Steer Planet - Show Steers and Club Calves Forum

Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: E6 Durhams on January 30, 2019, 08:55:57 AM

Title: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: E6 Durhams on January 30, 2019, 08:55:57 AM
Looking for opinions on the 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available to the open market. Bulls that consistently pass that thickness on to the calves. Birthweight doesnít matter. I want to know the power bulls available. Base width and a big ass. Nice thick top line.


Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: oakview on January 30, 2019, 11:37:14 AM
The bulls I have used that sired a lot of real, natural muscling, not just fluffed up hair, were Suds, Maxwell, Data Bank (3/4 blood, purebred Maine), and a 7/8 bull I raised sired by Etula (FB Maine).  He was something like 7/8 Shorthorn and 5/8 Maine.  His dam was a granddaughter of Dollar II (FB Maine).  He sired a lot of good steers for us.  I used Double Stuff (including just about Double everything), Outrageous, Windstar, you name it and all they did was sire hair and slow growing calves.  I used Leader Plus a little bit, but not enough to really pass judgement on the calves.  I have semen on most of those bulls and believe there would be some around on them. 
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Redwine Cattle on January 30, 2019, 01:29:54 PM
Look into Fringe. Thickest heifer we have ever had was sired by him. We flushed that cow to him and got 6 embryos, but haven't put any in yet. Don't have anything big enough on the farm to have that calf right now lol

Should be noted that we only had 1 calf out of him, so not a real big sample size, to say the least.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Duncraggan on January 30, 2019, 02:11:33 PM
Saw a mature picture of Muridale Thermal Energy when looking up some cattle yesterday on the internet, don't think there are many that will beat that!
HC Cruiser from JIT would take some beating too!
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 30, 2019, 03:41:40 PM
Hes talking clubby whale butted bulls-They arent maternal like thermal energy-seen a video of him too-when it comes to that kind of butt and mass-He just is not that type-Double Down Ante Up and Double Trouble put put some butt on them-have semen on all 3-Windstar did too-Double Downs are a little high gutted-Steer Maker can really put a square butt and amazing hip-the cow needs to be thick tho-too.If you have a clubby made female-JSF Guage will keep one thick-AND NOW-TODAY ONLY-MY FAVE RAVE- FRESH AIR 35 0 BW TRIPLE CLEAN powerbull from powerhouse females HES GOT  A TAIL BONE LIKE A WHALEBONE-and COMES FROM: AND HAS PRODUCED; IN LIMITED USE-REAL WORLD SOWS THAT ARE VERY SOUND-WIN SHOWS  THAT CAN RAISE A CALF  SOME OF THE X_BREDS AND SHORTS HAVE BEEN WHALE ASS THICK CATTLE-AND ABOUT THE ONLY TYPES LIKE THIS SINCE 10-15 years ago-HES GOT OLDSCHOOL MAINE-CLUBBY-JAZZ AND SIRED BY CREOLE--Id have to pm a history-Heres him-his 1800 pound triple clean Jazz Dam-and his oldscholl grandam-whos full sib had Polar Express-the freakiest Shorthorn (No I didnt say soundest etc) ever displayed at Denver There are less than 100 straws left on Fresh Air-Hes sired real deal good females on a bunch of different types and X-bred cows and I have a few pictures-JUST PUT YOUR HAND ON THE RADIO-AND THE OTHER ON YOUR CHECKBOOK  O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 30, 2019, 06:44:03 PM
Mirror mirror on the wall-Im so thick that I look small-(IM NOT) This is a bull Brad Davis wanted me to sell-So far he cant get papers-This picture is just off 25 Simm cows-hes been leased commercial and run hard as he@$%&*(()l all his life Hes a StarburstxSalutexdouble Vision-th pha free-Gotta be thickest esiest keeping young Shorthorn bull anywhere right now to be run the way he has -He doesnt have the performance of Fresh Air above-who was also THAT THICK-but Fresh Air died very young. This bull is a freak-YOU WANT CLUBBY-HES A BEAST-There are calves hitting the ground-semen is $50  O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: -XBAR- on January 30, 2019, 06:52:59 PM
Iím glad you started this post.  When you asked me the other night, I was honestly stumped. The RB bulls immediately came to mind, some of the Canadian Giants, but then nothing. 

Iím with you in that Iíd certainly like to add some thickness to my cowherd in general but Iím unwilling to assume the 100lb calves that it seems are inevitable with the heavier muscled Shorthorn bullsh.

I also find it interesting - well unfortunate really- that almost all the responses to the question were either clubby bulls or heavily fullblood maine influenced bulls.  Iím hoping to hear of some true beef bulls with reasonable calving ease.   I feel like I know a lot about the Shorthorn cattle Iím familiar with. But surely thereís a ton of shorthorn genetics out there that have never crossed my mind. I think if I had the time and money, Iíd try to sort the SH database, excluding a handful of genetics - that in my opinion just have absolutely nothing to offer me, and then go see all those active  breeders which are left.  With such limited Ďavenues of informationí for the breed, Iím not sure how else to do it.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Medium Rare on January 30, 2019, 07:29:52 PM
Not saying he belongs on the top 5 all time list, or that he's necessarily what I think of when I hear "power bull", but have you looked at any of the FSF or Near Perfect calves? I've noticed some that were pretty damn nice for their age and were definitely thick from the rear. He's got a few fans building in the southern regions after limited use and the calves I saw were nice enough I dropped a few straws in cows of the same type. The ds status and pedigree are worth mentioning if you plan to retain any calves or if your customers care.

I can think of a few modern bulls that come to mind, but I'd sure like to know their myostatin status to know if there's a reason it seems like they can be hit or miss on muscling.

I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of people looking for thickness, rear end, probably length, and overall muscling in the near future.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 30, 2019, 07:44:59 PM
Thats what alot of people are looking for-The Roan bull above is in some ways toungue and cheek-but he has been worked rougher and harder than that picture shows-He may not be your cup of tea-but hes one of the easiest keeping "purebred young Shorthorn bulls Ive seen' AND IVE SEEN ALOT OF THEM-all over the US in the last 50 plus years-CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE-and hes a Shorthorn leased by a commercial Simm based herd-in Iowa-not Canada-So if his calves come ok-(SIMMS ARE NOT CE CATTLE OVERALL ANYMORE THAN SHORTHORNS) then he aint all bad-Hes got more ass on him than any worked over bull of any breed that anyone wants to post-the prerequisit is one thats bred cows non stop since he was a yearling-2 weeks off cows.the poster wanted the thickest most extreme Shorthorn-HERES ONE THAT CAME UP IN COMMERCIAL CONDITIONS and he WILL MAKE TWO of about anything Ive seen coming from that background--What would he look like if hed been in a show barn all of his life? Ive got a picture of a 3 year old below that won Denver-WHICH ONE IS YOUR PICK FOR A REAL BULL? PS-LONG STORY SHORT-I havent been able to post the calves and daughters of Fresh Air-but he was the same thing-Very functional-good calver-very high quality calves out of a Hienz 57 array of females, 0 BW Epds In other words hes fine on second calvers just to be conservative-stemming from 2 of the most documented Shorthorn bulls by virtue of years of actvity and or sheer volume that WERE not just performance-epd cattle- GFS Creole and Jakes proud Jazz-His calves REALLY grow-they are proving to be good cows-hes thicker than anything you have used that I have seen-and will compliment the Canadian and in particularl the earlier Mclean Ranch-Goldwalk-Byland Dazzler type blood too-Whats the matter with a functional genuine thick bull with the goods? Now my last picture-The "thick" bull that won Denver Being from the CYT -Sullivan Breeding  has a bW EPD of 2.4 "or something" Hes a show-not commercial bull-and hes way fat-but as far as wanting one thats " thick butted" -bigger-and with BWS being no issue-hes as good as that breeding gets jmo JMO-hes thicker than some of the other bulls in that vein like the bull in a recent post from Canada that was a National Champ, Tuscaloosa, his andecedents such as Solution -Sonny, and UB Mad max-(who was DEFINITELY not CE-I raised him) etc Long story short-YOU ARE THE ONE THAT NEEDS AN OUTCROSS if you are going to change them-Otherwise they will continue to get narrower-thats why after 40 years the Byland cattle still arent very thick-Jungles etc because of the continuation in type of cattle that are not really thick--Thats where Enticer came from-rodeo , Goliath,etc-they eminated from quite simply the need to change and or improve with something  different from what they had been using-and ad desired type rather than compound the traits or direction the cattle were taking-not scientific-just cowboy 101. . O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 30, 2019, 07:53:59 PM
Not saying he belongs on the top 5 all time list, or that he's necessarily what I think of when I hear "power bull", but have you looked at any of the FSF or Near Perfect calves? I've noticed some that were pretty damn nice for their age and were definitely thick from the rear. He's got a few fans building in the southern regions after limited use and the calves I saw were nice enough I dropped a few straws in cows of the same type. The ds status and pedigree are worth mentioning if you plan to retain any calves or if your customers care.

I can think of a few modern bulls that come to mind, but I'd sure like to know their myostatin status to know if there's a reason it seems like they can be hit or miss on muscling./// Hes real thick-Ive seen a couple phenominal x-bred Char Crosses out of him too-Soundness is a recurring issue-and hes like alot of clubbies-pretty dinky. I think its very diffucult to have one that fills in all the blanks-The popular show cattle-and SORRY-many of the Canadian cattle-AINT GOT NO REAL BUTT-and are anything BUT-CE-THE SHORTHORNS THAT HAVE REAL THICKNESS FROM BEHIND-are probably not going to have a tremendous amount of length-but will hopefully have alot of depth of rib etc-seems like thats how the package unfolds-Gotta breed them to complimentary types that have what they lack and keep a balance of sorts BWS-SHAPES ETC  being PARAMOUNT on this bus O0


Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Doc on January 30, 2019, 09:28:59 PM
I'm agreeing with Suds. RB Eagle 148, Starburst along with a lot of the Farrer bulls, seen some thick Damn Prouds.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 30, 2019, 10:06:15 PM
Suds was hit or miss it depended alot on the cow-148 got his thickness from Chuck O Lucks Real Silver-a freak of nature whos dam had to have been walking a fence line and a full blood maine jumped the fence-Ice seen one picture of him-and he was nothing like his pedigree- NADA Maybe one of the better Eagles that I saw inperson was ML War Eagle that Gottchaulks had-Bought ten straws-just never got around to trying it the only Ferrer bulls ive seen in person were the full sib to Proud Jazz as a calf and his dam, she was really impressive-small tho.and Hardline-he was a very strong long yearling-They had Salutes full sib  there (I think) and Red Bull-full sib to heat wave-neither were in the same caregory as Hardline O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Redwine Cattle on January 31, 2019, 08:35:54 AM
This is interesting to me, I'm glad you started this, and I've spent a little time looking at the bulls currently available to the open market.

Disclaimer, we have used a bull that we raised the past 4 years, almost exclusively, so I haven't really looked at semen in awhile.

Nothing has changed. I don't see any new bulls that jump out to me as anything different than what was on the market 4 years ago. 95% are the same ones, new ones that were on there 4 years ago, have been removed. 

