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Online mark tenenbaum

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Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
« Reply #120 on: February 04, 2019, 10:10:29 PM »
According to the RFD program, all the calves in the sire tests, 250ish, have came unassisted and so far 80% graded choice or higher. Some of the bulls that have been entered carry some thickness, might be worth browsing the results to pick one out E6.

Last I looked, it cost a pretty penny to nominate a bull for the test. I could be wrong this year but if the ASA is going to have a sire test, why does it cost the producer so much dinero? Why not let any breeder who thinks they have a bull worthy submit a cane of semen? Why charge a fee? Have an initial proposal put out by the ASA asking for bulls. After everybody has submitted a bull/ bulls, have a vote by the whole memebership via a online survey to make sure the breed is fully represented by the samples. Dont make money be the variable as to whether a bull is worthy of the test. Let peer reviewed decide. Why limit it with exaborant fees? The breed needs all the help it can get, not some arbitrary fee so the ASA and U of I can collect the cash.

10 bulls in the latest round of sire test. Thats ridiculous. I hope Monte reads SP. or whoever is in charge of that test.

Brock,
I was responsible for getting the ASA sire test program going. When I was chair of the Shorthorn plus committee I approached the U of I after Simmental and Charolais had done similar tests. I think it would be rude to discuss actual numbers, but lets just agree it was more than 20k and less than 50k for the U of I to let us participate. If you would have attended the sire test field day one of the things Matt discussed was the value of the test in actual dollars. I nominated my bull Imperative. He had 16 calves. For my $2,000 dollars I paid someone to collect all the performance data, DNA genotype the calves, collect data from the grow safe system, (which I don't have) and compare them to 14 other sires within the breed. So it cost me $125 a head. I am very comfortable with that. There is nowhere else that this is being done. Period. Compared to the Waukaru, Lovings, Jungels, Leveldale, etc I am a little fish in a big pond. I calve 25-30 cows a year. Last I checked they are all over 100. But I still feel like I have one of the best bulls in the breed, and it was time to prove it.

The ASA can't just drop that kind of money on a sire test. Heck that is a persons salary at the association. As breeders we have to "put up or shut up!" I wish our association could afford to offer this service, but they can't.  If you disagree with me that's fine. No hard feelings. It's a big cost. I just think it was worth it.//// -You would do fine if you could market that quality of beef after the fact somehow excluding by products-and be involved in something positive for your business and the breed O0
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 10:33:15 PM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline wiseguy

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Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
« Reply #121 on: February 04, 2019, 10:20:21 PM »
According to the RFD program, all the calves in the sire tests, 250ish, have came unassisted and so far 80% graded choice or higher. Some of the bulls that have been entered carry some thickness, might be worth browsing the results to pick one out E6.

Last I looked, it cost a pretty penny to nominate a bull for the test. I could be wrong this year but if the ASA is going to have a sire test, why does it cost the producer so much dinero? Why not let any breeder who thinks they have a bull worthy submit a cane of semen? Why charge a fee? Have an initial proposal put out by the ASA asking for bulls. After everybody has submitted a bull/ bulls, have a vote by the whole memebership via a online survey to make sure the breed is fully represented by the samples. Dont make money be the variable as to whether a bull is worthy of the test. Let peer reviewed decide. Why limit it with exaborant fees? The breed needs all the help it can get, not some arbitrary fee so the ASA and U of I can collect the cash.

10 bulls in the latest round of sire test. Thats ridiculous. I hope Monte reads SP. or whoever is in charge of that test.

Brock,
I was responsible for getting the ASA sire test program going. When I was chair of the Shorthorn plus committee I approached the U of I after Simmental and Charolais had done similar tests. I think it would be rude to discuss actual numbers, but lets just agree it was more than 20k and less than 50k for the U of I to let us participate. If you would have attended the sire test field day one of the things Matt discussed was the value of the test in actual dollars. I nominated my bull Imperative. He had 16 calves. For my $2,000 dollars I paid someone to collect all the performance data, DNA genotype the calves, collect data from the grow safe system, (which I don't have) and compare them to 14 other sires within the breed. So it cost me $125 a head. I am very comfortable with that. There is nowhere else that this is being done. Period. Compared to the Waukaru, Lovings, Jungels, Leveldale, etc I am a little fish in a big pond. I calve 25-30 cows a year. Last I checked they are all over 100. But I still feel like I have one of the best bulls in the breed, and it was time to prove it.

The ASA can't just drop that kind of money on a sire test. Heck that is a persons salary at the association. As breeders we have to "put up or shut up!" I wish our association could afford to offer this service, but they can't.  If you disagree with me that's fine. No hard feelings. It's a big cost. I just think it was worth it.

Great points by you and medium rare. Does the U of I give a break down for the reasons for the costs? Im sure the grow safe feeders were not cheap. But for the money they charge it would seem to me a good business venture to create a similar test station. I appreciate all the effort put into it, I just couldnt get my head around the costs. 14 bulls at 2k a bull is 28k. Who got the money when the calves were sold?


The cost was based on cows inseminated. Not on the number of live calves. U of I came up with this cost. I never received a break down. The cattle belong to the university, and receive all profits/ losses.

If Shorthorns don't utilize this opportunity other breeds are waiting in line to take our spot. At the same cost. The ASA did cover several expenses not associated with the U of I charge. Matt Woolfolk has a presentation about it. Email him. I bet he would send it to you.

When was the last time 150 head of shorthorn sired calves had complete performance, intake, and kill data in one group......?

