Too Small Framed?

I have attended several of the local sale barns in the past month. I can't tell you how many times I have heard that some of the cattle don't have enough frame. The order buyers around here will often ask to have the more clubby looking cattle sorted off. I have always felt that the steer show judges set the trends for the commercial industry. With that in play, have we as clubby breeders gone a little too far in reducing frame size as it pertains to the feedlot industry?  Anyone have thoughts on this subject?

Absolutely...    The smaller framed cattle get hit hard on price here.  If they look like they have a lot of hair, they get hit hard.      I don't think the commercial industry has totally bought into the downsize on frame.  Sure they have downsized since the 70's & early 80's but not so far..    I'd say the best selling cattle are anywhere from a 6 to 7.    The feeder guy has to have cattle that will gain a number of pounds to make money.    That's the bottom line.   

At our local sale barn any calf that looks "clubby" ie smaller framed with alot of hair will be sorted off and docked 15 to 20 cents off of top steer price. If they are too straight off their wheels take another nickle off. RW

olsun said:

the steer show judges set the trends for the commercial industry.

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Wrong.  Very wrong.  If you think the commercial industry gives two hoots about the results from any show you are sadly mistaken.  Sorry to be harsh, but it's the truth.

I was in Denver this past week and I talked to some club calf guys about show steers.  I asked them what was the going height for the steers that are winning.  I was kind of shocked to hear a couple of them say 49" at the hip!  Is that correct?  I'm a purebred angus guy so I'm a little out of the loop on the show steer deal.

BadgerFan said:

olsun said:

the steer show judges set the trends for the commercial industry.

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Wrong.  Very wrong.  If you think the commercial industry gives two hoots about the results from any show you are sadly mistaken.  Sorry to be harsh, but it's the truth.

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Badger fan, you are so right. I just roll in total teas and laughter when I hear the show/clubbie people say their bloodlines "work in the real world".... apparently not in mine, or anyone else who deals with the real world!

You are not being too harsh, but possibly not yet experienced enough. I watched in the 50s and 60s when the commercial cattle were being bred too small. It was the show industry that prompted the move to larger framed cattle. That is what encouraged the importation of the many new breeds. Do you think these cattle would have been imported if we weren't in the mood for more frame. Many of the top judges have university foundations. If what happens in the show rings has no impact on the commercial cattle business, then why have we had cattle shows all these years?

people have money to spend, and want to have fun doing it!!  great for learning- and letting eggos fly

Olsun,
you make good points, and thank you for the reminder on the history of the beef industry.  However, I don't believe commercial cow/calf producers are going down that road now.  The fact that Heat Wave calves are winning has no bearing on the bull they pick out of their seedstock producer's pen. 

BadgerFan

I dont care what feeder calf auction you go to, you roll in with a load of black hided attractive cattle with a little grow to them you will always top the market. I am not talking furry cripple midgets. I am talking good "two way" cattle that are angus based with a tic of maine simmy and even chi. They do exist.

yuppiecowboy said:

I dont care what feeder calf auction you go to, you roll in with a load of black hided attractive cattle with a little grow to them you will always top the market. I am not talking furry cripple midgets. I am talking good "two way" cattle that are angus based with a tic of maine simmy and even chi. They do exist.

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This point I will agree with.

I've posted carcass data on truckload lots of our calves that wind up in feedlots for the past three years.  I guess maybe I dont know what some of you raise up north, but good Texas/Ok show cattle do just fine both ways.

That being said, we are a little too short right now.  You can breed show steers where your good ones are still good, but you err on the side of too tall instead of too small. 

Another thing that will knock 15 - 20 cents off is roan or off color cattle.  

Heck our buyers around here are so particular they'll get you on a Hereford too.  

I think the cmmercial people prefer bwt's under 120# for sure.

Show Heifer said:

BadgerFan said:

olsun said:

the steer show judges set the trends for the commercial industry.

Click to expand...

Wrong.  Very wrong.  If you think the commercial industry gives two hoots about the results from any show you are sadly mistaken.  Sorry to be harsh, but it's the truth.

Click to expand...

Badger fan, you are so right. I just roll in total teas and laughter when I hear the show/clubbie people say their bloodlines "work in the real world".... apparently not in mine, or anyone else who deals with the real world!

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I dont have a problem with small framed cattle,infact in my particualr area im doing well marketing some lowline crosses on the rail directly to the consumer. However the birthweights are also very favorable. I could be totaly wrong as I dont know too much about the whole club calf craze but.....I was looking into using some clubby genetics in my PB Angus herd and found that birth weights are a MAJOR problem and most calves need to be pulled at birth. Again maybe im wrong but that is not practical in my "real world"  just my .02

aj said:

I think the cmmercial people prefer bwt's under 120# for sure.