By necessity, our next bull needs to be an outcross to JPJ, I'm a little tired of the Trump - Solution - Sonny - Bloodstone genetics, however, where exactly does that leave me? I'm not a commercial breeder, my brother and I have 35 acres and 15 cows, we play around in the show calf deal and sell butcher beef with the ones that don't cut it. I have a Saskvalley Bonanza bull calf on the ground out of a really good Vortec heifer, but he looks like a baby calf out of a calving ease bull...
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 31, 2019, 10:11:54 AM
https://shorthorn.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&animal_registration=4203298 

  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tLKFLbWjgTHOyggzf6A3q2thWu1qHSsC/view?ts=5c3b91b9
      https://drive.google.com/file/d/1P71u9jaLXD0WJNIiDy1L8UvpsKbi-wqc/view?ts=5c3b9170
- This is a 9.5 month old March by DJS Outsider (Creole son Charismax Proud Jazzcx Mckkee females) and Fresh Airs maternal sister by Double Vision-That cow is only 3 and already has quite a production history Hiefer is a 5.8 frame-has jazz twice and is g daughter of Fresh Airs dam-these are really a powerfull couple females and shes bred somewhat like him. If you have any oldschool clubby descendents-this is what they would be made like-For my type-this is in the top 3-4 March heifers in the country He IS NOT LIKE ANYTHING STANDARD AVAILABLE OUT THERE-SHOW ME ONE LIKE HIM O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: -XBAR- on January 31, 2019, 12:12:04 PM
Look like steers to me
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 31, 2019, 02:54:36 PM
Video up above shows a very stout but fluid hiefer walking on cobbled up frozen ground to me-shes got too much grow to look like a steer: and is certainly sounder than most-Brads bull does-even though hes as big as alot of bulls that are pedestrian in breeding-But thats what he is supposed to look like-The bait on the hook in this thread is about-"I dont care about nothin but thick"-like many threads-no comment from the kid who wrote it LOLThe white one was 850 pounds at 9.5 months-thick cattle look like steers against frail ones every time-you want them wider? You breed them to wider cattle-pretty basic-Her dam  has as good an udder as any-They were second at the Nat Jr show-the white calf was called the best animal in the show- The first caf hiefer that was champ appendix pair (ratty angus bull got out and bred her) was the first pictured cows first calf-she also won Acksarban, Iowa, Division American Royal etc-These are good cows and they dont resemble steers to the judges or anyone who has seen them They are just powerfull cattle and extremely sound Back to changing frail ass cattle-Heres the bull that Leveldale used to turn things around-when thier cattle started looking like ayatollah trash   https://shorthorn.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&animal_registration=4072635  Arsulu Masterplan-  Think hes in any of their big time pedigrees??? NOW READ HIS PEDIGREE-his dam was as down and durty as you could make one-3/4 sister to Arsulu Cools Dam-but a great one in her own right-Ad Pacer who had alot of good cattle from back in the day including Byland Dazzlers Dam I saw her in person-If you think you are going to make them wider with other performance cattle (that have the sos breeding and are just based upon statistics)-you have a very long road ahead-and are not paying attention to the "handfull of breeders" who knew that with thier cattle O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: -XBAR- on January 31, 2019, 03:37:08 PM
 Too much grow to be a steer?  A line of cattle where  females are growthier than their male counterparts???  Never heard of such.

 That heifer looks androgynous and huge boned to me- not what I would consider as Ďthick.í   Maybe I have different interpretation idk.  The thick Iím talking about is still a proportionally configured animal.   One with shorter squarer head, deep jaw, wider top, as some rear base width.   A breeder you mention frequently at promised land cattle has a cow I believe sheís out of a Saskvalley stampede daughter and sired by a fullblood Maine bull.  This cow is what I have in mind.    She still has a balanced functional phenotype like youd expect to see with fertile production cattle- but sheís a much thicker version while still having a smooth fat cover.  As opposed to the globs of pone fat you see on these funky show cattle types.  Iíll see if I can find a pic.


Masterplan and his progeny were busts.   A buddy of mine bought a Roan son from Leveldale  that had a big ant eater head on him and was very hard doing.   I saw Leveldale righteous (after buying a 7k heifer of his) and he was without question the worst bull Iíve known of JsF using.  I do have a good daughter of his but sheís out of an ultra refined Alliance 7125 cow.  I donít believe Iíve seen any offspring out of righteous daughters in any of the JSF sales. 
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Redwine Cattle on January 31, 2019, 04:20:51 PM

Masterplan and his progeny were busts.   A buddy of mine bought a Roan son from Leveldale  that had a big ant eater head on him and was very hard doing.
 

Ant eater head....literally laughed out loud at that.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 31, 2019, 04:50:18 PM
Terrible picture at badger 2 months ago-Is one was reserve to a full grown pud-shes full sib to the creole that won all over last year-second blue -NO SHE DOESNT NORMALLY STAND LIKE THAThad 2 full sib steers sell in Iowa-at a sale in November with other breeds for 6600-and 14000 The third Crimson tide is a really correct sound heifer to be that thick-AGAIN bad picture-again thats what this thread is about-the white heifer DUH is last-PS-she was sold to Inndiana to people that SHOW CATTLE AND WIN-(the androgenenous unthick cliches have me laughing really Ive been online and seen your cattle-if you arent looking for actual advice from real time cattle that exist on a basic farm-to make them "wider"- these cattle MILK-they arent skinny and hardoing they raise and wean heavy calves that are stout-that do not go to the sale barn-that people want to buy THEY ARE DIFFERENT IN TYPE NOW-LETS SEE YOURS) The white hiefer was sold for 14000-at 6 months-Who the f#%&()K cares about the price-his wife came down with cancer that was that. All 4 of these calves are from the same 3 year old cow pictured with her 1st daughter-at the Jr Nationals Optical illusion they are both the same size-OH SEE THE SHORTHORN STEER COUNTERPART BESIDE THEM? Hes part of the clan too-AND HE AINT NO PUD Hes an April there at the junior Nationals-is a full dib to the three year old cow So-theres a 3 year old cow-that has already produced 4 really good matings out of entirely different breeds of bulls and a very good first calf hirfer (her first calf) standing next to her-(Ive got other pictures that really show them but am not going to waste my time) I want to see the cattle you have produced that address this post-to the letter of the " kids" request since he doesnt want to answer anyone"s input Maybe its a ***** wussy game to draw some llrgit cattle on that arent like his so he can poo poo them in comparison to so called "performance cattle"-Ive seen alot of interesting cattle at Promised Land-and some of the shorthorn by fullbloods would really hit with performance bred cattle-so would his blue crosses- I think that the bull he had out of K KIM Gold Version: PLCC GOLDSTANDARD that was shown at the Montana big show was really good-being appendix out of a cool 20 20 Vision x range cow made him all the more cool to me-thats another example of the type that will change them in alot of ways-especially  when it comes to width from behind  and since his sire was a very good performance deal-hes yet another point you are missing-prove me wrong  with pictures of yours from behind Yes I realize beauty is in the eye of the beholder-and no animal is perfect but these cattle are NOTHING like yours so trying to equate them to that vision aint gonna stand on this thread-even if it is a petty game. And your observations dont mean sh*&&$T until you back them up with solid examples of your cattle that fit this thread(pop) O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: ROMAX on January 31, 2019, 04:56:28 PM
Years ago someone posted a pasture pic of a shorthorn bull that was one of the most muscled up bull I have seen, I believe his name was American Muscle
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 31, 2019, 05:17:48 PM
I stopped in Ohio and saw American Muscle-he wasnt as extreme as the picture at all-but he was pretty stout-I was dissapointed when I got behind him He wasnt real wide great side profile-good natured too. The FREAK was Gizmos Image he was outrageous-lynnette Jane on here had a couple really thick stout cows out of him-but the owner was sort of a wierd guy and raised the semen to 150 a straw etc-dont think he had many takers LOL O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: E6 Durhams on January 31, 2019, 06:48:10 PM
Iím just reading and watching this unfold. I asked a question. I donít have an opinion on my question. Thatís why I asked the question lol. If you read the semen sales books on the angus, the new catch phrase seems to be ďbase widthĒ. Seems to me these bulls are being promoted because angus cattle at becoming to frail. Look at the post Aussie put up discussing this.

Shorthorns have clearly lacked base width and mass in general for decades. Why else would Maineís be brought in. I was just curious if there was any bulls that were outliers. But proven outliers. I read way too often a shorthorn calf was 95 plus pounds at birth and canít hit 600 at weaning. Thatís a big red flag. Page after page of angus bulls that are calving ease with some grow to em. So many different types in the angus breed. Shorthorn gene pool is much smaller so we will have to combine some fire and ice matings if we want to get some curve bender type cattle being marketed.

Last two years I used a son of Wolf Ridge Red Commander. He was out of a JSF Reload cow. He did a really good job here. Made some nice calves. I needed some money so I sold him last December to GaryBob. Calves have really finished well in general. I kept a heifer out of him to breed on and Linnette Jane has two heifers out of the bull from last year. Itís like Heath said earlier. Where do we go from here? You can breed the SULL cattle or you can try and breed something different.

I started this thread to just have folks throw out bulls they think could work. I certainly donít have any intentions to come on here and tell others my cattle are better than theirs. 😎
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: -XBAR- on January 31, 2019, 07:53:32 PM
Terrible picture at badger 2 months ago-Is one was reserve to a full grown pud-shes full sib to the creole that won all over last year-second blue -NO SHE DOESNT NORMALLY STAND LIKE THAThad 2 full sib steers sell in Iowa-at a sale in November with other breeds for 6600-and 14000 The third Crimson tide is a really correct sound heifer to be that thick-AGAIN bad picture-again thats what this thread is about-the white heifer DUH is last-PS-she was sold to Inndiana to people that SHOW CATTLE AND WIN-(the androgenenous unthick cliches have me laughing really Ive been online and seen your cattle-if you arent looking for actual advice from real time cattle that exist on a basic farm-to make them "wider"- these cattle MILK-they arent skinny and hardoing they raise and wean heavy calves that are stout-that do not go to the sale barn-that people want to buy THEY ARE DIFFERENT IN TYPE NOW-LETS SEE YOURS) The white hiefer was sold for 14000-at 6 months-Who the f#%&()K cares about the price-his wife came down with cancer that was that. All 4 of these calves are from the same 3 year old cow pictured with her 1st daughter-at the Jr Nationals Optical illusion they are both the same size-OH SEE THE SHORTHORN STEER COUNTERPART BESIDE THEM? Hes part of the clan too-AND HE AINT NO PUD Hes an April there at the junior Nationals-is a full dib to the three year old cow So-theres a 3 year old cow-that has already produced 4 really good matings out of entirely different breeds of bulls and a very good first calf hirfer (her first calf) standing next to her-(Ive got other pictures that really show them but am not going to waste my time) I want to see the cattle you have produced that address this post-to the letter of the " kids" request since he doesnt want to answer anyone"s input Maybe its a ***** wussy game to draw some llrgit cattle on that arent like his so he can poo poo them in comparison to so called "performance cattle"-Ive seen alot of interesting cattle at Promised Land-and some of the shorthorn by fullbloods would really hit with performance bred cattle-so would his blue crosses- I think that the bull he had out of K KIM Gold Version: PLCC GOLDSTANDARD that was shown at the Montana big show was really good-being appendix out of a cool 20 20 Vision x range cow made him all the more cool to me-thats another example of the type that will change them in alot of ways-especially  when it comes to width from behind  and since his sire was a very good performance deal-hes yet another point you are missing-prove me wrong  with pictures of yours from behind Yes I realize beauty is in the eye of the beholder-and no animal is perfect but these cattle are NOTHING like yours so trying to equate them to that vision aint gonna stand on this thread-even if it is a petty game. And your observations dont mean sh*&&$T until you back them up with solid examples of your cattle that fit this thread(pop) O0

This is one of your more bizarre post I've ever seen.  If you'll go back and READ my initial post on this page, you'll see how strange and unwarranted most of your comments here are:

Iím with you in that Iíd certainly like to add some thickness to my cowherd in general...

Equally bizarre is how you keep referring to the OP as a kid.  You must have also missed:
Iím glad you started this post.  When you asked me the other night, I was honestly stumped.

Do you really think I spend my evening talking to kids? The OP is a 40+ yr old man you're talking about. 

I'm not sure what it is "I'm to prove you wrong about?"  Again another bizarro comment.  Maybe the show steer type females address the OP's question but I find that, like I said previously, unfortunate, that these types are our only option??

Imagine if the question were about Angus bulls to add thickness-- Bulls that would come to my mind would be those like Ohlde's or one like Coleman Charlo. Bulls that are of the TYPE that cattleman still value. You know, bulls that look like male powerlifters as opposed to your go to: the butch dyke softball looking types.  But no -- not in Shorthorns.  In Shorthorns, if you want to thicken: as in develop more of a beef phenotype less dairy- you have the clubby show steer types and that's it? What a joke.  Surely this isn't so.

Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 31, 2019, 08:16:51 PM
The cattle I shared all have real world performance and are not really clubby in terms of what they actually do everyday-and I think youd have a tuff time competing against any of the cattle in Iowa I showed on a commercial basis You dont have the foresight to think beyond your narrow cattle-so why should anyone waste anymore time making suggestions niether of you have any intention of doing anything but trying to belittle others who try and offer opinions that both of you asked for -Ive seen your cattle-Iowa has been in drauth for several years-it was 30 plus below  yesturday not including wind- THEY ARE JUST EXAMPLES of what the "KID" asked for-and until you come up with any concrete visual proof of YOUR cattle that you are basing as some kind of example to compare against these myriad examples I took the time to ad- and added in the naive and innocent expectations of trying to address a legitimate question then I would have to say start using Angus probably more kindred spirits than Shorthorn people anyway. but this thread was specifically about the 5 widest thickest Shorthorns any way-I think interms of example-you are making some pretty pompous broad statements about cattle that will overwhelm yours in that department INCLUDING BIRTHWTS (see bizare comment TONGUE AND CHEEK RE Kid)   O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: -XBAR- on January 31, 2019, 09:42:44 PM
The cattle I shared all have real world performance and are not really clubby in terms of what they actually do everyday-and I think youd have a tuff time competing against any of the cattle in Iowa I showed on a commercial basis You dont have the foresight to think beyond your narrow cattle-so why should anyone waste anymore time making suggestions niether of you have any intention of doing anything but trying to belittle others who try and offer opinions that both of you asked for -Ive seen your cattle-Iowa has been in drauth for several years-it was 30 plus below  yesturday not including wind- THEY ARE JUST EXAMPLES of what the "KID" asked for-and until you come up with any concrete visual proof of YOUR cattle that you are basing as some kind of example to compare against these myriad examples I took the time to ad- and added in the naive and innocent expectations of trying to address a legitimate question then I would have to say start using Angus probably more kindred spitits than Shorthorn people anyway. but this thread was specifically about Shorthorns (see bizare comment TONGUE AND CHEEK RE Kid)   O0

not "really" clubby.   LOL  whatever "really" means.   I can't speak for the OP but I just added that I was hoping there were some beef bull options.  I included a picture of an Angus bull as a REFERENCE to what I was speaking to/describing in terms of "thickness."  There's nothing bizarre about that.  And competing against "cattle in Iowa!?!" Get real! Where do you come up with this stuff- you bring those big fuzzy eared types down and see how they handle Texas in August. 

