TOO MUCH PROTEIN ??

I was wondering if it was possible to feed to much protein and can the results of that be swelling of the hocks... Like OCD. Because we thought my calf had OCD and we are feeding him bute and a glucosimine powder in his feed and this his like his 5th day on all that and the swelling went down prolly have an inch and became alot softer. So i was wondering if it was because i cut him off of his extra protein he was getting ( VitaFerm) because we were wondering if it was too much protein and now the swelling has gone down after we cute back protein....

Doubt it was from the protein.  Excess protein just increases the energy content of the feed. Though you shouldn't strive to get excess calories from protein as its the most expensive form per unit.  I've fed up to 2.4lbs of protein (6lbs of 40%  cs cubes) a day and nvr noticed anything. It's overkill on the protein but on dormant grass, it takes that much to get the tdn up to acceptable numbers. 

Chandler said:

Doubt it was from the protein.  Excess protein just increases the energy content of the feed. Though you shouldn't strive to get excess calories from protein as its the most expensive form per unit.   I've fed up to 2.4lbs of protein (6lbs of 40%  cs cubes) a day and nvr noticed anything. It's overkill on the protein but on dormant grass, it takes that much to get the tdn up to acceptable numbers. 

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excess protein just gets excreted out..

Sounds to me like faulty genetics.

Cut the BS said:

Chandler said:

Doubt it was from the protein.  Excess protein just increases the energy content of the feed. Though you shouldn't strive to get excess calories from protein as its the most expensive form per unit.   I've fed up to 2.4lbs of protein (6lbs of 40%  cs cubes) a day and nvr noticed anything. It's overkill on the protein but on dormant grass, it takes that much to get the tdn up to acceptable numbers. 

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excess protein just gets excreted out..

Sounds to me like faulty genetics.

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Sorry i'm almost positive its not genetics the guy i purchased them from has never had this problem and he is a thriller calf i can put a picture if u would like

Cowgirl94 said:

I was wondering if it was possible to feed to much protein and can the results of that be swelling of the hocks... Like OCD. Because we thought my calf had OCD and we are feeding him bute and a glucosimine powder in his feed and this his like his 5th day on all that and the swelling went down prolly have an inch and became alot softer. So i was wondering if it was because i cut him off of his extra protein he was getting ( VitaFerm) because we were wondering if it was too much protein and now the swelling has gone down after we cute back protein....

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Bute is a NSAID used to reduce pain and inflamation and probably the reason you see less swelling. 

Phenylbutazone is commonly used  for the following purposes:
Analgesia: It is used for pain relief from infections and musculoskeletal disorders, including sprains, overuse injuries, tendinitis, arthralgias, arthritis, and laminitis. Like other NSAIDs, it acts directly on musculoskeletal tissue to control inflammation, thereby reducing secondary inflammatory damage, alleviating pain, and restoring range of motion. It does not cure musculoskeletal ailments

Bute is also not an approved drug for food producing animals.

Cut the BS said:

Chandler said:

Doubt it was from the protein.  Excess protein just increases the energy content of the feed. Though you shouldn't strive to get excess calories from protein as its the most expensive form per unit.   I've fed up to 2.4lbs of protein (6lbs of 40%  cs cubes) a day and nvr noticed anything. It's overkill on the protein but on dormant grass, it takes that much to get the tdn up to acceptable numbers. 

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excess protein just gets excreted out..Sounds to me like faulty genetics.

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no way jose- excess UREA gets excreted out- Excess amino acids are converted to sugars.  Excess sugars are converted to fat. The liver burns some of the fat, converts some to other substances (one is cholesterol) and sends the rest to fat cells.

yukon pete said:

Bute is also not an approved drug for food producing animals.

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This is why usually only horse people use it. Also, after just a couple of days of heavy use, it can cause major ulcers in the animals stomach- not a risk that is often worth the benefits.

Boot Jack Bulls said:

yukon pete said:

Bute is also not an approved drug for food producing animals.

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This is why usually only horse people use it. Also, after just a couple of days of heavy use, it can cause major ulcers in the animals stomach- not a risk that is often worth the benefits.

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I agree with Chandler, extra protine turns to waste. If the floor in his pen is concrete or just a real hard surface that can cause the hocks to swell.

Perhaps an injury of some sort?

I hope it is an injury but my vet told me that the bute has a 30 day withdrawal time and to use it 5 days with it in his feed then go 5 days without. Today is his first day without the bute and the swelling didnt increase it just got a lot harder and stayed the same size as the first time the swelling decreased.

My other calf also started the same thing a few days ago right after this calf and now his is gone so im wondering if maybe they were playing really hard.... cause the other calf's swelling is gone

Chandler said:

Cut the BS said:

Chandler said:

Doubt it was from the protein.  Excess protein just increases the energy content of the feed. Though you shouldn't strive to get excess calories from protein as its the most expensive form per unit.   I've fed up to 2.4lbs of protein (6lbs of 40%  cs cubes) a day and nvr noticed anything. It's overkill on the protein but on dormant grass, it takes that much to get the tdn up to acceptable numbers. 