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I dont think they mind the 120# calves as long as they dont have to touch them. Deiter's were the kings at selling bulls with 120# + BW. Most commercial cattlemen (if not all) don't weigh their calves anyway so they probably wouldn't know how much one weighed if they didnt have to help it.

"sigh"... I wondered how long it would take to wake the sleeping giant that is the lowline mafia on here. Niche marketing notwithstanding (I believe in it) and my wholly conceding that lowlines have a valuable place in profitable beef production (and will undoubtedly implement their genetics on my own program) does not change the fact that you will get buried at a stockyard with "puddy" calves.

Ever look through a Dieter bull sale catalog? They actually had sets of bulls with a disclaimer that had reported actual BW up to 150lbs. No joke. They sold those bulls to commercial guys with Angus and F1 baldies that could pop em out and wean off 800lb steer calves. Certainly not for me, but I will attest my personal experience with ChiAngus was that bw didnt matter as much as calf shape.

I have busted calf jacks and created side doors just like every ever other dream chaser on here that has ever dropped the hammer on a stick of HW, but I also know that if I had any brains at all I would be following Chambero's lead and selling my furry, lousy bottom end as my clubbies and letting the good ones do the heavy lifting at the market where checks dont bounce and buyers dont bitch.

I worked at a salebarn that sold 110-120k head of cattle every year.  When a set of cattle would come into the sorting alley, any clubby looking calf was usually sorted off with the the bad eyed, the southern looking, and the off colored cattle.  The buyers don't want them.  For them these cattle are too risky to give a premium for.  The guy I used to work and I sold all of our nonsale cattle to a feedlot conglomerate here in Nebraska for three or four years.  We recieved carcass data on these calves when these calves were finished.  It was interesting to be able to look through the list and see which cattle were the most productive and efficient feeders.  For us it was often the calves that were out of the angus or sim/angus cleanup bulls that put on the weight and finished quicker.  The guys who ran the feedlot told us it took alot longer for the clubby bred calves to finish, which in their world meant more money spent per/calf.  Not saying there werent some of these calves that didn't feed like the others, but you could just about look through the data and conclude that cow they were out of made a big difference as to why one heatwave would feed and another wouldn't.  This gave some valuable insight to what kind of cattle we were breeding...I'm not bashing the people who breed these types of cattle because I am one of them.  I grew up on a ranch in the middle of the Sandhills.  My dad is a 3rd generation rancher. I didn't grow up showing calves or knowing a thing about it until I work for my former boss after college.  When I moved back here last fall and brought my Dr. Who donor and reciept cows with me I think he thought I was nuts for all the messing around I was doing with them. The calves that looked like the best ones to my dad were the poorest ones I raised last year. Its a totally different type of cattle that gets it done in the showring as compared to hte feedlot.  I pulled 3/4ths of my Heatwave calves last year and loved every minute. Raising these calves definaitley gets in your blood.  I guess  I just go into it knowing if these calves don't go into the showring, I'll get docked at the barn on them.  Anyway, enough rambling.  Just my oppinion on the topic.

yuppiecowboy said:

"sigh"... I wondered how long it would take to wake the sleeping giant that is the lowline mafia on here. Niche marketing notwithstanding (I believe in it) and my wholly conceding that lowlines have a valuable place in profitable beef production (and will undoubtedly implement their genetics on my own program) does not change the fact that you will get buried at a stockyard with "puddy" calves.

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The only 1/2 blood Lowline steer that I ever sold at a sale barn (public auction) grossed $749 & some change at 11 months of age.  It came off a 1st calf Tarentaise heifer & after being weaned on forage, it was fed soy hulls & grass hay for the last 45-60 days.  Since I've only sold 1, & that was a few years ago, I may sell a handful more 1/2 bloods at a sale barn in a few weeks just to test the market.  If I do, I will report back, good or bad. 
   

TJ, I am not the enemy here, I am on your side. Fact is I just saw a load of steers weighing 825, bawling for mom, bring $1.09. Solid black, stout, few dot heads, all out of the clean up bulls from a "clubby" guys herd.

Clubby freaks dont work. Puddy midgets dont work. Quality attractive cattle always have and always will work and those genetics are not mutually exclusive.

Everybody I have ever known that adamantly claims "X works, and Y doesnt" unequivocally  seems to have a bull sale they want me to attend..