I hope you've seen the cattle you speak to more than you claim to have seen mine- as outside of a facebook post or two- I've never even seen you much less a time when you were around my cows. 

The OP's question was legitimate.  My question was legitimate.  Anyone is welcome to continue posting clubby options. Perhaps that what the OP was looking for?  I'm just not interested in them-- I'm interested in beef bulls-  hopefully some similar to the REFERENCE sire I posted are out there.  If you know of any, please chime in .
   
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: E6 Durhams on January 31, 2019, 09:45:12 PM
Iím not really interested in clubby type stuff but if one is found to be useful in real world conditions then by all means post away. I was hoping to identify bulls either forgotten, underused or used wrongly that were wider based and put some ass on them. Iím not posting to set somebody up. I am just trying to identify bulls outside the box if you will. Maybe a four or five year old bull thatís really out produced himself. Youíve promoted lots of bulls on here Mark. Most have fizzled out for one reason or another.

This was just a thread about brainstorming. Not triggering somebodyís feelings.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 31, 2019, 10:05:29 PM
Name the ones I have talked about that fizzeled and name the Shorthorn bulls you have been involved with that had ANY impact on the breed-hate to talk National or Louisville  champions Ive only been involved with 6 of those and bring your texas cattle up to southern kansas where my cows are in august-its hotter-no on second thought bring them now when its ten below zero-just dont get laughed out of the show ring-we do that on a national level along with weighing every calf and having real EPDS on the cattle-we have black crosses-heavens dont let friends cross breed or use cross bred bulls-we have friends across alot of breeds-we like farmers in general and grew up on a handshake-you clearly come from another generation. I suggest you take all the backtracking adjectives that you have just used to reinvent your thread in the last minute-and commit them to the algorthym down below-or basically state in your thread that you do not want anything but Angus and Native Shorthorn answers to your question or only those bloodlines specific to your interest and all others are unworthy of your consideration- O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: kiblercattle on January 31, 2019, 10:11:25 PM
A bull we used lightly but in hindsight we should have used more was gb daybreak express. He was a fairly easy calving bull that would really put some ass in them. Not the round clubby ass but one when you got behind them they stood with lots of width and top. He left some nice cows that stayed in good shape in our dry grass country.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 31, 2019, 10:22:29 PM
Thank you kibler and I remember a few years ago you said something about him -he is still in use and was a very good bull-There is another LOW BW promotion bull by ALM Chiller out of a Daybreak cow due out in 2019 up in Wisconsin A lot of clubby breeders used him because he was an EZ calver-but he sure threw some good females and thick ones-had some Lincoln Red  back there in his dam-Ive posted on him before-Brockmueller was a really good guy and had thick no non sense cattle-something the pictures above us on this thread  are sadly missing at least the Shorthorns I see-the 2 Black ear cows are the only ones that arent bags of bones LOL
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: wiseguy on January 31, 2019, 11:16:35 PM
I think when you say top 5 power bulls in the breed this guy has to be in the discussion. Saskvalley Imperative 33X. Exceptional growth, WW and YW trait leader, and top 25% REA., He sires bulls that look like bulls, and females that look like cows. Out of 16 progeny in the ASA sire test he sired 2 primes, 13 choice, and 1 select. $136 BMI

Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: E6 Durhams on January 31, 2019, 11:55:58 PM
Name the ones I have talked about that fizzeled and name the Shorthorn bulls you have been involved with that had ANY impact on the breed-hate to talk National or Louisville  champions Ive only been involved with 6 of those and bring your texas cattle up to southern kansas where my cows are in august-its hotter-no on second thought bring them now when its ten below zero-just dont get laughed out of the show ring-we do that on a national level along with weighing every calf and having real EPDS on the cattle-we have black crosses-heavens dont let friends cross breed or use cross bred bulls-we have friends across alot of breeds-we like farmers in general and grew up on a handshake-you clearly come from another generation. I suggest you take all the backtracking adjectives that you have just used to reinvent your thread in the last minute-and commit them to the algorthym down below-or basically state in your thread that you do not want anything but Angus and Native Shorthorn answers to your question or only those bloodlines specific to your interest and all others are unworthy of your consideration- O0

Go home dude. Youíre drunk. Funny Iíve never read once where you alone did anything. Seems to me you pay people to raise your cattle and clip your calves. Then you show up at the show like some kingpin. I tried to be nice earlier. I liked the Compton Fresh Air bull. Even sent his picture in a private group text. But since I didnít kiss the ring on this public forum Iím now just being a punk. Ok. I donít care if I ever raise a national champ show bull. I sure as hell wonít pay somebody to raise my cattle either. Itís bedn below zero here for two days. Cows here get fed every other day. They donít get any special care. I can promise you itís colder here in Ohio than Kansas!
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 01, 2019, 08:18:43 AM
Very logical and directed comment-you dont have anything intelligent to say so you resort to childish babble like I said-different generation and like you said in the other thread "I have nothing to ad"-That all you got?go tweet on your I phone Junior  O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: oakview on February 01, 2019, 09:11:35 AM
Yet another example of why so many people have quit participating on SP, as if we needed another one.  A guy asks a simple question, several of us offered our opinions that we were asked for, and the thread turns into a pissing match.  It's no wonder it's hard to sell Shorthorns.  According to SP, there's not a good Shorthorn out there except the one "I" own.  Whatever "you" have is terrible.  Has there ever been a thread on SP trashing an Angus bull?  Hereford?  Simmental?  If people would spend more time promoting the absolutely incredible data from the latest MARC research instead of trashing each other, we'd be much better off.  Shorthorns were #1 in just about every performance and carcass trait compared to Angus, Red Angus, Hereford, Char., etc.  Would it be so difficult to get the word out on that instead of how terrible everybody else's cattle are and how stupid they are for raising them?
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 01, 2019, 09:26:27 AM
I certainly didnít want this result. Iíve been busy plowing snow and preparing to move. I also raise hogs and I may not raise national champions. I do raise hogs that chefs buy. Hogs have paid for my cows. I made my own pig. Just as I intend to make my own cows. Cattle just take forever.

I was hoping to just brainstorm. Not be talked down to by a racist old bitter man. I apologize for the drama. It wasnít my intention. I agree with oak view on promoting the data. I donít think there are bulls in existence yet for what I have in my mind. I had an idea for a pig and I made it. I took several different breeds. Line bred the good ones and made an excellent hog. 11 piglets per litter. Sows donít need heat lamps or farrowing pens. They go out to the woods and farrow alone and return when they are ready. Fat hogs hit 275-300 at six months. Excellent carcass too. I had to make that hog. Just as I want to make a better shorthorn.

That was the whole reason for my post.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: oakview on February 01, 2019, 09:46:39 AM
That's what this website should be for.  Getting useful information to help us reach the goals we want to reach.  More power to you.  I used to raise hogs, too.  We had a rotation of Hamps, Yorks, and Durocs.  Seemed to work pretty good with the long ago traits of each complimenting the other.  By the way, I don't have hogs any more and I don't miss them.  They can quickly turn a normal, sane human being into a raving lunatic.

Forgot to mention, I really like that Saskvalley Imperative bull.  We should be able to move a truckload of bulls like him.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: -XBAR- on February 01, 2019, 09:59:05 AM
Yet another example of why so many people have quit participating on SP, as if we needed another one.  A guy asks a simple question, several of us offered our opinions that we were asked for, and the thread turns into a pissing match.  It's no wonder it's hard to sell Shorthorns.  According to SP, there's not a good Shorthorn out there except the one "I" own.  Whatever "you" have is terrible.  Has there ever been a thread on SP trashing an Angus bull?  Hereford?  Simmental?  If people would spend more time promoting the absolutely incredible data from the latest MARC research instead of trashing each other, we'd be much better off.  Shorthorns were #1 in just about every performance and carcass trait compared to Angus, Red Angus, Hereford, Char., etc.  Would it be so difficult to get the word out on that instead of how terrible everybody else's cattle are and how stupid they are for raising them?

 I think itís important to accurately describe the cattle being spoken about.    There are a lot of Shorthorn cattle that the breed would be better off if they were to have their head cut off tomorrow.  I mean a very large number who have a trait that,  regardless how good they are otherwise , should completely exclude them from consideration in any beef production dynamic.   Birth weights, mature cow size, lack of sexual dimorphism, etc.   So long as these types continue to be sugarcoated and not singled out, it will be challenging to ever solidify a publicly recognized distinction between these types and those you referenced that excelled in the Marc research.   Itís hard to sell Shorthorns because unfortunately these types that need their head cut off are the majority and are thus the public perception of what the breed as a whole has to offer.   Itís as unfortunate as it gets. 
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 01, 2019, 10:00:30 AM
Terrible picture at badger 2 months ago-Is one was reserve to a full grown pud-shes full sib to the creole that won all over last year-second blue -NO SHE DOESNT NORMALLY STAND LIKE THAThad 2 full sib steers sell in Iowa-at a sale in November with other breeds for 6600-and 14000 The third Crimson tide is a really correct sound heifer to be that thick-AGAIN bad picture-again thats what this thread is about-the white heifer DUH is last-PS-she was sold to Inndiana to people that SHOW CATTLE AND WIN-(the androgenenous unthick cliches have me laughing really Ive been online and seen your cattle-if you arent looking for actual advice from real time cattle that exist on a basic farm-to make them "wider"- these cattle MILK-they arent skinny and hardoing they raise and wean heavy calves that are stout-that do not go to the sale barn-that people want to buy THEY ARE DIFFERENT IN TYPE NOW-LETS SEE YOURS) The white hiefer was sold for 14000-at 6 months-Who the f#%&()K cares about the price-his wife came down with cancer that was that. All 4 of these calves are from the same 3 year old cow pictured with her 1st daughter-at the Jr Nationals Optical illusion they are both the same size-OH SEE THE SHORTHORN STEER COUNTERPART BESIDE THEM? Hes part of the clan too-AND HE AINT NO PUD Hes an April there at the junior Nationals-is a full dib to the three year old cow So-theres a 3 year old cow-that has already produced 4 really good matings out of entirely different breeds of bulls and a very good first calf hirfer (her first calf) standing next to her-(Ive got other pictures that really show them but am not going to waste my time) I want to see the cattle you have produced that address this post-to the letter of the " kids" request since he doesnt want to answer anyone"s input Maybe its a ***** wussy game to draw some llrgit cattle on that arent like his so he can poo poo them in comparison to so called "performance cattle"-Ive seen alot of interesting cattle at Promised Land-and some of the shorthorn by fullbloods would really hit with performance bred cattle-so would his blue crosses- I think that the bull he had out of K KIM Gold Version: PLCC GOLDSTANDARD that was shown at the Montana big show was really good-being appendix out of a cool 20 20 Vision x range cow made him all the more cool to me-thats another example of the type that will change them in alot of ways-especially  when it comes to width from behind  and since his sire was a very good performance deal-hes yet another point you are missing-prove me wrong  with pictures of yours from behind Yes I realize beauty is in the eye of the beholder-and no animal is perfect but these cattle are NOTHING like yours so trying to equate them to that vision aint gonna stand on this thread-even if it is a petty game. And your observations dont mean sh*&&$T until you back them up with solid examples of your cattle that fit this thread(pop) O0

This is one of your more bizarre post I've ever seen.  If you'll go back and READ my initial post on this page, you'll see how strange and unwarranted most of your comments here are:

Iím with you in that Iíd certainly like to add some thickness to my cowherd in general...

Equally bizarre is how you keep referring to the OP as a kid.  You must have also missed:
Iím glad you started this post.  When you asked me the other night, I was honestly stumped.

Do you really think I spend my evening talking to kids? The OP is a 40+ yr old man you're talking about. 

