights given will still only be as accurate as the ethics of the person doing the weighing.

Show Steaks said:

You brought up fudging with birth weight and this does go on. We dont actually weigh are calves just rough estimates, and for us this works we dotn get any of them monster calves that are  over 100 lbs and square we just have a few calves by angus cows bred to easy calvin who sons.

How often do you think fudgin on Birth DATE goes on lol interesting when labor day weekend comes areound and all the calves are magically late march's and early april calves.

Click to expand...

If you're giving a rough estimate without weighing you are fudging whether you like it or not, you honestly have no idea what that calf weighs.

We cut anything over 100 pounds so no need to fudge.

Well, if anyone is interested, a couple years ago, I hoof taped all our calves, and also weighed them on the scale. If all you want is an average weight on a group of calves it will do the trick. If you want actual weights on each calf, use a scale. The biggest difference between the scale and the tape was over 20 lbs, it averaged 7 lbs out. If someone wants to see the file, just PM me and I will send it to them. I will never use the tape again.

my friend with the Star power calf taped him at 115 and scaled at 113

The tape definitely doesn't work for Braunvieh. They naturally have more bone and the tape always is at least 10 pounds over the actual weight. We use a hand scale for ours and if we get a head-scrather, we put them in the chute and weigh them to be sure. They are always within a couple pounds of each other.  I personally take BW very seriously, especially on bull calves. My dad has sold bulls for YEARS and has always had a strict policy on recording accurate BWs and cutting anything too big. After 25 years, he no longer advertises and just sells to repeat customers. A bull can have a HUGE impact on a customer's impression of your cattle based solely on BW so we are very strict about it and it has paid off. Too me it doesn't matter what kind of bull you have if you can't start with a live, healthy calf from him.

Keep the weight and use a knife. We cut anything over 90#s. I have three scales and a tape - if I have time I will use all three of them on the same calf. There is a 15# varience between scales and the tape is usually close to average. Just for fun I weighed a calf on my digital scale, the three spring scales and taped it - The tape was the closest to the digital scales. RW