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excess protein just gets excreted out..Sounds to me like faulty genetics.

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no way jose- excess UREA gets excreted out- Excess amino acids are converted to sugars.  Excess sugars are converted to fat. The liver burns some of the fat, converts some to other substances (one is cholesterol) and sends the rest to fat cells.

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Actually it depends on the protein source and whch amno acids are present...not all amino acds are glucogenic, and only glucogenic amno acida can be converted  into sugar source...and there is the potential for excess(and even n some cases non-excess) of all substances to be excreted...there is no absolute when dealng wth the body and how it metabolizes, stores, and excretes products like this.

Nevertheless...I dont think this is food related.  Is the calf sore when it walks?  There could be numerous answers for the swellng....if you have a veternaran treatng him, then  would ask him and trust his judgement rather than just go off of this because none of us have examned him...t could very much be genetic, just because the breeder has not seen the problem in his herd before does not mean that it ddnt just show tself n this calf for the frst time, swollen joints can be the results of infections as nfections often settle n the joints, could be stress from the ground he is walkng on if it is very hard, there are a lot of other thngs that could cause it.

No he isnt really sore he just isnt covering his tracks but he is also very long bodied but even when i poke the lump it doesnt bother him

Your vet is wrong.
Bute(phenylbutazone) is not approved for use in food animals - and is PROHIBITED for use in dairy cattle over 20 months of age.
That said, it leaves a 'crack' open for potential 'extra-label' use, but it's still frowned upon by FDA and FARAD, because an approved product, such as Banamine(flunixin meglumine) is available for the same purpose.

Since Bute is not approved for use in food-producing animals, there is no established meat/milk withdrawal time.  FARAD suggests 40-55 days minimum, following an appropriate oral or IV dosage; Canada recommends no less than 60 days.

Lucky_P said:

Your vet is wrong.
Bute(phenylbutazone) is not approved for use in food animals - and is PROHIBITED for use in dairy cattle over 20 months of age.
That said, it leaves a 'crack' open for potential 'extra-label' use, but it's still frowned upon by FDA and FARAD, because an approved product, such as Banamine(flunixin meglumine) is available for the same purpose.

Since Bute is not approved for use in food-producing animals, there is no established meat/milk withdrawal time.  FARAD suggests 40-55 days minimum, following an appropriate oral or IV dosage; Canada recommends no less than 60 days.

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what's your point?

My point is that 1.the 'withdrawal' time that the vet gave to cowgirl is incorrect.  30 days is incorrect and inadequate.  And 2. There are approved drugs that should be used before going 'extra-label' with Bute.

Phenylbutazone is known to cause blood disorders(aplastic anemia, thrombocytopenia, etc.) in humans, so there is ZERO tolerance for bute residues in meat. 
When residues - whether bute, clenbuterol, antibiotics, whatever- show up in slaughter animals, it gives all of us in the beef business a big black eye in the eye of the consumer. 
There are enough goobers out there using and recommending stuff they don't really know enough about, that veterinarians NEED to be informed on AMDUCA and ELDU so that they can make appropriate recommendations to their clients.  If cowgirl's steer went to slaughter and had violative residues detected, she and her vet could be held accountable.

Thanks Lucky P.  A few years ago, our state fair had an incident where the champion steer tested positive for this drug and the exhibitor forfeited the $56,000 that they sold the steer for and it gave the showsteer industry in our area a very black eye that has yet to heal.

yukon pete said:

Thanks Lucky P.  A few years ago, our state fair had an incident where the champion steer tested positive for this drug and the exhibitor forfeited the $56,000 that they sold the steer for and it gave the showsteer industry in our area a very black eye that has yet to heal.

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If you are brave enough to bring that incident up, I would hope you have first hand knowledge of the situation. FYI it went to court and was settled there, most of us will never really know what happened.

Wow, sure didn't mean to raise any hackles.  Just trying to help prevent another incident.  Sorry if I offended you.

Boot Jack Bulls said:

yukon pete said:

Thanks Lucky P.  A few years ago, our state fair had an incident where the champion steer tested positive for this drug and the exhibitor forfeited the $56,000 that they sold the steer for and it gave the showsteer industry in our area a very black eye that has yet to heal.

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If you are brave enough to bring that incident up, I would hope you have first hand knowledge of the situation. FYI it went to court and was settled there, most of us will never really know what happened.

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http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1683&dat=20011023&id=5b0aAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1D4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5586,3614897

Milwaukee Journal 2001 Teen forfeits $56,000 over banned drug in steer. The steer tested positive for Phenylbutazone, often referred to as bute.