I'm not sure what it is "I'm to prove you wrong about?"  Again another bizarro comment.  Maybe the show steer type females address the OP's question but I find that, like I said previously, unfortunate, that these types are our only option??

Imagine if the question were about Angus bulls to add thickness-- Bulls that would come to my mind would be those like Ohlde's or one like Coleman Charlo. Bulls that are of the TYPE that cattleman still value. You know, bulls that look like male powerlifters as opposed to your go to: the butch dyke softball looking types.  But no -- not in Shorthorns.  In Shorthorns, if you want to thicken: as in develop more of a beef phenotype less dairy- you have the clubby show steer types and that's it? What a joke.  Surely this isn't so./// No it it is not-used Irish bulls like Guiness and Dividend-a fullblood Maine called Vistas Sentra-Enticerx Mark 4-Mad Max but he was pretty big-The bull you are looking for with that type of thickness does not exist in the breed with the kind of pedigrees you are using;and will not suddenly appear in theory or with absolute purity and years of perfect EPDS-The fresh air bull was not really clubby-and was over 2400 pounds mature-Your definition of clubby includes anything that isnt pedestrian conventional breeding limited to your type of  cattle  been there-dont need  to hear about it again You should stay inside the box and compound what you have and redefine width and thick to make em thick at least in your mind-Or the best thing to make them look like that Angus is use one like him,and create mongrels that are twice as stout as what you have now-he reminds me of the ones I see from Canada like cowboy or the soo line cattle and a possible type to use Re the thread about frail Angus heifers Or use a fullblood maine-they work great on dual looking cows-as long as they arent pencil gutted. Thats where Mark 4 and alot of the oldtime thick cows came from Before your time even though in the past you used some of the same blood-evena great grandson of Deertrail Awesome if Im not mistaken- O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: SEA on February 01, 2019, 10:35:21 AM
JASON,  THIS POST/THREAD HAS GOTTEN OUT OF HAND.  WOULD YOU PLEASE CONSIDER REMOVING IT?  THANK YOU!
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: -XBAR- on February 01, 2019, 11:15:35 AM
JASON,  THIS POST/THREAD HAS GOTTEN OUT OF HAND.  WOULD YOU PLEASE CONSIDER REMOVING IT?  THANK YOU!

Jason this is the third post SEA has made that lacked any relevancy whatsoever to the discussion at hand.  Please have a talk with her.

(Obviously this is a joke as I have no interest in censoring anyone elseís opinions) Unlike mother hen above.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 01, 2019, 11:24:41 AM
Discussion? Relevent? SEA has a right to ad any opinion just like anyone else without condecending comments-XLAX Bitter? Racist? Drunk? What we really need is JITs take on this thread LOl O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: -XBAR- on February 01, 2019, 11:37:13 AM
Reading comprehension isnít your strong suit eh? My prior post had 3 sentences.  Itís as if you only read two, hit the bottle (again,) and then went back to typing.  Do yourself a favor and read posts more thoroughly- and in their entirety.  Itíll save you from a lot of confusion going forward.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 01, 2019, 11:46:20 AM
Name the ones I have talked about that fizzeled and name the Shorthorn bulls you have been involved with that had ANY impact on the breed-hate to talk National or Louisville  champions Ive only been involved with 6 of those and bring your texas cattle up to southern kansas where my cows are in august-its hotter-no on second thought bring them now when its ten below zero-just dont get laughed out of the show ring-we do that on a national level along with weighing every calf and having real EPDS on the cattle-we have black crosses-heavens dont let friends cross breed or use cross bred bulls-we have friends across alot of breeds-we like farmers in general and grew up on a handshake-you clearly come from another generation. I suggest you take all the backtracking adjectives that you have just used to reinvent your thread in the last minute-and commit them to the algorthym down below-or basically state in your thread that you do not want anything but Angus and Native Shorthorn answers to your question or only those bloodlines specific to your interest and all others are unworthy of your consideration- O0

Go home dude. Youíre drunk. Funny Iíve never read once where you alone did anything. Seems to me you pay people to raise your cattle and clip your calves. Then you show up at the show like some kingpin. I tried to be nice earlier. I liked the Compton Fresh Air bull. Even sent his picture in a private group text. But since I didnít kiss the ring on this public forum Iím now just being a punk. Ok. I donít care if I ever raise a national champ show bull. I sure as hell wonít pay somebody to raise my cattle either. Itís bedn below zero here for two days. Cows here get fed every other day. They donít get any special care. I can promise you itís colder here in Ohio than Kansas!//// Have to check the weather map-but I was referring to Texas in the tread anyway
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 01, 2019, 11:52:15 AM
Reading comprehension isnít your strong suit eh? My prior post had 3 sentences.  Itís as if you only read two, hit the bottle (again,) and then went back to typing.  Do yourself a favor and read posts more thoroughly- and in their entirety.  Itíll save you from a lot of confusion going forward.
/// I must be-is it XLAX or EXLAX-my spelling must be bad too-maybe you were just showing  a humorous side calling a lady mother hen-In this modern world a woman's place must still be in the home O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: -XBAR- on February 01, 2019, 11:58:40 AM
Mother hen: a person who sees to the needs of others, especially in an interfering way.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Dale on February 01, 2019, 01:07:04 PM
Back to topic.  I have not seen him, but would RB Eagle 255 be one to consider?  With Real Silver both top and bottom of his pedigree, his thickness is not an accident.  255's sire, Eagle 148, sure sired plenty of muscle.  If JSF used 255, he is functional, and might save you time in the long run compared to using a sire not triple clean or one that is less sound. 

"Breeding cattle takes a lifetime," as a bull customer purebred breeder once said.  One master breeder said that it takes 5 or 6 generations to breed out unsoundness.  Sound ones are easier to look at.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Duncraggan on February 01, 2019, 01:33:03 PM
"Breeding cattle takes a lifetime," as a bull customer purebred breeder once said.  One master breeder said that it takes 5 or 6 generations to breed out unsoundness.  Sound ones are easier to look at.
I think this this rates as one of those 'nuggets' we should all remember!
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 01, 2019, 01:55:36 PM
I was at Denver in 2004 when they had him there and I was dragging people over to look at him-Jungels never said a word-he was young then and had his hat pulled over his eyes probably thought I was a doofus YEA YEA he was forth in my class, Bloodstone was second I won and had the nt. spring calf champ-my bull was a big pet for an Angus family but just didnt knick with horns-If i could fault the Eagle bull as a show bull he did have some curvature in his spine but I really liked him. Of course it doesnt matter what you say-because his BW EPDS are above average-Even tho he will make 2 of alot of bulls.So now that this thread has had some extended modifications of required responses:My choice for; (a THICK BUTTED, STOUT, MANY GENERATIONS  DOCUMENTED. PROBABLY LOWEST BW EPD CE BULL LISTED, WITH GOOD NUMBERS IN ALMOST EVERY CATEGORY )  IS-DING DING DING-Homeplace HOT COMMODITY-See the thread on him here on page 2 for pics friends and neighbors  http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/homeplace-hot-commoity-1625-this-is-another-one-that-needs-collected/. (http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/homeplace-hot-commoity-1625-this-is-another-one-that-needs-collected/.) I also maintain that the Fresh Air bull is another very useful bull. He has been very similar in BWs and much higher in real grow than his EPDS predict.-So-if I get a heifer by Fresh Air-she gets bred to Dales bull-Two distinctly different recent pedigrees that merge closer to each other.Hotcommdity: a little further back : Fresh Air through his sire Creole; and grandsire-Proud Jazz. They are both  examples of how you do what the original thread here asked for and ;I dont see: for my use, 2 bulls that are more complimentary-Hot Commodity is more moderate,maybe a little shorter and less extreme-but has a very nice profile looks very sound smooth shouldered ,real deep ribbed,and has-THE KIND OF BUTT I WANT from his Wildside dam Fresh Air is a bigger rugged made longer bodied bull,and heavier boned bull who is a good calver-very sound,makes show heifers that make cows-and very powerfull in his top-butt, lower 1/3 and general muscle pattern-BOTH bulls also have the kind of performance-or old blood cattle behind them that have worked for 30 years. If you look at both pedigrees and remember the RodeoxEnticer cattle like creole-Byland Mission, Keith Lauer bulls etc-they are all in-and they are the ones that unilaterally were reasonable calving and heavily documented . Not to mention having some of the highest yield grades on the ORIGINAL rounds of the Marc study of the late 80s early nineties .DOC on here has another Hot Commodity-that sires some nice calves(also pictured) and would fit this thread as well JMO- O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 01, 2019, 02:16:11 PM
"Breeding cattle takes a lifetime," as a bull customer purebred breeder once said.  One master breeder said that it takes 5 or 6 generations to breed out unsoundness.  Sound ones are easier to look at.
I think this this rates as one of those 'nuggets' we should all remember!   (clapping) (clapping) (thumbsup) <beer> O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 01, 2019, 02:28:23 PM
I guess I should of specified earlier but purple banners are useless for this thread. Iím talking  red meat. More retail product. My guest isnít to make a national champ.  My goal is to create a shorthorn that can be sold as premium beef. To promote the breed on its merits. Top one being the eating experience. As a small producer the first way out of business is to sell mediocre meat to people. If itís not excellent they wonít return. Same needs to be thought of with the breed. It will take time. I can make 15-20 years worth of cattle breeding progress in 3-5 years with hogs. I know what I want to do will take a very long time. If shorthorns are to ever get rid of their Cleveland Browns reputation of the cattle world we have to start somewhere. Find the chink in the armor of the angus breed and exploit it.

Oakview, my hogs are 75% heritage breeds with a few shots of high growth Duroc. Iíve used Large Black for frame, Old spot, Red Wattle, and the last few years Mangalitsa. My hogs are trained to hot wire and they spend the majority of time outside. I find hogs kept in pens become restless and bored and then destructive and mean. I have a spring here at the farm that the hogs use all year round. I never have to water them. I just feed some grain every day and put out some round bales of hay. The only part thatís tricky is weaning time. The sows donít like it and they let you know it.

Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: kiblercattle on February 01, 2019, 04:01:22 PM
If you looking for red meat then imperative is probably as good a choice as anything going today. Wises have some pretty good data on how his calves preform.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Hopster1000 on February 01, 2019, 05:09:44 PM
Thought I would post a bull from the UK. Bred by the Upsall herd in England and bought by Fearn Farm in Scotland. Dakota Of Upsall.

http://abri.une.edu.au/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=3E373E3D&2=232F5F&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=275C5C265921252421&9=5C5C5E5E (http://abri.une.edu.au/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=3E373E3D&2=232F5F&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=275C5C265921252421&9=5C5C5E5E)

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=794176747365536&id=464311627018718&_rdr (https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=794176747365536&id=464311627018718&_rdr)

The Facebook video is worth a watch. I know he's not available to North America, but he is thick, has a lot of natural muscle, is considered easy calving and has some of the best figures in the breed. Sadly he's gone now, but he has left a son, Fearn Godfather, an impressive bull also, who Fearn Farm recently bought him back for £20,000.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: huntaway on February 01, 2019, 05:16:35 PM
The bull I have used for a number of years to attempt to add thickness is The Grove Kookaburra and he looks to be doing a good job for some in Canada. Haven't seen the Muridale bulls in another post from behind but they sure look good from a profile photo.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: coyote on February 01, 2019, 05:53:29 PM
This is one of our thickest bulls we have raised Muridale Matt 37Y. He is Myostatin free.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: huntaway on February 01, 2019, 06:09:15 PM
This is one of our thickest bulls we have raised Muridale Matt 37Y. He is Myostatin free.
Hard to imagine any more meat put on that frame
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Medium Rare on February 01, 2019, 06:11:42 PM
The bull I have used for a number of years to attempt to add thickness is The Grove Kookaburra and he looks to be doing a good job for some in Canada. Haven't seen the Muridale bulls in another post from behind but they sure look good from a profile photo.

I used a son of his that Diamond raised and am pretty impressed with one of his calves in the yearling pen. He always had a big top, but he is really putting on the rear.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 01, 2019, 06:45:06 PM
This is one of our thickest bulls we have raised Muridale Matt 37Y. He is Myostatin free.
//// Any pictures of female progeny? hes way unique thats for sure O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: idalee on February 01, 2019, 06:55:38 PM
Looks impressive!   However,  the same muscle mass on a Frame Score 7 and a Frame Score 5 will look wildly different.    What is his Frame Score?
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 01, 2019, 06:59:24 PM
If his legs were twice as long Hed still look freaky-like to see him from behind O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: coyote on February 01, 2019, 07:20:49 PM
I found a picture of a Matt 2 yr old daughter. The bottom picture is Matts dam.
I never measured him but I would guess he would be a frame 6
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: kiblercattle on February 01, 2019, 07:27:06 PM
Nice looking females!
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 01, 2019, 07:30:09 PM
The second bull from England has a nice smooth side profile and appears to be pretty thick as in wide from behind-also has some muscle-I thought Uppermill used some Maine a while back which the older bull shows somewhat the way he is made and with his size O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: GM on February 01, 2019, 09:38:10 PM
This. Thread. Is. Fascinating. 