I know people beat up on the ASA for WHR costs, TOC memberships, money spent on Jr. Nationals, not having a field rep, etc. Call your board of directors and make your opinions known.

Online knabe

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Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
« Reply #122 on: February 04, 2019, 10:26:27 PM »
https://shorthorn.org/university-of-illinois-sire-test/


extremely difficult to find much on the university of illinois websites.


web pages are not updated with recent data and you have to click through to find the updates.


not sure where to find what programs are, where the bull test is at which school


all in all, pretty sad websites
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 10:40:24 PM by knabe »

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Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
« Reply #123 on: February 05, 2019, 05:55:51 AM »
But somehow the association will find the money to send a fleet of nva employees to the world Shorthorn Congress or whatever its called this year in Australia but no money for print advertisement, no money for bull test, no money for anything of any value.  The reason dollar amounts cant be disclosed is because the ASA profited off this venture. 
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Online knabe

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Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
« Reply #124 on: February 05, 2019, 07:34:20 AM »
Break down the costs.


What should they be.

Offline mbigelow

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Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
« Reply #125 on: February 05, 2019, 09:08:28 AM »
Another thick bull was greenridge courier.

How much does it cost to produce a calf from conception to weaning. Then add the cost from weaning to harvest.  What does it cost to AI a cow, calving labor, weaning processing labor, feeding labor, harvesting labor and data collection.  What would this cost you if you tried to do it yourself.  I think it's a good deal if conception rates are at or above 75%.

Online mark tenenbaum

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Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
« Reply #126 on: February 05, 2019, 09:20:14 AM »
Years ago I bought K Kim Pleasure pass embryos on a red Dunbeacon Venture daughter of the really good margie you had at Denver,maybe 2003 or something.-She might have been sired by the Primetime bull you had from Bucholtz. The people who bought her from you were from Colorado. Things went South and I never picked them up-I always wondered how that would have turned out. I heard he moderated them and was deep bodied O0

Offline Hopster1000

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Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
« Reply #127 on: February 05, 2019, 10:35:23 AM »
https://shorthorn.org/university-of-illinois-sire-test/


extremely difficult to find much on the university of illinois websites.


web pages are not updated with recent data and you have to click through to find the updates.


not sure where to find what programs are, where the bull test is at which school


all in all, pretty sad websites

Would this be a starting point?

https://shorthorn.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Sire-Test-Update-Matt-April-2018.pdf

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
« Reply #128 on: February 05, 2019, 10:51:37 AM »
Another thick bull was greenridge courier.

How much does it cost to produce a calf from conception to weaning. Then add the cost from weaning to harvest.  What does it cost to AI a cow, calving labor, weaning processing labor, feeding labor, harvesting labor and data collection.  What would this cost you if you tried to do it yourself.  I think it's a good deal if conception rates are at or above 75%.

The data collection is the only cost you mention that should be absorbed by the ASA and its members.  The other cost should be assumed by whoever is profiting off the actual animal carcass. 

My contention is no so much the cost as it is the ASAs lack of prioritizing the value of the test by choosing not to contribute any funds towards it.
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Online mark tenenbaum

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Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
« Reply #129 on: February 05, 2019, 04:41:15 PM »
They've raised the  fees for everything so high nobody is sending the money they used to -lotta non whole reported herds-lotta non registries PERIOD-The cash flow situation is probably not very strong O0

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
« Reply #130 on: February 05, 2019, 05:51:36 PM »
Idk about cash flow but their total revenue isnt too shabby.     When theres enough revenue to expand the service side to include titles such as show director and youth activities director,  then theres gotta be enough to fund ventures such as the Illinois sire test.    When theres enough revenue to warrant funding for a brick-and-mortar establishment, one whose door has never had a single dollar walk through it, then theres enough to invest in the sire test.   When theres enough revenue to send the executive secretary and a fleet of other people to South America to a conference that doesnt generate one red cent for the association or its members,  well then, you get the point...  The association has plenty of money to work with- rather its the disgraceful misallocation of revenue that hamstrings actual useful investments such as the sire test. 
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Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
« Reply #131 on: February 05, 2019, 05:57:28 PM »
It goes back to what is the operative function of the association.  The current allocation is like a school district saying they dont have the funds for a math teacher, but then going out and spending more than the equivalent on a luncheon, for a handful of employees.   
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Online mark tenenbaum

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Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
« Reply #132 on: February 05, 2019, 07:35:10 PM »
https://shorthorn.org/university-of-illinois-sire-test/


extremely difficult to find much on the university of illinois websites.


web pages are not updated with recent data and you have to click through to find the updates.


not sure where to find what programs are, where the bull test is at which school


all in all, pretty sad websites

Would this be a starting point?//// YES IT WOULD GOOD SHOW-LIST OF ALL THE BULLS INVOLVED

https://shorthorn.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Sire-Test-Update-Matt-April-2018.pdf

Offline SEA

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Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
« Reply #133 on: February 05, 2019, 10:02:25 PM »
Double Vision.  True, he is Clubby and THC!  (I can not remember his PHA status?).  But THICK!  And that was the criteria of the original post.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 10:04:06 PM by SEA »

Online knabe

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Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
« Reply #134 on: February 05, 2019, 10:32:27 PM »

Would this be a starting point?//// YES IT WOULD GOOD SHOW-LIST OF ALL THE BULLS INVOLVED

https://shorthorn.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Sire-Test-Update-Matt-April-2018.pdf


so no other breeds. what do numbers mean with no other breeds.


ww seem low?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 10:34:15 PM by knabe »

 

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