E6, I like the premise.  There have to be a lot of overlooked and long forgotten shorthorns who could be very useful.  Imagine the bulls born from 1980 - 2000 that didn’t have Rodeo Drive, Dreamboat, Ayatollah, Cunia, or Trump.  That narrows it down quick.  Here are a few that don’t have the influence of those bulls, who are not “native”, and who I have seen offspring that were very thick (although often times the freakishly thick ones were in show condition).  I’m not saying I’d recommend them, but I am saying I’ve experienced very thick offspring from them.  Most carry too much birth weight.

CC Cujo - born in ‘83, G9 son out of a Clark cow.  His cattle were big, birthweight and frame.  However, there were many on the moderate side who were super thick and very stylish.  Interestingly, his offspring competed in the frame era and the width era. 

C Cisco - born in ‘89, an Enticer son out of a majority Irish cow.  His offspring had legs but man some were super thick.  I didn’t have first hand experience with them, but I’m guessing they could eat a lot.  He shows up in Jakes Proud Jazz pedigree.  He was used at Cal Poly.

Elbee Leader - born in ‘92, very different pedigree - nearly all Elbee and Improver III going back four generations in his pedigree.  Seen many moderate, super thick offspring.

MSF Equity - born in ‘94, I believe a former national champ as things began to moderate.  Goes back to Enticer and some Irish over what appear to be straight Shorthorn cows.  His calves were noticeable thick in that era, and pretty.  Not sure why he fizzled but it could have been due to the rise of Trump and Doublestuff (maybe). 

Deerpark Improver 2nd - born in ‘74, obviously needs no introduction.  He sired some giants and was promoted as a big performance bull.  However, he also threw some thick ones raised on nothing but grass.  I recall the thickest bull calf I’ve ever seen at weaning being an Improver 2nd son out of an Impact 2 cow.  His hind quarter looked like a finished steer, his top line was super wide all the way, but like many Improver 2nd’s his back had a slight curve, he had a lot of sheath, some leather up front, and a big square head with horns.  But man he had an ass.  There were many similar offspring, but this dude took the cake.  I imagine what a set would look like nowadays not out of the old school dual type cows.  Problem would be birth weights.

I would guess there are many others that weren’t promoted or collected heavily because they didn’t fit with the type during the frame era, or couldn’t compete with the “overnight” thickness provided by the the Maine influenced Shorthorns.  Perhaps if the Shorthorn Association didn’t have the appendix program breeders would have been creative and used more thick beef Shorthorns to moderate out of the frame era.


Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Hopster1000 on February 01, 2019, 10:23:07 PM
The second bull from England has a nice smooth side profile and appears to be pretty thick as in wide from behind-also has some muscle-I thought Uppermill used some Maine a while back which the older bull shows somewhat the way he is made and with his size O0

All the main breeders in the UK used Maine bulls widely when the herd book was first opened to them. It is very hard to find a 100% SH in the UK and Native are very rare.
The Dakota bull is bred from an Australian bull, Broughton Park Thunder, and would have approx 9% Maine through his Upsall dam.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 01, 2019, 10:44:34 PM
I think it was a good thing-once the breeders toned them down some-That red bull is way cool
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: knabe on February 01, 2019, 11:02:19 PM
C Cisco - born in Ď89, an Enticer son out of a majority Irish cow.  His offspring had legs but man some were super thick.  I didnít have first hand experience with them, but Iím guessing they could eat a lot.  He shows up in Jakes Proud Jazz pedigree.  He was used at Cal Poly.


seen them first hand.  doubt it but may have pictures.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: -XBAR- on February 02, 2019, 07:09:56 AM


Elbee Leader - born in Ď92, very different pedigree - nearly all Elbee and Improver III going back four generations in his pedigree.  Seen many moderate, super thick offspring.

I saw someone selling 50 units for $50 each on Facebook the other day.  He has always been a bull I was interested in but at the typically advertised price of $100/unit Iíve never tried him.

This is what I think of as the type to add thickness.   It doesnít really do me a lot of good if it takes an animal till theyíre four or five years old to start packing on mass. Most calves are on the rail at 15 months oso how one develops after that is kind of a moot point.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 02, 2019, 09:20:08 AM
Thats why they need to hit the ground with the parts to grow into themselves-in order to have any stoutness-both parents also need to be stout or1 very close and a changer for a sire. Its at least as hard to get thick calf out of a frail cow as to make a sound one from one that isnt .Last time I went to Elbee Lee Bigham said Wymore was one of the better bulls he produced along with Gizmos Image-thickest non available non maine-clubby bull there was. Said Wymore came with a little more performance  and just more to him than Gizmo who was his sire. Used alot on heifers in one small heard-in backwoods Wymore Nebraska where computers and indoor plumbing are starting to become popular-So no flourishing studies and epds-hes as ez calving as Gizmo-like almost all of his sons-Will Lane on here used one called Throwback-the calves were not throwaways at all.One son Mr Colt won a bunch of shows because thats what his kids do-and is also a heifer bull-we are using him.-Bred to a whole herd reporting female-the EPDS would magically reappear on Wymore.Seen pictures of some of his calves.They have the look and the hip and are as wide as most any Shorthorns to come so easily Hes $15 a straw on SEKO0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 02, 2019, 09:13:12 PM

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Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 02, 2019, 09:14:02 PM

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Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 02, 2019, 09:23:40 PM
The second bull from England has a nice smooth side profile and appears to be pretty thick as in wide from behind-also has some muscle-I thought Uppermill used some Maine a while back which the older bull shows somewhat the way he is made and with his size O0

All the main breeders in the UK used Maine bulls widely when the herd book was first opened to them. It is very hard to find a 100% SH in the UK and Native are very rare.
The Dakota bull is bred from an Australian bull, Broughton Park Thunder, and would have approx 9% Maine through his Upsall dam.   ///// There are some native Whitebreds that I am pretty impressed with and understand they are close to extinction-Have you seen any of these cattle? These pictures are for you or anyone from the Isles to comment upon if you would-because you may have seen them etc
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mbigelow on February 02, 2019, 11:43:29 PM
The RB Eagle line (eagle 148,255,239,etc..)has some muscle but are inconsistent in quality in my experience but may work for you. They did produce some good cattle.
Alta cedar signature 119n or perfect storm would both add muscle.
Waukaru used IWF MAGIC and made Copperfield both very thick.
Older bull GS touche was real thick also
A bull that added base width but not necessarily muscle was nps Durango. My issue with him was bad attitude in most calves
Lc diamond cutter was decent also
Pa do boxer was good so was his son Armstrong major league, and his son Armstrong heavy hitter.
Talk with Jay benham (stone springs shorthorns) about PaDo Downtown Ave.


Mark T. Do you remember the bull super sport and how had him?? I remember him being fairly thick. 
Thickest bull but would never use him or recommend him is Mr. V8 Bonfire.
I always liked the look of Talladega but never tried him because I like my cows.
I will add more if I think of them.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Dale on February 03, 2019, 07:27:12 AM
TF Super Sport,  3787293, this one?  Does this make me a Mark T. wannabe?
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 03, 2019, 09:00:43 AM
TF Super Sport,  3787293, this one?  Does this make me a Mark T. wannabe?///Careful what you wish for LOL -Thats Truckenbroads Polled Dividend who I think was Red-There was also another Roan Supersport-That was sired by Steermaker and was supposed to be CE too-That may be him.I thought Wayne Temple had semen at one time but I gave up trying to get in touch with him. I saw pictures of some mature cows on a dispersion in South Dakota or somewhere and they were real stout. GS Touche was one of the first oldschool clubby bulls from Sumptions in SD who were in clubby Shorthorns since probably the 60s-real pioneers like Barkhurst in Wyoming and Connels in Northern Ill.-He was a beasty freaky looking dude-so were his calves-Walter Dickson had the Carly female Gargans brother has a mainly black  daughter of the Carly that looks just like her-, Olson had a granddaughter that had a  daughter by Perfect Timing that looked alot like him-The Westrige farm in ND had a grandson who is in the background of JSF Maccoy-They all had that look-Touche was Fullblood mainexDivedends Impact x NDSU breeding-and probably other maine. Id find somewhere to use him if there were any semen. The Magics were a real thick bunch-alot of people thought that Strathor Irish Magic had Maine in him-The breeder of his sire-Irish Sweepstakes did mention a fullblood maine cow from Northern Ill, I never got to see many Diamond Cutters-but theres a picture of a female out of probably a Double Stuff cow that was very impressive JMO  from Zia or something. Did you get some calves from him? O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: kiblercattle on February 03, 2019, 10:40:35 AM
Alta cedar signature 119 will add thickness for sure but we had fertility problems with his daughters. With our experience I would stay away from him.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Medium Rare on February 03, 2019, 11:05:02 AM
Scrolled through 80-90 head here and these jump out at me...
Navajo x line bred Durango is the biggest top and widest base even as an old cow.
Imagine 65x daughter that's a close second in a more compact package.
TM Gus sired big tops with almost clubby level rears.
Super Flag x Patent is monster topped as a yearling.

Lord Belmore and Dividend each put a good sized top in the bull pen. Yukon put one in there as well if you're willing to use a newer FB Maine papered as 3/4 short.

All of the above thickness can be wiped out with a single generation of Red Angus, which most of my commercial cows have. Yet, they are moving into a good sized chunk of the commercial market.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Medium Rare on February 03, 2019, 11:11:06 AM

Thickest bull but would never use him or recommend him is Mr. V8 Bonfire.

I remember walking what must have been a hundred circles around Bonfire wondering if I really wanted to try to use his pieces. Somehow sanity prevailed.

His sire was up close in several of my thicker steers though.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Hopster1000 on February 03, 2019, 11:21:18 AM
Alta cedar signature 119 will add thickness for sure but we had fertility problems with his daughters. With our experience I would stay away from him.

Have a white heifer cow bred from Perfect Storm out of a Mr Gus cow that is the widest shorthorn I've seen. What I agree with is the fertility is not as good with her as she was the last heifer to get in calf and she now has a much longer calving interval as well.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 03, 2019, 11:50:46 AM
Any pictures?  O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Hopster1000 on February 03, 2019, 11:54:26 AM
The second bull from England has a nice smooth side profile and appears to be pretty thick as in wide from behind-also has some muscle-I thought Uppermill used some Maine a while back which the older bull shows somewhat the way he is made and with his size O0

All the main breeders in the UK used Maine bulls widely when the herd book was first opened to them. It is very hard to find a 100% SH in the UK and Native are very rare.
The Dakota bull is bred from an Australian bull, Broughton Park Thunder, and would have approx 9% Maine through his Upsall dam.   ///// There are some native Whitebreds that I am pretty impressed with and understand they are close to extinction-Have you seen any of these cattle? These pictures are for you or anyone from the Isles to comment upon if you would-because you may have seen them etc

They are very rare, although a very small number are sold at a Spring and Autumn sale in Carlisle each year. What I have seen at those wouldn't be as thick as what the best are in your pictures.
Here is the champion from last spring.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zEw5MMr0dOU (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zEw5MMr0dOU)

They are still on the endangered list of the Rare Breeds Survival Trust
https://www.rbst.org.uk/Pages/Category/cattle-watchlist (https://www.rbst.org.uk/Pages/Category/cattle-watchlist)
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Hopster1000 on February 03, 2019, 12:39:50 PM
Any pictures?  O0

Found one picture from when she was a year old. Hasn't been tested, but think she must have a myostatin gene, however I didn't think Perfect Storm, Mr Gus 80c or Diamond Captain Mark carried the myostatin deletion?
She is far from perfect, but thought she was one I could work with, especially if she was myostatin free. She calved herself with a 40kg bull calf and had enough milk for a heifer.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 03, 2019, 01:07:39 PM
Thanks you can see in her top she was really wide-just sideways -at leat the thread no longer is lol O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mbigelow on February 03, 2019, 08:49:24 PM
Mark I did have some calves by diamond cutter they were good. The second super sport was the one I was thinking of. Ss super sport by mb steetmaker.
The issue I have had with the 119N cattle is poor teat shape.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 03, 2019, 09:31:53 PM
Finally found a picture of Irish Magic-His sire :Irish sweepstakes was a solid Red Dividend son-so there was some magic-or should we say Maine in there-a 99% guess would be an Epinal-sired cow O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: knabe on February 03, 2019, 09:41:21 PM
How did they get all that hair on his lower quarter.

Almost looks fake.

Nice looking bull.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: aj on February 04, 2019, 07:19:57 AM
Does thickness=cutability? Does it mean an increase in high price cuts? Should a maternal breed chase thickness? good discussion.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Dale on February 04, 2019, 07:48:08 AM
We have a couple yearling females sired by JR Legacy 23G.  One of his owners described him as having the "right kind of thickness."  Yes, I like them thick, but any trait taken to extreme may have unintended consequences.   
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Boreal on February 04, 2019, 08:31:18 AM
Agreed. I think this fellaís got the right kind of thickness to accompany his maternally backed pedigree

Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 04, 2019, 09:37:43 AM
Does thickness=cutability? Does it mean an increase in high price cuts? Should a maternal breed chase thickness? good discussion.

Thickness means more retail product. Majority of beef is sold as burger. We supply one restaurant with burger and they will use 75-125 pounds a week.

Thickness doesnít necessarily mean better cutability. Shorthorns are already the most tender breed. Outside of birthweight I see way too many thinner type cows. If I want something really extreme Iíd use a Limmy bull. Iím looking for the happy medium.

The first hog I butchered weighed 260 and yielded 15 pounds of bacon. I found that ridiculous. So I made a longer pig. Fat hogs now avg around 17 pounds of belly per side.

The goal in my mind isnít anything extreme. Itís just more in a similar/ stouter package.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: knabe on February 04, 2019, 10:00:36 AM
Reference on shorthorns being the most tender breed.

Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 04, 2019, 10:15:17 AM
Reference on shorthorns being the most tender breed.

It was MARC data that I was talking about. The shear force test. Iíll see if I can find it this evening.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Hopster1000 on February 04, 2019, 10:23:14 AM
Reference on shorthorns being the most tender breed.


I got this December 2014 quote from a Farmers Weekly article.

"The US Department of Agricultureís Meat Animal Research Center (MARC) ranks the Beef Shorthorn as one of the best performers in the world in terms of calving ease, average daily gain, marbling and carcass quality.
Research at MARC has shown the Shorthorn to achieve the best 200-day weight of any English breed. Itís combination of marbling and cutability is extremely rare and evidence of exceptional carcass quality.
The Beef Shorthorn carries two copies of the GeneSTAR tenderness gene, meaning its meat is tender 97% of the time, compared to 78% in the Angus and 70% in the Hereford."

Cannot find the source for the original data however.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 04, 2019, 10:30:24 AM
Really good search on the endangered breeds those Lincoln Reds are still probably the stoutest original endangered cattle around.In 1991 I did see a herd of blue grey cows in Devon but we couldnt really get any good pictures. We stayed with my then fiances girls school best friend and they had a herd of solid red polled cattle-that are surely extinct-I dont even remember what they called-maybe red galloways ot polled Devons-they didnt have much hair and were not made like dual purpose cattle. As for the MARC deal:thats a very good synopsis-I havent had time to go over the sire group involved-Would Maybe someone could list a few?-I am going to guess that the Gold-(Back to Goldwalk and or other Enticer relatives) and in general the Waukaru  bulls played a part.  O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 04, 2019, 03:49:19 PM
How did they get all that hair on his lower quarter. //// Well he was from Canada-dont tell XLAX Jit had anything to do with him LOL O0

Almost looks fake.

Nice looking bull.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 04, 2019, 04:16:10 PM
We have a couple yearling females sired by JR Legacy 23G.  One of his owners described him as having the "right kind of thickness."  Yes, I like them thick, but any trait taken to extreme may have unintended consequences. //// I agree entirely-If the balance swings too far the other way -EG embarrassingly narrow made dairy looking cattle, it tales one a little more extreme to start the change or just get rid of them O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 04, 2019, 04:32:00 PM
Reference on shorthorns being the most tender breed.


https://www.farmersweekly.co.za/animals/cattle/the-beef-shorthorn-a-breed-to-be-reckoned-with/ (https://www.farmersweekly.co.za/animals/cattle/the-beef-shorthorn-a-breed-to-be-reckoned-with/)


https://genetics.zoetis.com/canada/_locale-assets/documents/genestar_mvp_techsummary_na_nov2012.pdf (https://genetics.zoetis.com/canada/_locale-assets/documents/genestar_mvp_techsummary_na_nov2012.pdf)
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: knabe on February 04, 2019, 05:51:57 PM
That is very old data and no longer accepted.

Lots of cattle from different breeds that are homo for all 3 markers including fullblood maines.

Fullblood maines and prob high % purebreds are probably fixed for T1

T2 is not common in most breeds.

Epl prospector 242p is homo for t1 and t2.

He is the sire of two fullblood calves at this past naile show.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 04, 2019, 06:01:15 PM
Fair enough. Can you show me the most recent data ?
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: aj on February 04, 2019, 06:16:39 PM
So.......is it correct that the Shorthorns have two copies of the Genestar gene?  Seems like to me that that would encourage some direct marketing..........or give one the confidence to do so.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 04, 2019, 06:18:04 PM
Howzabowt showing the bottom line results for the Marc study-Maybe which shorthorn sires in the deal   brought home the bacon O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 04, 2019, 06:30:40 PM
Howzabowt showing the bottom line results for the Marc study-Maybe which shorthorn sires in the deal   brought home the bacon O0

I looked but couldnít find the breed by breed results. Hopefully somebody can point that out for us.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 04, 2019, 06:35:56 PM
Look into Fringe. Thickest heifer we have ever had was sired by him. We flushed that cow to him and got 6 embryos, but haven't put any in yet. Don't have anything big enough on the farm to have that calf right now lol

Should be noted that we only had 1 calf out of him, so not a real big sample size, to say the least.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: -XBAR- on February 04, 2019, 07:13:03 PM
With Mark T outsourcing all his cattle and JIT always having 100% unassisted calf crops, what a great opportunity to sell the embryos to Mark who could them Ďpartnerí with JIT to calve them out.   Be careful though, the details there after will become extremely convoluted and who knows you might even end up receiving a call from the Sheik of Fantasia. 
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 04, 2019, 07:58:40 PM
From the looks of the pictures I saw you could have one hell of a coop herd XLAX Enterprises-but this thread is about thick bulls that have the look and meet the needs of discriminating O0 commercial breeders-NOT UNLIKE YOURSELF-HERES MY CHOICE- Please contact Saheed Shtshoot-our international ssssssselezzzman for your next carpet ride-it appears one wasnt enoughO0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: -XBAR- on February 04, 2019, 08:24:44 PM
Oh trust me- one was more than enough
   
 
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Gargan on February 04, 2019, 08:26:42 PM
Lmao mark!!
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: kiblercattle on February 04, 2019, 08:32:38 PM
Wow xbar that is a monster for sure.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 04, 2019, 08:40:20 PM
ive saved em that big-but I did things like preg the cow-knew it was coming-and with the vet having palpated etc induced the trainwreck-got the calf out-and never used Awesome again-even had a low BW one out of him on the young sire deal from a different Byland cow, That one never threw a big calf If you live and die by EPDS and not by your instincts-then some of your calves will die too-How could you not see that coming from a moderate cow like that?  O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: kiblercattle on February 04, 2019, 08:50:42 PM
I would say for cattle to be commercially acceptable you better not have to do all that bs to get a live calf and cow. Mark imo if a actual cowman read your post and thinks that's what you have to do when you use shorthorn bulls on cows that are designed to meet commercial needs selling shorthorns bull isn't going to fly. I don't know how big that calf is but looks like a 6 ft wide trailer and he darn sure takes up 2/3 of it.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Medium Rare on February 04, 2019, 08:56:43 PM
According to the RFD program, all the calves in the sire tests, 250ish, have came unassisted and so far 80% graded choice or higher. Some of the bulls that have been entered carry some thickness, might be worth browsing the results to pick one out E6.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: -XBAR- on February 04, 2019, 09:02:31 PM
Everyone knows you can subtract 10lbs from their birthweight when coming 2000 miles south south  ::)
 
That red calf was a heifer too, the cow a 4yr old trying to calve her third calf.  I didnít weigh this one but it was easily 120 plus.

This one here was a real dandy too.  Steer Planet Fav, Davis Shorthorns here  -beaut isnít he  ;) - helped me get this bull calf out.  He weighed 131.  Would have made a nice rug


Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 04, 2019, 09:07:49 PM
Everyone knows you can subtract 10lbs from their birthweight when coming 2000 miles south south  ::)
 
That red calf was a heifer too, the cow a 4yr old trying to calve her third calf.  I didnít weigh this one but it was easily 120 plus.

This one here was a real dandy too.  Steer Planet Fav, Davis Shorthorns here  -beaut isnít he  ;) - helped me get this bull calf out.  He weighed 131.  Would have made a nice rug

Just have the vet out early to palpate the cow. Then schedule a c section. Totally commercially viable.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 04, 2019, 09:20:20 PM
According to the RFD program, all the calves in the sire tests, 250ish, have came unassisted and so far 80% graded choice or higher. Some of the bulls that have been entered carry some thickness, might be worth browsing the results to pick one out E6.

Last I looked, it cost a pretty penny to ďnominateĒ a bull for the test. I could be wrong this year but if the ASA is going to have a sire test, why does it cost the producer so much dinero? Why not let any breeder who thinks they have a bull worthy submit a cane of semen? Why charge a fee? Have an initial proposal put out by the ASA asking for bulls. After everybody has submitted a bull/ bulls, have a vote by the whole memebership via a online survey to make sure the breed is fully represented by the samples. Donít make money be the variable as to whether a bull is worthy of the test. Let peer reviewed decide. Why limit it with exaborant fees? The breed needs all the help it can get, not some arbitrary fee so the ASA and U of I can collect the cash.

10 bulls in the latest round of sire test. Thatís ridiculous. I hope Monte reads SP. or whoever is in charge of that test.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 04, 2019, 09:22:23 PM
7 farms represented in that sire test. We can do better
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 04, 2019, 09:26:15 PM
I would say for cattle to be commercially acceptable you better not have to do all that bs to get a live calf and cow. Mark imo if a actual cowman read your post and thinks that's what you have to do when you use shorthorn bulls on cows that are designed to meet commercial needs selling shorthorns bull isn't going to fly. I don't know how big that calf is but looks like a 6 ft wide trailer and he darn sure takes up 2/3 of it./// The one Im talking about I had that size was sired by Deertrail Awesome in 1992-Regardless: even when we had 250 cows at Deertrail-or my measly 18 cows in Va-I and later (We) pregged everything-and vetted them again farther along . So do alot of Angus breeders at least around here-And alot of the postings on rhis thread certainly arent commercial recommendations-This has not as a whole remained avery serious thread as much as a vendetta.-Who can post the biggest butt or when it comes to the humor BE THE BIGGEST BUTT I would think anyone would have reservations about the direction and or spirit that the thread is moving in -And JMO, should not take the entire content in a serious vein-(re useful breed info.)Even though  some valid and interesting points have been made You are certainly right on one thing-anyone who sees those pictures sure as blazes wouldnt go near a Shorthorn-even though it also happens with other breeds-OK folks-lets see your TH and PHA calves next O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 04, 2019, 09:37:26 PM
A second preg check is another trip though the chute. Another vet bill. Again, not commercially viable. I donít check a thing. If they donít calve, they are sold for burger shortly after. If their calf doesnít make it to weaning, they go to burger. Itís not rocket science. Like ol Gabe Brown says, ďmy cows only get one chance to make a mistake.Ē That should be all seedstock producers mentality.

Lots of good suggestions of bulls on here. I donít care where this thread goes. Itís my thread. Let it be. The idea was identifying thick bulls.  More retail product. But too thick or too big is no bueno. Without injjecting Maine, the only way I see goingforward is use bigger BW bulls and breed on offspring that showed calving ease attributes.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Medium Rare on February 04, 2019, 09:39:01 PM
According to the RFD program, all the calves in the sire tests, 250ish, have came unassisted and so far 80% graded choice or higher. Some of the bulls that have been entered carry some thickness, might be worth browsing the results to pick one out E6.

Last I looked, it cost a pretty penny to ďnominateĒ a bull for the test. I could be wrong this year but if the ASA is going to have a sire test, why does it cost the producer so much dinero? Why not let any breeder who thinks they have a bull worthy submit a cane of semen? Why charge a fee? Have an initial proposal put out by the ASA asking for bulls. After everybody has submitted a bull/ bulls, have a vote by the whole memebership via a online survey to make sure the breed is fully represented by the samples. Donít make money be the variable as to whether a bull is worthy of the test. Let peer reviewed decide. Why limit it with exaborant fees? The breed needs all the help it can get, not some arbitrary fee so the ASA and U of I can collect the cash.

10 bulls in the latest round of sire test. Thatís ridiculous. I hope Monte reads SP. or whoever is in charge of that test.

I have serious issues with the test and the ASA in general, but that doesn't mean the info can't be used. The UofI does not work cheap. Rent a grow safe pen at your nearest test station and see how much it sets you back.

Unless you're entering a bull, they're sorting multiple readily available bulls for you. Free of charge.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 04, 2019, 09:43:12 PM
Everyone knows you can subtract 10lbs from their birthweight when coming 2000 miles south south  ::)
 
That red calf was a heifer too, the cow a 4yr old trying to calve her third calf.  I didnít weigh this one but it was easily 120 plus.

This one here was a real dandy too.  Steer Planet Fav, Davis Shorthorns here  -beaut isnít he  ;) - helped me get this bull calf out.  He weighed 131.  Would have made a nice rug

Just have the vet out early to palpate the cow. Then schedule a c section. Totally commercially viable.//// Why spend $50-$75.00  to save a cow and a calf? Thats like saying why buy your kids shoes?-Your cattle must not bring much-glad I dont have to depend upon the sale barn for the 100%  -PS we didnt C section any of the big calves in the day maybe should have-we did have the vet there and slowly moved the calf out jacking and holding it up slightly-then bringing it out some-reversing the up down as he called it and eventually it came out-I saw a c section in ill.last winter that only took about 20 minutes total. I imagine up in a part of central Iowa its faster than that-lots of practice O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: wiseguy on February 04, 2019, 09:51:33 PM
According to the RFD program, all the calves in the sire tests, 250ish, have came unassisted and so far 80% graded choice or higher. Some of the bulls that have been entered carry some thickness, might be worth browsing the results to pick one out E6.

Last I looked, it cost a pretty penny to ďnominateĒ a bull for the test. I could be wrong this year but if the ASA is going to have a sire test, why does it cost the producer so much dinero? Why not let any breeder who thinks they have a bull worthy submit a cane of semen? Why charge a fee? Have an initial proposal put out by the ASA asking for bulls. After everybody has submitted a bull/ bulls, have a vote by the whole memebership via a online survey to make sure the breed is fully represented by the samples. Donít make money be the variable as to whether a bull is worthy of the test. Let peer reviewed decide. Why limit it with exaborant fees? The breed needs all the help it can get, not some arbitrary fee so the ASA and U of I can collect the cash.

10 bulls in the latest round of sire test. Thatís ridiculous. I hope Monte reads SP. or whoever is in charge of that test.

Brock,
I was responsible for getting the ASA sire test program going. When I was chair of the Shorthorn plus committee I approached the U of I after Simmental and Charolais had done similar tests. I think it would be rude to discuss actual numbers, but lets just agree it was more than 20k and less than 50k for the U of I to let us participate. If you would have attended the sire test field day one of the things Matt discussed was the value of the test in actual dollars. I nominated my bull Imperative. He had 16 calves. For my $2,000 dollars I paid someone to collect all the performance data, DNA genotype the calves, collect data from the grow safe system, (which I don't have) and compare them to 14 other sires within the breed. So it cost me $125 a head. I am very comfortable with that. There is nowhere else that this is being done. Period. Compared to the Waukaru, Lovings, Jungels, Leveldale, etc I am a little fish in a big pond. I calve 25-30 cows a year. Last I checked they are all over 100. But I still feel like I have one of the best bulls in the breed, and it was time to prove it.

The ASA can't just drop that kind of money on a sire test. Heck that is a persons salary at the association. As breeders we have to "put up or shut up!" I wish our association could afford to offer this service, but they can't.  If you disagree with me that's fine. No hard feelings. It's a big cost. I just think it was worth it.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 04, 2019, 10:00:03 PM
According to the RFD program, all the calves in the sire tests, 250ish, have came unassisted and so far 80% graded choice or higher. Some of the bulls that have been entered carry some thickness, might be worth browsing the results to pick one out E6.

Last I looked, it cost a pretty penny to ďnominateĒ a bull for the test. I could be wrong this year but if the ASA is going to have a sire test, why does it cost the producer so much dinero? Why not let any breeder who thinks they have a bull worthy submit a cane of semen? Why charge a fee? Have an initial proposal put out by the ASA asking for bulls. After everybody has submitted a bull/ bulls, have a vote by the whole memebership via a online survey to make sure the breed is fully represented by the samples. Donít make money be the variable as to whether a bull is worthy of the test. Let peer reviewed decide. Why limit it with exaborant fees? The breed needs all the help it can get, not some arbitrary fee so the ASA and U of I can collect the cash.

10 bulls in the latest round of sire test. Thatís ridiculous. I hope Monte reads SP. or whoever is in charge of that test.

Brock,
I was responsible for getting the ASA sire test program going. When I was chair of the Shorthorn plus committee I approached the U of I after Simmental and Charolais had done similar tests. I think it would be rude to discuss actual numbers, but lets just agree it was more than 20k and less than 50k for the U of I to let us participate. If you would have attended the sire test field day one of the things Matt discussed was the value of the test in actual dollars. I nominated my bull Imperative. He had 16 calves. For my $2,000 dollars I paid someone to collect all the performance data, DNA genotype the calves, collect data from the grow safe system, (which I don't have) and compare them to 14 other sires within the breed. So it cost me $125 a head. I am very comfortable with that. There is nowhere else that this is being done. Period. Compared to the Waukaru, Lovings, Jungels, Leveldale, etc I am a little fish in a big pond. I calve 25-30 cows a year. Last I checked they are all over 100. But I still feel like I have one of the best bulls in the breed, and it was time to prove it.

The ASA can't just drop that kind of money on a sire test. Heck that is a persons salary at the association. As breeders we have to "put up or shut up!" I wish our association could afford to offer this service, but they can't.  If you disagree with me that's fine. No hard feelings. It's a big cost. I just think it was worth it.

Great points by you and medium rare. Does the U of I give a break down for the reasons for the costs? Iím sure the grow safe feeders were not cheap. But for the money they charge it would seem to me a good business venture to create a similar test station. I appreciate all the effort put into it, I just couldnít get my head around the costs. 14 bulls at 2k a bull is 28k. Who got the money when the calves were sold?
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 04, 2019, 10:00:40 PM
A second preg check is another trip though the chute. Another vet bill. Again, not commercially viable. I donít check a thing. If they donít calve, they are sold for burger shortly after. If their calf doesnít make it to weaning, they go to burger. Itís not rocket science. Like ol Gabe Brown says, ďmy cows only get one chance to make a mistake.Ē That should be all seedstock producers mentality.

Lots of good suggestions of bulls on here. I donít care where this thread goes. Itís my thread. Let it be. The idea was identifying thick bulls.  More retail product. But too thick or too big is no bueno. Without injjecting Maine, the only way I see goingforward is use bigger BW bulls and breed on offspring that showed calving ease attributes.//// Then you are bound to  have repeats of the pictures above -how much do a couple dead cows cost--$2000? There are still 3-4 seedstock producers with 70-150 cows within 4 miles of me-guys Ive known for years. I he;p work them-move them across the road this and that-And all of them at a minimum preg the cows and if they are a little worried about a few of them-palpate them when they work them again just to be safe-If you cant get your cows up to work them then it stands to reason they wont be in as good an order as with  a little general maintenance  O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 04, 2019, 10:10:29 PM
According to the RFD program, all the calves in the sire tests, 250ish, have came unassisted and so far 80% graded choice or higher. Some of the bulls that have been entered carry some thickness, might be worth browsing the results to pick one out E6.

Last I looked, it cost a pretty penny to ďnominateĒ a bull for the test. I could be wrong this year but if the ASA is going to have a sire test, why does it cost the producer so much dinero? Why not let any breeder who thinks they have a bull worthy submit a cane of semen? Why charge a fee? Have an initial proposal put out by the ASA asking for bulls. After everybody has submitted a bull/ bulls, have a vote by the whole memebership via a online survey to make sure the breed is fully represented by the samples. Donít make money be the variable as to whether a bull is worthy of the test. Let peer reviewed decide. Why limit it with exaborant fees? The breed needs all the help it can get, not some arbitrary fee so the ASA and U of I can collect the cash.

10 bulls in the latest round of sire test. Thatís ridiculous. I hope Monte reads SP. or whoever is in charge of that test.

Brock,
I was responsible for getting the ASA sire test program going. When I was chair of the Shorthorn plus committee I approached the U of I after Simmental and Charolais had done similar tests. I think it would be rude to discuss actual numbers, but lets just agree it was more than 20k and less than 50k for the U of I to let us participate. If you would have attended the sire test field day one of the things Matt discussed was the value of the test in actual dollars. I nominated my bull Imperative. He had 16 calves. For my $2,000 dollars I paid someone to collect all the performance data, DNA genotype the calves, collect data from the grow safe system, (which I don't have) and compare them to 14 other sires within the breed. So it cost me $125 a head. I am very comfortable with that. There is nowhere else that this is being done. Period. Compared to the Waukaru, Lovings, Jungels, Leveldale, etc I am a little fish in a big pond. I calve 25-30 cows a year. Last I checked they are all over 100. But I still feel like I have one of the best bulls in the breed, and it was time to prove it.

The ASA can't just drop that kind of money on a sire test. Heck that is a persons salary at the association. As breeders we have to "put up or shut up!" I wish our association could afford to offer this service, but they can't.  If you disagree with me that's fine. No hard feelings. It's a big cost. I just think it was worth it.//// -You would do fine if you could market that quality of beef after the fact somehow excluding by products-and be involved in something positive for your business and the breed O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: wiseguy on February 04, 2019, 10:20:21 PM
According to the RFD program, all the calves in the sire tests, 250ish, have came unassisted and so far 80% graded choice or higher. Some of the bulls that have been entered carry some thickness, might be worth browsing the results to pick one out E6.

Last I looked, it cost a pretty penny to ďnominateĒ a bull for the test. I could be wrong this year but if the ASA is going to have a sire test, why does it cost the producer so much dinero? Why not let any breeder who thinks they have a bull worthy submit a cane of semen? Why charge a fee? Have an initial proposal put out by the ASA asking for bulls. After everybody has submitted a bull/ bulls, have a vote by the whole memebership via a online survey to make sure the breed is fully represented by the samples. Donít make money be the variable as to whether a bull is worthy of the test. Let peer reviewed decide. Why limit it with exaborant fees? The breed needs all the help it can get, not some arbitrary fee so the ASA and U of I can collect the cash.

10 bulls in the latest round of sire test. Thatís ridiculous. I hope Monte reads SP. or whoever is in charge of that test.

Brock,
I was responsible for getting the ASA sire test program going. When I was chair of the Shorthorn plus committee I approached the U of I after Simmental and Charolais had done similar tests. I think it would be rude to discuss actual numbers, but lets just agree it was more than 20k and less than 50k for the U of I to let us participate. If you would have attended the sire test field day one of the things Matt discussed was the value of the test in actual dollars. I nominated my bull Imperative. He had 16 calves. For my $2,000 dollars I paid someone to collect all the performance data, DNA genotype the calves, collect data from the grow safe system, (which I don't have) and compare them to 14 other sires within the breed. So it cost me $125 a head. I am very comfortable with that. There is nowhere else that this is being done. Period. Compared to the Waukaru, Lovings, Jungels, Leveldale, etc I am a little fish in a big pond. I calve 25-30 cows a year. Last I checked they are all over 100. But I still feel like I have one of the best bulls in the breed, and it was time to prove it.

The ASA can't just drop that kind of money on a sire test. Heck that is a persons salary at the association. As breeders we have to "put up or shut up!" I wish our association could afford to offer this service, but they can't.  If you disagree with me that's fine. No hard feelings. It's a big cost. I just think it was worth it.

Great points by you and medium rare. Does the U of I give a break down for the reasons for the costs? Iím sure the grow safe feeders were not cheap. But for the money they charge it would seem to me a good business venture to create a similar test station. I appreciate all the effort put into it, I just couldnít get my head around the costs. 14 bulls at 2k a bull is 28k. Who got the money when the calves were sold?


The cost was based on cows inseminated. Not on the number of live calves. U of I came up with this cost. I never received a break down. The cattle belong to the university, and receive all profits/ losses.

If Shorthorns don't utilize this opportunity other breeds are waiting in line to take our spot. At the same cost. The ASA did cover several expenses not associated with the U of I charge. Matt Woolfolk has a presentation about it. Email him. I bet he would send it to you.

When was the last time 150 head of shorthorn sired calves had complete performance, intake, and kill data in one group......?

I know people beat up on the ASA for WHR costs, TOC memberships, money spent on Jr. Nationals, not having a field rep, etc. Call your board of directors and make your opinions known.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: knabe on February 04, 2019, 10:26:27 PM
https://shorthorn.org/university-of-illinois-sire-test/ (https://shorthorn.org/university-of-illinois-sire-test/)


extremely difficult to find much on the university of illinois websites.


web pages are not updated with recent data and you have to click through to find the updates.


not sure where to find what programs are, where the bull test is at which school


all in all, pretty sad websites
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: -XBAR- on February 05, 2019, 05:55:51 AM
But somehow the association will find the money to send a fleet of nva employees to the world Shorthorn Congress or whatever itís called this year in Australiaó but no money for print advertisement, no money for bull test, no money for anything of any value.  The reason dollar amounts canít be disclosed is because the ASA profited off this venture. 
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: knabe on February 05, 2019, 07:34:20 AM
Break down the costs.


What should they be.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mbigelow on February 05, 2019, 09:08:28 AM
Another thick bull was greenridge courier.

How much does it cost to produce a calf from conception to weaning. Then add the cost from weaning to harvest.  What does it cost to AI a cow, calving labor, weaning processing labor, feeding labor, harvesting labor and data collection.  What would this cost you if you tried to do it yourself.  I think it's a good deal if conception rates are at or above 75%.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 05, 2019, 09:20:14 AM
Years ago I bought K Kim Pleasure pass embryos on a red Dunbeacon Venture daughter of the really good margie you had at Denver,maybe 2003 or something.-She might have been sired by the Primetime bull you had from Bucholtz. The people who bought her from you were from Colorado. Things went South and I never picked them up-I always wondered how that would have turned out. I heard he moderated them and was deep bodied O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: Hopster1000 on February 05, 2019, 10:35:23 AM
https://shorthorn.org/university-of-illinois-sire-test/ (https://shorthorn.org/university-of-illinois-sire-test/)


extremely difficult to find much on the university of illinois websites.


web pages are not updated with recent data and you have to click through to find the updates.


not sure where to find what programs are, where the bull test is at which school


all in all, pretty sad websites

Would this be a starting point?

https://shorthorn.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Sire-Test-Update-Matt-April-2018.pdf
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: -XBAR- on February 05, 2019, 10:51:37 AM
Another thick bull was greenridge courier.

How much does it cost to produce a calf from conception to weaning. Then add the cost from weaning to harvest.  What does it cost to AI a cow, calving labor, weaning processing labor, feeding labor, harvesting labor and data collection.  What would this cost you if you tried to do it yourself.  I think it's a good deal if conception rates are at or above 75%.

The data collection is the only cost you mention that should be absorbed by the ASA and itís members.  The other cost should be assumed by whoever is profiting off the actual animal carcass. 

My contention is no so much the cost as it is the ASAs lack of prioritizing the value of the test by choosing not to contribute any funds towards it.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 05, 2019, 04:41:15 PM
They've raised the  fees for everything so high nobody is sending the money they used to -lotta non whole reported herds-lotta non registries PERIOD-The cash flow situation is probably not very strong O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: -XBAR- on February 05, 2019, 05:51:36 PM
Idk about cash flow but their total revenue isnít too shabby.     When thereís enough revenue to expand the service side to include titles such as show director and youth activities director,  then thereís gotta be enough to fund ventures such as the Illinois sire test.    When thereís enough revenue to warrant funding for a brick-and-mortar establishment, one whose door has never had a single dollar walk through it, then thereís enough to invest in the sire test.   When thereís enough revenue to send the executive secretary and a fleet of other people to South America to a conference that doesnít generate one red cent for the association or itís members,  well then, you get the point...  The association has plenty of money to work with- rather itís the disgraceful misallocation of revenue that hamstrings actual useful investments such as the sire test. 
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: -XBAR- on February 05, 2019, 05:57:28 PM
It goes back to ďwhat is the operative function of the association.Ē  The current allocation is like a school district saying they donít have the funds for a math teacher, but then going out and spending more than the equivalent on a luncheon, for a handful of employees.   
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 05, 2019, 07:35:10 PM
https://shorthorn.org/university-of-illinois-sire-test/ (https://shorthorn.org/university-of-illinois-sire-test/)


extremely difficult to find much on the university of illinois websites.


web pages are not updated with recent data and you have to click through to find the updates.


not sure where to find what programs are, where the bull test is at which school


all in all, pretty sad websites

Would this be a starting point?//// YES IT WOULD GOOD SHOW-LIST OF ALL THE BULLS INVOLVED

https://shorthorn.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Sire-Test-Update-Matt-April-2018.pdf
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: SEA on February 05, 2019, 10:02:25 PM
Double Vision.  True, he is Clubby and THC!  (I can not remember his PHA status?).  But THICK!  And that was the criteria of the original post.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: knabe on February 05, 2019, 10:32:27 PM

Would this be a starting point?//// YES IT WOULD GOOD SHOW-LIST OF ALL THE BULLS INVOLVED

https://shorthorn.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Sire-Test-Update-Matt-April-2018.pdf (https://shorthorn.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Sire-Test-Update-Matt-April-2018.pdf)


so no other breeds. what do numbers mean with no other breeds.


ww seem low?
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 06, 2019, 05:00:18 PM
Double Vision.  True, he is Clubby and THC!  (I can not remember his PHA status?).  But THICK!  And that was the criteria of the original post.??? No it wasnt- they were just kidding-it has been revamped to commercially oreiented cattle only and even some pigs LOL-Vision was: th, pha. but DS clean-and like: Double Stuff. Steermaker, and Proud Jazz, (or a couple sons like Capiche) was used on more types of cattle then any Shorthorns available  O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 06, 2019, 05:19:32 PM
Double Vision.  True, he is Clubby and THC!  (I can not remember his PHA status?).  But THICK!  And that was the criteria of the original post.??? No it wasnt- they were just kidding-it has been revamped to commercially oreiented cattle only and even some pigs LOL-Vision was: th, pha. but DS clean-and like: Double Stuff. Steermaker, and Proud Jazz, (or a couple sons like Capiche) was used on more types of cattle then any Shorthorns available  O0


Jesus man. Would you just stop. I was just kidding? Youíre high. If you donít have anything positive to contribute then just move along. It was a legit question. Obviously youíre still sour.

Iíve been having private conversations. Iím not required to keep you posted on what Iím doing.

This thread has been super useful for me so far. Chill out homie  O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 06, 2019, 05:42:35 PM
I"m not sour at all: nor am I high:which is a childish cliche at best  Threads evolve than dissolve-This deal has covered a number of other topics and this guy was just adding an opinion-and I added my opinion: based  upon semen sales from the US purebred deals-to the commercial deals that had not had a viable Shorthorn on offer for years People arent drunk or stoned just because they dont take the same direction you do in every sentence-As far as sour-the tamtrums and histrionics EXLAX has been directing at just about anybody: especially JIT might deserve a little of your attention. Posting gory pictures of dead calves etc to try and maintain some sort of upperhand or whatever is not only juvenile-its down right distastefull. And yeah yeah-we've all dealt with these kinds of things-You arent the only people in the world who have ever been around cattle. O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: -XBAR- on February 06, 2019, 07:27:02 PM
Histrionic. Damn mark- reaching deep tonight.  Impressive. 

But  Ďdistasteful?í  Hahaha mufuker please-  the swindler who sells these type bulls as viable commercial options is the distasteful one.  Im merely showing the results of our encounter in an attempt to provide some context to his outlandish, utter bs claims.  Substantiating mine by disputing his.

Hereís one I got out alive, 143 lbs. Pulled him in a creek bottom with a come along. Made my 120lb fiancť look like a small child. 
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 06, 2019, 08:16:24 PM
You have no proof of intent other than your bleets about a deal to buy a bull where you claim you were misled-A swindler takes consideration and does not deliver the product as agreed-You made a decision based upon your knowledge and experience that this bull might work-you paid for a bull per a contract-it was delivered-Were there warranties and or guarantees clearly laid out in your agreement as to the range of calving weights by the bull and based upon the sellers full acknowledgement of the type pf cows you were going to use him on? Expected progeny differences are just that.So there are no absolutes-and as such-there are no reliances strong enough to justify cause per se- against either the owner of the bull or the owner of the cow in the case of a huge BW  Unless warranted in writing. Who struck John Dont Count: and only God knows the outcome of future births. Did every calf on your place out of that bull come as a monster? YOUR TURN TO TELL THE TRUTH And did the females involved with the big BWS  share ANY of the same breeding? YO GOOBER-LOOKS TO ME LIKE YOU DUPED YOSELF MOFO-But big tough Cowboyzzz dont cry and fuss-they move onto the next rodeo   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THquGPFx5YU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THquGPFx5YU) O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: -XBAR- on February 06, 2019, 09:14:57 PM
I had calved the exact same group of cows to both JR Drover 05X and YY Cartwright, a Bonanza son, the two years prior and only pulled 1 calf.  A 7155 daughter had a big, what I thought at the time, 85lb calf.  All of the other calves were mid 70s, or less.  Some even low 60s.   Year 3 Vanguard alone bred these cows and birthweights on bull calves jumped 50lbs.  I have a photo album of every calf of his I pulled if you want to see any more?  Thank god I didn't dismiss all canadian cattle at this point as I went back to Saskatchewan, this time to Saskvalley to purchase the bull in my avatar, Alamo 8A.   Night and day difference in terms of the calving ease between these two bulls.  I pulled more vanguard bull calves the first month of calving to him than I have Alamo in 3 years.  I think I've pulled maybe 3 calves out close to a 100.. ALL of which required assistance were first calf heifers.  You want to bring into question my knowledge and experience-- well I'll be the first to tell you that I had no knowledge or experience with cattle that have 120+lb birthweights.   I get it that in this dress up world you play in maybe thats more common but in the real world, cattle like this were bred out 50 years ago.  I can remember as a kid my grandpa telling me about 140lb Fullblood Charolais calves he had out of Fullbloods he had imported and quarantined in Canada but like I said, that was in the late 1960s- 50 years prior!   I put my faith and money in JIT's presented expertise.  Read any of his posts: these cattle hung the moon!  Without question he presents himself by any legal standard as an "expert" within the breed- who would I, at the time, be to question that which he presents so definitively!?   I don't think it was a reach on my part to assume bulls with this kind of birth weight had long been rid from the gene pool.     I did move on to the next rodeo-  I went and bought Alamo, went to Indiana bought Waukaru Forward, Illinois for Leveldale Genesis, Rigby Idaho for Diamond K Roan Ranger, etc.   I've used everyone of these bulls (with the exception of Roan Ranger whose calves will come in April) and have been very happy with them all.   My experience with them has been what any reasonably minded person would expect.  Maybe pull a couple out of heifers-- but none out of cows-- and certainly not slews of 130lbers that kill the cow and calf.   I lost at least 5 cows three years or older- and if you want to talk **** and not believe that Ill dig through the ten thousand pics on my iphone and post everyone of them- .  The straw that finally broke the camels back was that piece of **** killing one of my brangus cows who was seven years old and who had had 6 unassisted calves prior.  I found them hiplocked, the calf dead cow barely alive.  I got the calf out and I swear to god he had to have been 140lbs.  He looked like a 2 month old calf just a massive muscular hip, just like you see on the roan bull calf swinging from the tractor forks.  Nothing had ever been like that on our place before and thankful not since. 
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 06, 2019, 09:44:11 PM
Then -my question is how was this bull presented RE calving "parameters"? And approximately what year did you engage in the purchase ? (Perry Mason at your service) i do remember him stating that Major Leroy could throw a big one-not a heifer bull etc- But I am NOT clear anymore when that was-in relation to all this-Maybe this happened elsewhere with sons of Leroy or on his place-I dont know. i am still curious how the females that really had catastrophic results with that bull were bred-It does not have to be public and I am not in the mood to lay blame or sensationalize anything O0
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: aj on February 07, 2019, 08:52:40 AM
There is one fact out there. There are some Shorthorn bulls out there that are cow killers. You can't dance around it. Maybe not most of them. But a higher % than other breeds.....not counting the club calf mess.
Title: Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 07, 2019, 09:37:13 PM
There is one fact out there. There are some Shorthorn bulls out there that are cow killers. You can't dance around it. Maybe not most of them. But a higher % than other breeds.....not counting the club calf mess./// The unique genetic makeup that  have made them outdo themselves when you cross them on other breeds seems to mutate or react in just as extreme a manner when you breed them to the wrong short horn And there have have been instances where the same cow killer hasn"t thrown any monsters on other breeding or types. Llynette Janes herd is an example-she has a bunch of Leroy daughters and likes them very well. Her husband is strictly a salebarn type-one problem and the cow is gone.Still havent heard about the breeding on the bull in question other than he was a leroy son.Sounds like every calf was a monster no matter what the cow was-Or was that every bull calf? O0